Creating a DM paper&pen RPG game based on DnD/d20 3rd Ed.

[Lunever]

Split from this topic - b.

Well, since I'm playing a lot of D&D 3 and right now are about to continue a campaign with a story that is based much on Dungeon Master stuff, I probably could throw in a couple of ideas here.

1) d20 - suitable for DM?

That's a difficult question. The d20 system is a big step up from AD&D 2nd Edition, but it has many drawbacks. The big advantage of AD&D never has been a good design of game mechanics. It was always vastly inferior to more intelligent games like Ars Magica. The big advantage of AD&D always has been its archetypical setup. You don't need to explain a lot to get a newbie grasp the idea of an adventuring party consisiting of a fighter, a rogue, a priest and a wizard. Ever tried to explain a setting like the World of Darkness and what Clans the player can choose from to a newbie? AD&D is a lot more easy in that respect. However, d20 is a universal system, but it is not suitable for everything. I have an extenisve collection of the d20 mongoose game for Babylon 5. I am a B5 fan, and a dedicated d20 player, but they just don't mix well. Nice background, good merchandising for roleplaying B5 fans, but the result is a game system that is total crap because it isn't suited for what it is used for.
So how about DM?

DM will not suffer the above mentioned B5 problem because it is basically a like-minded fantasy game bulding upon similar archetypes as DnD does. DnD 3.5 offers a lot of options. So what options and what house rules are advisable? The classes can be tweaked very close to DM, as I will explain below. The magical spells will be more difficult to tackle, but first things first. Like any sensible paper&pen game DnD has a pretty linear approach, on contrary to logarithmical approaches used by DM engines. It isn't the same, but it's the best solution imho since I see the focus on playing, and not on dice calculations getting in the way of story flow.

2) Classes

Due to the awful merchandising policy of Hasbro of the Coast nearly every book contains a couple of new races, a couple of new classes, a couple of new prestige classes, a bunch of feats and a bunch of spells. Actually using all of these options will lead you far beyond the SRD and the only way to manage it is to silently use fan-written compilations, because WoC sends lots of cease&desist letters to their dedicated fans who dare to mention anything like that anywhere. In the end, WoC alone has published more than thousand character classes. You can combine a lot of them of course, and if you manage them cleverly (which can be a VERY complicated process), you can play an acceptable allrounder, which is good for a game like DM. In DM the idea is to advance toward all-archmaster, but with different priorities for different characters. This can be done in DnD 3.5 too by using a couple of specific mechanics:

Get the best game mechanics sourcebook ever imho, the "Unearthed Arcana 3.5".
Use the "Generic Classes" there. Do use them exclusively, that means, other character classes do not really exist, but can be emulated by the generic classes. The DM should retain the freedom to occasionally use a sourcebook-npc with non-generic classes for quick stats.

There are only 4 generic classes: Warrior, Expert, Divine Spellcaster, Arcane Spellcaster.

Tweak the spellcasters with the following house rule: Allow the Divine spellcaster to choose spells only from the lists of divine classes (i.e. cleric and possibly druid), allow the arcane spellcaster only to choose spells from the lists of arcane classes (i.e. wizard/sorcerer).

Rename the "warrior" to "fighter", and the "expert" to "ninja" and add ninja class features to the generic feat list. You can find ninja class features in Complete Adventurer, Rokugan Campaign Setting (Oriental Adventures/L5R), Way of the Ninja (OA/L5R)
Rename the "divine spellcaster" to "priest" and the "arcane spellcaster" to "wizard". Note that "fighter" and "wizard" do not anymore mean the same thing as in core DnD after that renaming. Note that the new "fighter" is almost as the original fighter, but has a broader choice of saves and skills. Note that the new "wizard" is more like a sorcerer, and the new "priest" is rather like a "favoured soul" than a cleric. Note that the ninja does not have to be a classical japanese-style masked infiltrator. If you find this confusing and don't insist on class names from original DM stick to the class names of the UA instead.

Now use the Gestalt-Classes system from the Unearthed Arcana. Basically you get a mix of 2 classes (inlcuding the class features from both) each level.
The gestalt rules are a bit short of description, so I recommend to interpret them like this: No matter what order a character takes classes, always calculate basic values optimally, each one separately: Take the best hit die as the first, take the best bsp class as first level (bspx4), take a number of individual class levels = ecl to separately calculate ba and each save, always taking the best combination. Allow reassigning of the gestalt-combination each level. For example a character might choose to be a warrior/arcane caster at ecl 1 and then choose to acquire a level of fighter/divine caster at ecl 2, giving him the class features of a level 2 fighter (and of a level 1 arcane caster and of a level 1 divine caster).

Use the Unearthed Arcana rule for additive caster levels, that is for spell parameters divine and arcane caster levels stack, but cap it to the ecl (that is a gestalt divine caster/arcane caster ecl 4 casts as level 4, not lvl 8; also a fighter/caster ecl 4 casts as level 4).

IMPORTANT: Use the spell point rules from the Unearthed Arcana. Treat the generic spellcasters as sorcerers. Add their spellpoints to a single pool and call it "Mana" (which we actually do for years now in our regular dnd campaigns).

As a rule of thumb, if a player wants a class feature not listed in the very short generic list, allow any class feature to be added, but it has the previous class features and the ba (if attack-oriented) and/or saves (if defense-oriented) of the class it is originating from as prerequisite. If that class is a prestige class it has the entry requirements of that prestige class as additional requirements.

Now you have a setting that almost exclusively uses game mechanics officially published by Wizards o.t.C. in just a single book and are pretty close to a class and mana system very like DM.

Except the question of spells, schools, domains and the DM magic runes. But that I will discuss in a follow-up post.

[Lunever]

Weapons: Also, use the Weapon group feats from the Unearthed Arcana. This represents well that original DM (albeit not RTC) internally uses different skills for differnt kinds of weapons. Combined with certain wide-spread feats this is a good representation of the DM combat moves.

Magic: DM and DnD are very different. DM (albeit not RTC) internally uses different magic skills associated with elememts an similar. DnD solely uses spells, at least for pre-epic characters.
Using domains and school specialization as a subsitute for runes is a bit crude imho. It is certainly better than nothing, but what we would really need would be a more Ars-Magica-like technique+forms system. There might be several unfinished basic ideas that possibly could be made into something like this. Runes could be assigned to schools, and certain wide-spread descriptors like the elements. Also, the system of the epic seeds (see Epic Level Handbook) could be tweaked for non-epic use. The result might be something that has the flair of DM, the flexibility of Ars Magica and would still be impleneted in DnD mechanics. But, despite recycling DnD components, it would rely heavily on a house rule set. Still I'd suggest to create such a system, which requires a bit af careful considering in advance.
Certainly anything is better for DM than a Vancian system.

[beowuuf]

Since my players haven't asked for a greater divisation from D&D other than perhaps a few more houserules along the way, I am happy to continue roughly as it had been to conserve my free time.

However, if you wish to set up another game with rules as suggested that closer fit the feel of DM, it might be an interesting endeavour. Certainly, I can set up a set of sub-forums here so noth games can run simultaneously.

[Lunever]

I've read again through the domains and schools of the original post from beo. Still, I'd consider a different approach. The idea with the domains and school augments strongly points toward the real original dm spells. However, a paper and pen setting needs a much broader range. Yet, if that broader range ist simply represented by the standard DnD magic, the DM flair is lost. And in my experience domains and such are not important enough to actually represent the flair of the magic of DM.

So what I suggest is:

Take the epic seeds. Manually scale them down to some non-epic seeds.
Make seeds closely aligned to the following descriptors:
- the 8 schools (Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Transmutation)
- the 4 elements (earth, water, air, fire) and/or the 5 energies (cold, acid, sonics, electricity, fire)
- the greater energies: positive (healing) energy, negative (draining) energy
- sub-schools (healing, translocation, glamer, etc..)
- other descriptors defined in the PHB

Since power runes are obsolete if you have spell levels, there are 18 DM runes.

Runes should be assigned to seeds.

Squeezings schools into runes might be a bit of a stretch, but probably its the best to capture the flair of DM magic. Of course the result would be the assignment of the dm runes to lots of non-dm spells, but since almost any custom dungeon also tweaked the runes, that isn't a bad thing imho.

Seeds should be clearly defined first. As long as there is no seed definition, above mentioned seed basics might result in the following first Runes suggestions:

Ya: DnD spells with the [Earth] descriptor and spells directly manipulating earth or stone, Conjuration spells conjuring nonliving matter (not healing or summoning spells unless they are earth spells too), some other spells manipulating nonliving solid matter

Vi: DnD spells with the [Water] descriptor and spells from the Healing subschool, and spells directly manipulating water, some other spells manipulating liquid matter, including all spells that stop bleeding

Oh: DnD spells with the [Air] descriptor and spells that directly manipulate wind and air, some other spells manipulating gaseous matter

Ful: DnD spells with the [Fire] or [Light] descriptor, some other spells increasing temperature or manipulating thermal energy or causing ignition

Des: DnD spells with the [Cold] descriptor or from the Necromancy school, spells that dispell effects

Zo: DnD spells with the [Force] descriptor, spells that have metamagic effects or otherwise abstractly influence magic

Ven: DnD spells with the [Acid] descriptor and spells dealing poison

Ew: DnD spells from the Summoning or Calling subschools, other conjurations or creation spells that summon or call creatures i.e. elementals or outsiders or constructs, spells that counter or undo summonings or callings

Kath: DnD spells with the [Electricity] or [Sonic] descriptor

Ir: DnD spells from the Evocation school

Bro: DnD spells from the Transmutation school altering nonliving matter, spells from the Enchantment school that enchant items

Gor: DnD spells from the Charm subschool

Ku: DnD spells from the Transmutation school altering the physics of living beings, spells that alter strength, spells that detect or analyse the physical presence or the weaknesses of creatures

Ros: DnD spells from the Illusion school, spells that detect or pierce illusions, spells that alter dexterity, spells that alter skills with at least some physical component (including thieving skills, but not knowledges or magic-related skills)

Dain: DnD spells from the Divination school, spells that alter intelligence or enhance the mind

Neta: DnD spells from the Abjuration school, spells that enhance wisdom or constitution

Ra: DnD spells with the [Light] or [Good] descriptor and spells from the Healing subschool, spells dealing positive energy (i.e. harming undead), spells that alter charisma

Sar: DnD spells with the [Darkness] or [Evil] or [Death] descriptor, spells dealing negative energy (bolstering undead, draining life), spells that alter constitution

[Lunever]

Simultaneous posting.

No, I don't wish to create another game, I was only trying to help along this project since I have a broad DnD experience. Using the Unearthed Arcana 3.5 from Wizards of the Coast to get classes and spellpoints pretty close to DM is an easy way that only uses officially published material. Creating a magic system that is based on the DM runes and features the DnD spells is more far from normal DnD.

If anyone is interested in tweaking official material into the DM flair, it might be interesting, but since it would require a bit of time it probably isn't useful if it won't be used within this project anyway.

[beowuuf]

I do hope someone else attempts a DM RPG game, preferrably going from the opposite direction as me, and takign the DM mechanics and either going homebrew or using what you outlined above to get a good match.

I like doing it my way for the simplicity of starting, but it is (of course) an RPG game that is tweaked for DM, instead of a DM game tweaked for RPG

I might move these posts to the creative endeavours forum, so they see more light and perhaps inspire someone else. A shame Mon Ful Ir proposed his D&D game when he did, it just seemed to miss catching anyone's imagination at the time.

[Lunever]

Well, thinking about it, the suggestion actually is better suited for a table paper and pen RPG rather than a DnD-based forum-RPG. If anyone should be interested it could be developed to a playable state. Using the generic classes and feats and schools and descriptors as dynamic tags will ensure you don't have to make new decisions for each sourcebook you want to implement. Using the seeds system would actually use the only good magic system WoC ever implemented in DnD.

If anyone else should be interested, we could make such a DM-d20. Still it would only be worth the effort if someone actually intends to use it for some campaign.

Aside from the rules set suggested, what I still really would recommend for the forum game too is using the spellpoints from the Unearthed Arcana, because the spellpoints are very very similar to DM mana, and if you add up divine and arcane spellpoints you get a relation between priestly and wizardly magic very similar to DM. You don't need to change anything else in your game to implement the spellpoints.

[Lunever]

Beo: Instead of splitting this thread of to a different section of the forum, can you move it back to "DM D&D game", as a separate thread? I think it would be better placed there, since it is about a DM D&D game.

[Lunever]

Back to topic:

To don't make things more complicated than necessary, let's use the rune associations above for normal DnD-spells, and reserve the idea of scaling the epic seeds down for some later to be introduced system of spontanoues magic like in Ars Magica.

Each character gets 1 rune per spellcaster level, no matter whether the spellcaster level is arcane or divine. A gestalt arcane/divine spellcaster gets both runes.

Ya, Vi, Oh, Ful, Des, Zo don't have prerequisites.

Ven, Ew, Kath, Ir, Bro, Gor have a prerequisite: 4 other previously learned runes.

Ku, Ros, Dain, Neta, Ra, Sar have a prerequisite: 8 other previously learned runes.

You get a number of spells as usual for the spellcaster class (similar to a sorcerer), but you can only choose spells that feature a school or subschool or descriptor that matches at least 1 of your runes.

If you have learned a spell that matches more than 1 of your runes, you gain "Metamagic Specialist" (PHB2) for this spell: That is, you can apply metamagic feats without an increase of casting time. If you do not apply a metamagic feat to a spell matching more than 1 rune, you gain +1 caster level for spell parameter instead (as if it was a wizard domain spell, UA).

If you have a spell that matches more than 2 of your runes, for the purpose of casting this spell you are exempted from the caster level cap: Normally (see above) even a gestalt arcane/divine caster cannot use more caster levels for spell parameter than he has ecl. So a gestalt arcane/divine caster level 4 who casts a spell matching more than 2 of his runes could cast it with level 8 spell parameters. He could use metamagic feats he couldn't normally use as long as the total Mana cost doesn't exceed 8.
If a character casts a spell matching more than 2 runes but doesn't have more casterlevels than ecl, he gets an additional casterlevel +1 bonus instead.



With this system you can completely intermix the flair of DM magic, DM's relation between priestly and wizardly magic (the support each other), and the whole range of DnD spells.

You can use this system even for a non-DM game. Simply kick the runes and let the players choose 1 school or descriptor each level. Schools with known widely-used subschools must be taken at 1 subschool per level for the non-DM approach.

[Lunever]

Spontaneous Magic:

DnD distinguishes between prepared spells (wizards, clerics, druids, paladins, rangers etc..) and spontaneous magic (sorcerer, bard, favoured soul etc..). Nearly all DnD magic is spell based. Nearly all spells are designed for tabletop combat. There are some elements of ritual magic here and there. Many adventures revolve around preventing the great ritual. The great ritual is a plot-only device, without being backed up by the magic system, and not even a level 100 PC could learn it regularly. There are some books though that toy with the idea of ritual magic, like the UA incantations, or 3rd party stuff like Relics&Rituals, but most of it will not see much use.

Ars Magica distinguishes between spell magic, spontaneous magic and ritual magic. All of them have the same basic system underlying. Rituals are basically spells made easier to cast at the price of a long casting time, and some long-term effects are required to be cast ritually. Rituals require expensive components (Vis). Spells are just that - spells you can cast at anytime. You can learn individual spells based on your specific skills in the different magic arts (whether you can learn a fireball depends on your skill in Creation and Fire magics). Spontaneous magic are spells devised on the spot, without having been learned before. Again, what spells you can improvise is based on your skills in the different magical arts, but you will get a lower result as you had with a properly learned spell.

What I'm aiming at is a bit like spontanoues magic like in Ars Magica, but for DnD purposes. In order to avoid confusion I will call this "Creative Magic".

I cannot cite the entire system of epic seeds here, they can be found in the Epic Level Handbook.

Basically, epic seeds are the raw elements of powerful epic magic. You can assemple new epic spells from them. Each has a spellcraft DC. If more than 1 seed is used for the resulting spell, their DCs add up. There are factors that increase that DC, and factors that decrease it (like a great ritual). From the DC results a number of days and a cost in gold pieces required to develop this spell. It is not explicitly described, but in theory you can mitigate the DC down to 0, which results in 0 days development time and 0 GP developement cost - Heureka, you can celebrate a big ritual to produce an effect you don't have in your regular grimoire. Many European Life Action Role Playing events use a similar system, with great success.

So all it would need to introduce this in DnD is to take the epic seeds and scale them a little down for normal non-epic characters.
For DM the seeds should match the runes, and a character can only use seeds that match his runes.
To be able to use this kind of magic should require a feat that has spellcraft and knowledge arcana/religion (or nature for druidic characters) as prerequisite.

This is a completely optional idea. If it is implemented it offers a lot of flair and flexibility.

[Lunever]

Aside from fixing some details for the creative magic part, it could be interesting to gather some information from DnD and from Beo's forum game:

Character Races: No problem with dwarves and elves. There are a lot of exotic races to be found in various DnD books, including of course lizardmen and the like. Some races should be a bit tweaked to get as a result creatures like Wuuf.

Monsters: Many DM monsters already have their direct counterpart in DnD: Screamers/Shriekers (albeit nonmoving in DnD), Mummies, Antmen (Formians), Giant Wasps, Purple Worms, Spectres, Couatls, Skeletons, Beholderkin, Stone Golems, Giant Dire Rats, Rusters, Giant Scorpions, Giant Spiderkin, Helmed Horrors, various Demons, various Dragons.
Some other might have to be fleshed out yet. If you take Monster Manuals I - V, Fiendish Codices, all those other books that contain a bunch of new monsters let alone all that 3rd party stuff you'll probably find a close match for nearly every DM creature. Anything left can still be created.

Campaign setting: Only a little can be taken from the game manuals about the world of DM. Much would have to be written. Of all things to do for a full DM paper&pen game, this might be the most intersting part, and the part best suited for a team effort.

[Lord_BoNes]

I'm currently designing my own OpenGL engine. I'm actually aiming to clone RTC (not DM itself) but, I'm in the midst of adding a D&D mode to my game. In the end, I hope it looks somewhat like Entombed (GFX wise) and plays like RTC (except when playing in D&D mode, which would be same-time turn-based, like Risk).

[beowuuf]

I have everything that is 'canon' (and there's not much) gathered in a word file. I'm trying to add all the references that are non-canon from this game. It's actually interesting some of the references (even just a character name or designation). Nexus remains a mystery, sadly.

It's my next project after compiling the game so far to somehow make that compilation available as a game resource. If someone puts up an area of the wiki, we could start populating it.

Some of the monsters are not directly compatible, others are. The stone golems, for instance, can be lifted pretty directly between the two, while the purple worm needs to be severely underpowered and resized to become the DM equivalent. As I don't have the actual D&D monster manual, I took the shrieker and restated it for the screamer... I might need to look to my old basic D&D books.

I think the wizard's eye beholderkin was actually directly equivalent to the wizard eye in D&D (or if not, there was another beholderkin that fitted). However, I know I'd love to put the beholder as a boss to the

The murafu I adapted for Ameena turned into a bit of a disaster. Originally a direct translation of the gnome to keep balance, the fact that the rat exists and has alot of abilities added knocked it as a race even as I removed the gnomish elements. Ameena being a rogue only compounded some of the issues, but RP wise Ameena is playing the character such that these are balanced. Certainly, no one else will be allowed to be a murafu as the race is currently written in my game!

[Lunever]

Of course it would be nice if anything here could prove useful for a new computer based DM/RTC/DnD-Clone.

An interesting reference already mentioned by Beo (I've not yet completetly browsed through):

http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=27851

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?iwng7z1zmm9

EDIT: Well, I did now browse through it - and while it is a very intersting AD&D 1st Ed project written and posted by a DM forum regular, it seems it does not have any direct relation to DM. Still it would be interesting to have Mon Ful Ir's input here.

[Lunever]

Beo: Regarding sources and 'canon'. I have an extensive DnD collection. When I finally had an entire large shelf full of DnD 3 books I had almost any information ever published about DnD3, but didn't find any information anymore, so while I kept my good old books as collectibles, I ceased to actually use them and resorted to fan-written compliations like pdfs containing all feats, all items, all spells and so on. So if you are searching for anything you don't have at hand, just ask.

In my current proposal we don't need much. Just the 3 core books, maybe some more monster manuals, the unearthed arcana, and maybe the epic level handbook. That's it. Well, and you can optionally add some ninja stuff from a couple of sources.

[beowuuf]

Sorry, I meant DM canon...writing at work. I meant for the storyline, there are some character names and of course Theron's quest/DM's stories that throw out some things

The d20srd seems to be comprehesive except for the few genuinely D&D world monsters and the character creation - I only have the 3.0 players handbook to back that up. The srd also has most of the unearthed arcana variants.

[Lunever]

Spell relations:

Since WoC alone has published more than 10000 spells (sic! the number of zeroes is correct) for DnD 3.5, there should be some equivalent for the small number of canon DM spells, and probably for those of custom clones with different spells too. For the latter some feedback of creators and players of such dungeons would be welcome.

Using a generic DnD rune system as suggested above might not always result in a match of runes between the new paper&pen DnD game and original DM. Yet imho that's the only way to actually make a DM-DnD game instead of writing an entirely new DM non-DnD game.

Since potions in DnD are created by feats or the spell Quick Potion, I'll skip potion spells or take non-potion variants instead.

Ya: Remove Fatigue (BED, Ku)
Vi : Cure Wounds (PHB, Vi/Ra)
Ful: Light (PHB, Ful/Ir/Ra)
Zo: Mage Hand (PHB, Bro)
Zo: Knock (PHB, Bro/Ros)
Zo: Magic Missile (PHB, Zo/Ir)

YaIr: Shield (PHB, Zo/Neta)
YaIr: Stoneskin (PHB, Ya/Neta)
ViBro: Neutralize Poison (PHB, Vi)
OhVen: Stinking Cloud (PHB, Oh/Ven)
FulIr: Fireball (PHB, Ful/Ir)
DesVen: Poison (PHB, Des/Ven)
DesEw: Dispel Magic (PHB, Des/Zo/Neta)
DesEw: Dismissal (PHB, Des/Ew/Neta)

[Lunever]

I have a strange phenomenon in IE 8 here. If I edit a post that has more than a few lines I can still continue to edit my post, but after every letter the view jumps to the beginning of the post, so I have to write blindly. Very annoying. Any idea why this is happening?

ZoVen: Bitter Vintage (R&R4, Ven/Bro)

Rewritten some runes in order to get better matches:

YaVenSar: Flesh to Stone (PHB, Ya/Ku)
YaBroDain: Fox' Cunning (PHB, Dain)
YaBroNeta: Owl's Wisdom (PHB, Neta)
YaBroRos: Living Prints (PHB, Dain - not a perfect match though)
ViBroRa: Mass Heal (PHB, Vi/Ra)
OhEwRa: Stonesight (AoM, Ya/Dain)
OhEwSar: Invisibility (PHB, Ros)
OhKathRa: Lightning Bolt (PHB, Kath/Ir)
OhBroRos: Cat's Grace (PHB, Ku/Ros)
OhGorKu: Locate Creature (PHB, Ku/Dain)
OhGorRos: Find Traps (PHB, Ros/Dain)
OhGorRos: Detect Secret Doors (PHB, Ros/Dain)
OhGorDain: Detect Magic (PHB, Dain)
OhIrRa: Daylight (PHB, Ir/Ra)
FulBroKu: Bull's Strength (PHB, Ku)
FulBroNeta: Protection from Energy (PHB, Neta/[Ful/Des/Ven/Kath], depending on energy chosen)
DesIrSar: Darkness (PHB, Ir/Sar)
ZoIrNeta: Scrying (PHB, Dain)

[Lunever]

YaEw: Arcane Mark (PHB, Ya/Zo/Bro/Ros)
YaIrDain: Protection from Spells (PHB, Zo/Neta)
OhEwKu: Mass Bull's Strength (PHB, Ku)
OhEwRos: Mass Cat's Grace (PHB, Ku/Ros)
OhEwDain: Mass Fox' Cunning (PHB, Dain)
OhEwNeta: Mass Owl's Wisdom (PHB, Neta)
OhKathKu: Bigby's Forceful Hand (Zo/Ir)
OhKathRos: Bigby's Grasping Hand (Zo/Ir)
OhIrRos: Haste (PHB, Ku/Ros)
ZoEwKu: Summon Monster (PHB, Ew/[Ya/Vi/Oh/Ful/Ra/Sar] depending on elemental/outsider chosen)
ZoEwRos: Tenser's Floating Disc (PHB, Zo/Ir)
ZoEwNeta: Claw of Force (SpC, Zo/Ir)
ZoEwNeta: Genius Loci (CM, Ew/[Ya/Vi/Oh/Ful], depending on elemental chosen)
ZoBroRos: Spell Turning (PHB, Zo/Neta)

Now of course you can combine runes that couldn't be combined in original DM because they were in the same tier. Rock to Mud for example would be a Ya/Vi/Bro spell.

[beowuuf]

No idea why IE8 is messign with your posting.


Note that Nexus, if you didn't already know, has a few news spells I was going to surprise my group with - off the top of my head, at least a petrify and a party heal.

Also, some of the effects of weapons (like freeze life or calm) might be good to map to spells and runes. DMII certainly has a few interesting effects liek the teleport of the tech shield.

[Lunever]

I already inlcuded the Nexus spells, taken from the Encyclopaedia.

Weapon effects like the teleport or magic map effects also offer good matches.

However, in the end it will be a DnD game, and the player will be able to choose from a pool of thousands of spells, among them the DM classics. Some classics are classical enough so you can count on them being used, like fireball, knock, invisibility, cure wounds.

The generic spellcaster will ensure that you only have a small spell number to handle during game despite having chosen them from a large number initally. The creative magic will ensure, that magic can adapt to stories.

The matches above were to test if the DnD spells are able to capture the magic flair of DM and its runes. Twas good to do that test though, since it made me correct some rune descriptions.

[ian_scho]

You can tell that I'm almost 20 years 'out of it' - I have no idea what Nexus is!... I assume it's roleplaynexus.com

[beowuuf]

DM: Nexus is the Japanese version of Dungeon Master that was in glorious 3D!

http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/251

Obviously, it would be fantastically awesome to get the English translation of the manual, so that we could have the final fragment of DM world canon!

[Lunever]

Hmm, don't we have any japanese regulars around we could ask?

[Sophia]

Or, you know, people who just happen to speak Japanese... I don't know where you'd find one of those

I can probably do something if someone has a zip of all the manual page images, in as high resolution as possible... that "slideshow" viewer on the encyclopedia is nice for viewing, but I don't know how to save pictures from it, and I'd need to zoom in some of those scans to decipher what some of the kanji (Chinese characters) are.

[Lunever]

Calm could be "Calm Animals" (PHB) or "Salamar's Quiet Contemplation" (R&R1).
Freeze Life would of course be "Time Stop".
The Tech Shield obviously would be "Teleport" along with a couple of similar spells (Dimension Door, Teleporc without error).

Aside from writing a few lines about non-epic seeds I think the game system is complete (of course any improvement feedback will be welcome).
From an SRD compilation probably almost anything here could be copied & pasted to a complete set of rules.

Now the focus can move towards the content: Monsters and Campaign Setting.

[beowuuf]

I guess Christophe would have the original scans? Or even an original of the book to scan?

[Lunever]

Hmmm, once upon a time in some early version of the encyclopaedia there was a pdf download. But in order to have a chance of finding them I'd have to dig out a very old machine I'm not using anymore currently. It'd be easier if Christophe still had those files.

Edit: But I don't even know anymore whether during that time the Encyclopaedia already contained Nexus.

[Lunever]

Monsters:

It is imho impossible to know all the creatures published. They are legion. Not even someone foregoing a real life beside DnD could possibly know them all.
There are some obvious WoC-sources like the core Monster Manual I, Monster Manual II - V, Fiendish Codices I - II.
Aside from that a host of minor WoC-books also contains a bunch of new monsters too.
And then there ist a lot of 3rd party stuff too.

So while I just don't know whether in some book there would have been a closer match, I can try to find some close matches. As I did with the spells, I'll prefere core and canon sources, but occassionally I will use other books too if they just offer a creature that is a much better match. There will be DM creatures leftover. It shouldn't be much of a problem to create them from scratch. Having the bulk of creatures taken from a monster manual will increase DnD cimpatibility and also will make it easier for a DM to manage them, and of course it will be closer to SRD material.

Prior to the usual DnD 3.5 short description the warning lines of the hint oracle could be added.
Seems that the canon manuals and hint books do not contain monster descriptions to add.

I'll first try to find some monster matches, then I'll doublecheck with what Beo already made.

DM monster: DnD monster

Screamers: Shriekers

A single Shrieker (CR1) isn't much of a threat, which is ok, since they are the weakest monster in DM to. A host of shriekers can be defeated easily too, but might be some work to get through and might cause at least some injuries. The shrieking befits the sound of a screamer. The DnD shrieker has no movement though - it is stationary. I'd suggest to have stationary shriekers as they are, and in addition have a more dangerous subrace of shriekers called Screamers, who are exactly like shriekers, except that they have a movement of #2. And they glow in the dark - but only in the visible range, not in the darkvision spectrum. So a knowledgeable tunnel runner might tell them apart by putting out the light and foregoing darkvision ... which is dangerous of course if other monsters are about. If the DM wants to create a more interesting an dangerous fungus encounter, he can add some violet fungi and various myconids.

Mummy: Mummy
The DnD mummy is CR5. Considering that a DM newbie usually starts the game with at least some ressurrected characters with at least some levels, and considering that a mummy usually was a difficult opponent that killed many newbie characters, this should be just fine. The DnD mummy has undead traits and thus can be turned, which matches their DM vulnerability to warcry/horn of fear. As in DM they are vulnerable to fire. They are tough and strong, as in DM. Well, and they make characters sick. That's some nice ice on the cake imho - like rusters who rust stuff. For higher-level parties mummy lords will do fine.

Antmen/Trollins: Formians

The Formian Warrior ist a very good match for the Antman. Trollins might be represented by Formian workers. Its stats only feature its natural attacks, but the illustration suggests they can wield weapons, so simply arm a formian warrior with a great spiked club and you get an even closer match. Well, formians possess poison though, so again adventurers need to be slightly more wary of them than in Elsie's good ol' dungeon. A combination of Formian warriors, workers and taskmasters in their hive can create an authentic atmosphere.

Stone Piles:

EDIT:
This is a very DM-specific monster.
Technically, a DnD Mudmaw with an additional poison ability (and the looks and evironment of the DM stonepile) is a good match.

[beowuuf]

Actually, the mummy is the one I toned down significantly, to accomodate these being starting creatures aswell as how they are in 3.5

I had the 2nd level version as little more than a zombie with no disease, no naturalk armour and significantly reduced strength. I believe only some small stealth survived for skills and toughness survived as a feat. Funnily, the party then never had to face them - they've taken a different path and facing a different undead.

The level 4 version the party faced was a mini-boss, and aside from reduced (but still significant) strength and a middle point to its natural armour. The disease and damage reduction I left alone for this version. I also downgraded the skills to the correct level, I forget what I dropped and what I reduced - I think half the stealth ones and I dropped it's perception abilities. And I dropped something like Great fortitide as the feat.

Your the screamer - again the party haven;t faced them, not sure how much I want to spoil it. I used the shrieker as a start point, and made it ambulatory with small trunk-like roots that could whip out for some minor damage as a fullround attack. However, the scream actually contained the main attack

Spoiler

spores, I forget what the attack was based upon.