Artificial Intelligence

[Chaos-Shaman]

alright, let's finish our holiday season, i have many places and people to see and be merry with, large family, unfortunately some of them have no power still.

have a look at the examples above, they're small and easy to program to do with the GUI. i was hoping to share with others who want an interactive dungeon, anyone want help playing around with it we can work it out as a bunch, together. that way there we don't have a dungeon too large to test and everyone sees how it can be done, keep it active. it's been since the end of October since i have even looked at it... there is quite a bit to explore on mechanical ideas.

the ai system will be as you wish, much of what Ameena said above is possible using RTC.

[Sophia]

Offhand, I can think of two fairly large problems with RTC's AI regarding ranged attacks:
- Centered monsters randomly select the side that missiles are launched. This means that a party with two members, both on the left, will be uselessly attacked on the right 50% of the time.
- Monsters on the other side of pits that cannot cross them won't do anything. A dragon on the "wrong" side of a pit won't launch fireballs at the party, even though there is no reason it couldn't.

If you're looking for things to improve, these would definitely be significant enhancements. I'm not sure how achievable they are given the inability to edit the actual AI behaviors, though.
(There are probably some fairly messy hacks using swaps and such that could do something resembling these things, but they'd not be very "portable" at all.)

[Seriously Unserious]

Sofia, It's great that you're developing a new DM clone engine, that does support scripting, but you really do not need to start crapping on people's work just because they're not using your engine. IMO you should really have more confidence in your abilities to create something that can stand on its own without dumping on everything else like this. It just ruins creativity and from what I've seen and heard of DSB its totally unnecessary.

People all have different preferences so many will not prefer your system to other systems, but that does not mean you aren't making a good system, it just means people all have different preferences. Your DSB is good enough to stand on its own without these divisive attacks on the "compatition". They are not really competition anyways, they're just different ways for everyone here to share in our love of Dungeon Master and unleash our creativity to make new dungeons based on this great game engine. If creativity is killed for RTC, DM Java, or any of the other clones out there, it'll also dry up for DSB too.

Let's get back to enjoying and encouraging creativity in all its forms. You'll find the more creativity that goes on for the all of the DM clones on this board, and those that aren't too, the more creativity will find its way into DSB and the more attractive it will become to dungeon developers.

[beowuuf]

Sophia is giving valid advice. Modify your post accordingly.

[Seriously Unserious]

Look, I've been seeing "give up and switch to..." type posts for the past year, nearly every time I see anyone post a question or idea about something in RTC and I just want it to stop, it's killing creativity in this forum and since that started I've been seeing very few new custom dungeons being released. IMO it's this whole attitude of attaching certain DM clone engines and those who prefer them that's causing this.

Perhaps in this case she is just giving advice but like I said, I've been seeing a very negative attitude going on towards projects for what a few members consider to be the wrong clone engine and it hurts the whole community and all DM clone engines. I just want that kind of behavior to stop, so we can all enjoy creating dungeons in whatever engine we prefer and can feel free to share our ideas, questions and creations without worrying about anyone starting a fight over it.

EDIT: I just did a quick search of the custom dungeons forums, and saw very few new dungeons either completed or under development over the past 2 years or so. I've also noticed that I rarely see the regulars who are known for releasing completed custom dungeons around here any more. My hope is that we can put the DM engine wars behind us once and for all and get back to being a community of DM lovers who support one another in our creative endeavors, regardless of what DM engine anyone prefers.

[terkio]

Who are fueling the engine wars ?

[Chaos-Shaman]

- Centered monsters randomly select the side that missiles are launched. This means that a party with two members, both on the left, will be uselessly attacked on the right 50% of the time.

yes, that's true, but in a true chance situation, that would be the way it works. it's better to be random, it also frustrates the player a little, makes them step in the way it's not acting as predicted. it's not much of a problem though. we could every two fireball attacks that the monster will swap from centre to 4x4, this would reset the health though so there would have to be a counter involved.

- Monsters on the other side of pits that cannot cross them won't do anything. A dragon on the "wrong" side of a pit won't launch fireballs at the party, even though there is no reason it couldn't.

hmm, i tested that. i have some guards that do shoot fireballs over pits, i didn't test a dragon. i will look at that one more time to make sure.

[Chaos-Shaman]

i have no fuel left terkio actually, this is the best way to resolve issues, get them out front, let everyone know and then we can all pull the lever and flush this out once and for all. i think everyone loves DM here no matter what engine. preference lies with abilities. i have to use a gui, no choice. so it is not unusual to prefer an engine like that. i am a visual person.
most people will not spend the time to build a dungeon from line programming, not a game that is 25 years old. they have to really love it. i think what Sophia is doing is noble, i can see she loves DM as much or more than the rest of us. this warrish behaviour has to end, if we all pool together we can make this a better place. competition makes for improvements, so we must forget the troubles we encounter and move towards functionality as a whole. everyone no matter what skill level can have input. this place has suffered too long. just think of what can be accomplished if everyone worked as one. i think we'd all be more productive if we can get past this. when does learning stop? i see no end

i motion to dissolve issues incurred from GGs departure, we must work together to keep DM alive. that's all we can hope for.

[Sophia]

The best way to not start a fight is to... not start a fight. This is a thread about improving the RTC AI, so I posted issues that I felt needed improvement, simple as that.

So, anyway.

in a true chance situation, that would be the way it works. it's better to be random, it also frustrates the player a little, makes them step in the way it's not acting as predicted. it's not much of a problem though. we could every two fireball attacks that the monster will swap from centre to 4x4

I disagree. I think it challenges (and/or frustrates) the player more when the monsters actually attack effectively. Unfortunately, 4x4 monsters attack a random side, just like a centered monster-- so swapping types around won't actually fix anything. I did a bit more testing and found a worse problem, anyway. A monster on the "wrong" side won't move over. I put Zed on the left, walked up to a swamp slime on the right, and went to sleep in front of it as it uselessly shot a dozen poison slime shots past me on the right. So, it's no longer even unpredictable, but rather just predictably harmless. All of this could possibly be fixed with teleporters that put the monster on the proper side, although I haven't done any RTC editing in many years now so I am not sure of the details or whether it's actually possible. It also won't fix centered or 4x4 monsters, of course.

i tested that. i have some guards that do shoot fireballs over pits, i didn't test a dragon.

I did a bit more testing as well. As it turns out, you're right; the monsters are perfectly happy to attack the party if they're facing the proper direction, but won't generally turn to face the party, especially if they don't have room to maneuver. A monster on a 1x1 "island," which was my initial test case, will just stand there. If there is space to walk around on the other side of the pit, they'll sometimes end up facing the proper direction after taking a step. This means this problem can probably be worked around by allowing more space on the other side of pits, and I think teleporters to reorient the monster into an attacking position could help, too.

[Seriously Unserious]

teleporters to reorient the monster into an attacking position could help, too.

That's a very good idea and simple enough to implement wherever needed. A simple party activated trigger, activating a monster activated teleporter acting as a spinner on the monster side of the pit ought to do the trick.

@Sophia: Please do continue your work on DSB. We do need more and diverse DM clone engines as that makes this community more attractive to more members. I can fully understand your desire to have more custom dungeon projects going on your engine, when I checked recently there were only 4.

I have no problem with doing a mini dungeon on DSB when I'm done Castle Lynchgate to see the difference in design work, IMO I'd be in a good position to offer you suggestions on things you could do to improve DSB and make it more attractive once I've played around with it a bit. I am committed to doing my Lynchgate series on RTC though as I have done too much work there and much of it reusable across projects to abandon it now, plus I do still like RTC and consider it a great engine for Dg-like games. Regardless, I will finish Castle Lynchgate before I start anything else though, otherwise I'll end up with another hoard of unfinished projects hanging around in limbo, and I don't want to inflict that on the community, my partners who are helping me with the graphics work, or myself.

[Chaos-Shaman]

Unfortunately, 4x4 monsters attack a random side, just like a centered monster--

i will investigate this on the weekend

- Monsters on the other side of pits that cannot cross them won't do anything. A dragon on the "wrong" side of a pit won't launch fireballs at the party, even though there is no reason it couldn't.

well, i had a look at the test dungeon and my guards cast fireball over pits that they can't cross. i cloned a guard and assigned the fireball for distant attacks, maybe the in game dragon won't attack but the cloned one will. i will do an example.

[Chaos-Shaman]

ok, the test worked out. maybe it was an older version that didn't work. i used the default dragon.

http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/b2gqqn

[Sophia]

ok, the test worked out. maybe it was an older version that didn't work. i used the default dragon.

No, read my second post. I already explained that after further investigation the issue turned out to be facing, not that the monster inherently won't attack.

Try this: http://pastebin.com/rfuHg7k3

In this test, you can actually observe both issues:
The dragon will not attack the party from the default position, because it will not turn to face the party. However, by walking around to where it is facing front, it will attack.
Around half of the dragon's fireballs will come out on the right side even though the test party member is on the left.

[Chaos-Shaman]

ok, i'll have a look right now, but here is the second issue solved. try sleeping in front of the slimer.

http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/cakgk9

[Chaos-Shaman]

ok, i tested the dragon attack i posted and i think i see what is happening. you're right, it won't attack unless it turns to face the party and not always, but what i think is happening is the monster is trying to find a way to confront the party infront, so it opts to move rather than range attack, this does not seem to be a bug because if the party stays put, the dragon if it faces you while trying to move closer to the party by going around the pits can still attack, the range attack still happens but less likely. so the dragon can still attack, just not as often. because the dragon is so slow it may take a while. i'll play with it a little more.

[Sophia]

ok, i'll have a look right now, but here is the second issue solved. try sleeping in front of the slimer.

It's not possible to sleep in front of this swamp slime, because it's centered, so half of its projectiles will come out on the correct side. However, as far as I can tell, half its projectiles still come out on the wrong side also, so it's not a solution to the second issue.

the dragon can still attack, just not as often. because the dragon is so slow it may take a while

Start the example I pasted to you and do not move. Just stay where you are, with the dragon in front of you, facing left. Go to sleep. Let the game sit for as long as you want. The dragon will neither turn nor attack.
But anyway, that in itself isn't a huge issue because it can be worked around with teleporters.

[Chaos-Shaman]

It's not possible to sleep in front of this swamp slime, because it's centered, so half of its projectiles will come out on the correct side. However, as far as I can tell, half its projectiles still come out on the wrong side also, so it's not a solution to the second issue.

the slimer moves from side to side and it will hit you, you can't sleep with it in front anymore, it is what you asked for, as you know there is a chance the spell will miss, it works fine. what do you want it to do? if you are refering to having a 100% hit, that's not possible.

now, as for the pit problem

http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/yjwpjk, the dragon is less dunce he will attack you, the dragon keeps trying to find a path as well

[Chaos-Shaman]

please tell what other problems you know of, i'll have a look.

[Chaos-Shaman]

oh, i just checked my last update, the file was a mess. i worked on it today and have an ai update. major changes

http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/yjvg2k

deth spy knight: please hold for a few seconds and watch what the deth knight does.

play around with running away and sleeping picking up the dagger, see if the knight follows and spies from a viewing distance checking to see what items you may have. steal from the knight as he fumbles to do his next tasks while you use your theiving skills.

i'd love to here what you think guys

[Seriously Unserious]

I'll take a look at it as soon as I can, definitely before the end of the weekend.

[Seriously Unserious]

I've played around with the Dungeon AI Tests 2 and 3, I've D/L'ed to other AI tests to look at and well get back to you on them later on when I've had a chance to test them out.

@Test Dungeon 2: The behavior of the beholders was interesting, it was definitely harder to blast them with fireballs as they would attempt to move out of the way whenever possible. This has possibilities for creating challenging dungeons with each individual monster being more of a challenge, rather then having to spam the dungeon with huge hordes everywhere. Each individual fight with a monster becomes more meaningful. I didn't really see the point of the knight in this test though.

@Test Dungeon 3: The knight's behavior makes more sense in this test, stalking the party to steal specific items, sometimes attacking the party under certain circumstances and running away whenever he steals something. I can see a use for the stalking behavior for my next custom dungeon project, where things like this will be helpful in building the story and setting up. Especially in areas where the party has entered a large town and will likely encounter the odd lightfingers every now and then. Used in a different way, this stalking behavior could also create different effects too.

[Chaos-Shaman]

ai 1 worked crude, yeah ai 2 was really messed up, i didn't know, heh, but ai 3 works well.

the knight works independantly, no teleporters or monster attractors. he can be given way more options on attacks, it's endless possibilities. he will always stalk the party at 2 or 3 tiles away of course this can be changed, checking for items in the party's hands and who is in the party and i think i can add a relay for the mouse, can i check the inventory somehow? i only did the fools dagger, if you pick it up and put it into the party hands, he will attack the party then rob them. i need help with the stealing though, he moves in and if he bumps into you, he can steal from the party, to make this work well i need to be able to kill the monster. right now the dagger and the sword go into the knights stolen storage room, the party needs to steal the key off the knight and open it. if he steals the key it is placed back on the floor and it's hard to see.

does anyone know how to kill a monster at any one place in the dungeon without stepping on a damager or spell? is there an action that can be performed?
what does the Action KILL (ALL) MONSTER DO?

any help would be great guys..

[Seriously Unserious]

There is an attack called Steal, which the gigglers and thicket thieves use. You could use that instead of the bump into party attack if you don't want him to bumping into the party, but rather doing a more stealthy grab and run.

what does the Action KILL (ALL) MONSTER DO?

I think it kills all monster on the current level and/or of a specified type?

It would probably require some testing to figure it out for sure. Unfortunately GG never published a list of what all the actions available in RTC actually do. We were pretty much left to our own devices to figure them out by trial and error.

[Chaos-Shaman]

There is an attack called Steal, which the gigglers and thicket thieves use. You could use that instead of the bump into party attack if you don't want him to bumping into the party, but rather doing a more stealthy grab and run.

well, you sort of figured out what i was doing, but here is how it goes, when the knight is in front, he has an attack that steals, the bump you heard is added sound ambient, i put it there to let others know what is happening, i left a few clues actually so others can figure it out. stealing is not the problem, losing what they stole on the swap is. so what i need to do is kill the monster, he'll drop the items and die into another monster type of what ever chosen. this will complete the ai and then we'll have full control of every move.

Sophia, you asked me 2 questions on what would help RTC out, i gave my best valid answers that i thought solved the situation, now i need you to help me out with RTC, so please for the love of DM, tell me if you know or not how to kill a monster. this is one BIG thing that i need to do. i consider you the guru of RTC, so if you don't know then nobody else will either. i think this is the first question i have ever dared to ask you

[Sophia]

Sophia, you asked me 2 questions on what would help RTC out, i gave my best valid answers that i thought solved the situation, now i need you to help me out with RTC, so please for the love of DM, tell me if you know or not how to kill a monster.

I don't agree that your answer to the issue of what to do about monsters shooting on the wrong side solves anything at all, but, on the other hand, I don't actually use RTC in any significant way any more so my opinion on the issue is ultimately irrelevant.

As for how to kill monsters, there is ACTION_KILL_MONSTER of course, which is probably what you want in this case. It does not take a type, which means that it is limited to being triggered by monsters that step on a floor trigger, but that seems to be your goal, anyway. (It might also work with an attack method, but I'm not sure) So, yeah, if you want to kill monsters that wander into a certain square, you can just have a trigger opby by whatever monster (or by monsters in general) that activates an ACTION_KILL_MONSTER action, and anything that steps on that trigger and fires it off will drop dead.

(As an aside, I'm not particularly sure I deserve the praise you've given me. My RTC knowledge is pretty old and outdated. I moved on a long time ago.)

[Seriously Unserious]

About the most knowledgeable RTC developer I now of is Zed5Duke, as far as I know, he's legendary for his prolific release of dungeons and use of devious traps and puzzles for RTC. Maybe he knows something that can help you, but I haven't seen him around in a while, so you'd probably have to PM him your question and a link to this thread to get his attention.

[Chaos-Shaman]

I don't agree that your answer to the issue of what to do about monsters shooting on the wrong side solves anything at all, but, on the other hand, I don't actually use RTC in any significant way any more so my opinion on the issue is ultimately irrelevant.

well, i tried but i did solve the problem of sleeping in front of the monster, the party can't do that anymore, and as for shooting, if there is only one character in the party, it is impossible to have 100% hit on 4x4, that is the way the game is designed. what i did was move the monster back and forth to stop the monster from staying put, so it will get you no matter what. a better way is to just leave them centred, they'll never miss, it all can be programmed in, depends what the programmer wants. your comments are relevant, don't down play your knowledge, you know more than you let on.

[Chaos-Shaman]

As for how to kill monsters, there is ACTION_KILL_MONSTER of course, which is probably what you want in this case. It does not take a type, which means that it is limited to being triggered by monsters that step on a floor trigger, but that seems to be your goal, anyway. (It might also work with an attack method, but I'm not sure) So, yeah, if you want to kill monsters that wander into a certain square, you can just have a trigger opby by whatever monster (or by monsters in general) that activates an ACTION_KILL_MONSTER action, and anything that steps on that trigger and fires it off will drop dead.

that is too bad, i know how to kill a monster if it steps on a tile, what i need to know is how i can programme the monster to die with no triggers, or spells, no objects. i am looking for an Action or something of the sort that can kill the bastard to drop items stolen so i can safely swap the monster without losing an important key or otherwise. it is VERY IMPORTANT that this action can take place, then it will be that much easier to desgn the ai. so far i can find no way to do this

any suggestions are welcome guys, otherwise, the stealing part i will have to use a go around, once a monster steals an object they can no longer be controlled or, like i have now, they steal the object and drop it off somewhere and then i can swap.

[Chaos-Shaman]

ok, i could send him a message. i have tried before SU, i was ignored. i think i'll give bones a try as well.

[Seriously Unserious]

Other then what's been said above, you can have the death of a monster triggered by having the party click on the monster, which can trigger an action that kills the monster.