Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Discuss your creative projects: game development, writing, film making or any thing else, fantasy related or otherwise! Talk about art you like, display your own artwork or stories, or offer help and insight.
Forum rules
Please read the Forum rules and policies before posting.
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

Wow - got a little emotional with all the power... :)
http://store.steampowered.com/app/71719 ... on_Master/ is now LIVE...

Image

... and yet: Chaos Strikes Back is going to be added (3/10 levels finished) and update 1.04 will fix a lot of balance issues: you will finally see Warcry scare off badguys, etc. :) [but not everyone: that was a real dumb cheat of the original]

Thanks again for everyone who has supported this daft venture: 30 years on, I salute you DM, :).
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sera
*BLUE* not Purple
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Stafford, UK

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sera »

I finally had a go at playing it last night, but i got up to the door in the "make a wish" part where i think you have to use the ful bomb to blow the door open? however it doesnt seem to give me an option to use it, so i am kind of stuck there right now. XP

also, in my typical fashion, i am running around with hissssa only. XD
Immortal Dungeoneer.
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

Ha, I always had a soft spot for Hissssa: I swear there was a cheat somewhere that hinted the fight with the Red Dragon would be much easier if you had Hissssa on-board - so he was ALWAYS in my party.

Ok, little hint - and bless you for playing! - there are little alcoves containing Ful Bombs: you can press 'M' key to bring up a quick-menu option, and here you can select 'ITEMS' - choose that and assign to a hotkey 'H' or 'J' and you have now assigned Ful Bombs to thrown. Feel free to experiment: I've made these only hurt doors and badguys - and if you use it, the alcove will always re-stock one.

In your quickmenu view, you can also assign weapons and skills: warriors sadly have the least-balanced skills at present - I am currently remedying this.
Don't worry, later on Axes will work fine with the doors, :)...

The combat: currently in the early levels it is quite easy to be one-hit-killed, so kudos for taking on such a challenge!

Am working on an update btw that finally gets WARCRY working, so you can watch badguys flee! (but unlike the original, only works against SOME enemy types)


I should really make a little demo video of this: the RPGMaker menus are... well, very clunky. So also want to re-write those too.
And sorely tempted to get 1.04 out soonish to address a lot of these issues.

[And then aim for v1.05, which will have CSB in it too!]

Sera: you are a star - thankyou for playing! Happy to help - if the game is just too bad or frustrating, then just let me know: you are under no obligation to complete a game you might not enjoy ;)
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sera
*BLUE* not Purple
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Stafford, UK

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sera »

Hehe, interesting! so far i have not died at all yet solo-ing the game with hissssa, only taken a few heavy hits which was about 1/3 of his total health. itll be interesting to see how the later levels go with just the one character. I have a habit of hard-moding these kind of games XD

I shall give it another go tonight, but so far i am liking it! Just the parts where i didn't fully understand how to assign weapons and all that stopped me from going further.

I do have one question though; is experience a set amount? or is it split evenly depending on the amount of characters you run with? If its the latter, I can imagine hissssa is going to be rather OP near the end levels. XD
Immortal Dungeoneer.
User avatar
Sophia
Concise and Honest
Posts: 4239
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:50 pm
Location: Nowhere in particular
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sophia »

Steam really is a convenient platform. I kept forgetting to actually give this a try, but being able to just grab it in the background and then click one thing to play it was really great. Was it a lot of trouble to get it on there?

My thoughts on the game itself are... well, let's say, less positive. I'll try to keep this constructive, of course, because I know firsthand what it's like to be a lone programmer working on a pretty big project and I know the difficulties involved in trying to produce something playable with any amount of polish. Still, it's not going to be a lot of sunshine and pretty flowers.

I honestly have no idea what RPG Maker is capable of, but it seems pretty clear that its focus is making games that resemble Japanese console RPG's. On the other hand, DM is quite a different sort of animal. Bridging this gap is an interesting challenge, but, in all honesty, I am not sure you have. The resulting game just feels clunky, and often ends up feeling like it is in a sort of worst-of-both-worlds space between the two genres it is trying to bring together.

As an example, I was never really able to get into the combat in Super DM at all. It has some commonality with action RPGs, but a lot of the time seems like there isn't really any difference between trying to do anything clever and mashing the F key. It seems to have neither the wonderful frantic quality of DM combat nor does it really incorporate any of the strengths of traditional JRPG styled combat either. It doesn't help any that this game suffers from the all-too-common syndrome in RPGs that your CPU-controlled allies are complete idiots: I gave Chani a rock, told her to use it, and pressed K and she went running up to the monster and got herself killed. Personally, I would've gone for more of a tactics RPG approach to combat, but that adds a good bit more complexity.

The puzzles of DM have been watered down to nothing by the limitations of the game engine, too. Most of the time, you just walk up to something and it more or less asks "do you want to do the thing required by this puzzle?" Keys are automatically paired with their proper keyhole, anywhere you could throw a boulder is just automatically prompted, and so on. That's mostly because the kind of fully-interactive world that DM had is generally not how a JRPG works-- but it makes the game suffer as a result. Classic JRPGs generally don't make you care about light, food, or water, and as a result, this mechanic just feels grafted on in an unsatisfying way. Not being able to save food or torches for later (and, apparently, no ful spell, either, or at least none that I found) is just bizarre and annoying.

On the other hand, many of the sorts of things that make JRPGs fun seem to be getting lost as well, because you're trying to remain generally faithful to DM. So the attacks and spells (at least that I've seen) are generally rooted in DM's more mundane world as opposed to the kind of outlandish things that JRPG characters can pull off. You don't have any weird character classes-- no summoners, pirate captains, dancers, mad scientists, mages who clone monster abilities, or whatever. It's the DM dungeon, so you're never going to find an airship, either.

Oh, and thrown projectiles go through walls. It's a minor thing, and I know you're aware of the issue, but... c'mon. Really?

Anyway, one last important point: I don't know all the legal nuances, but you're on really shaky ground incorporating original DM graphical assets into this game. As the author of DSB, this may be a somewhat hypocritical thing to say, but I've deliberately kept DSB sort of under the radar. On the other hand, Steam is a global platform, Valve has a lot of lawyers, and Steam's guidelines specifically say not to list "content you don't own or have adequate rights to," which... well, you don't. Obviously, nobody evaluating the app noticed, so you're still under the radar for now, and not charging any money makes the whole thing come across a lot more innocently, but still. You have a large amount of original content, too, so I'd recommend reworking things so you don't get bitten down the line.

Hopefully I wasn't too mean and/or discouraging. I was more going for, as it says over there, "concise and honest." :mrgreen:
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

Wonderful! Thanks Sophia! You are my first reviewer! Thanks for taking the time to play this.

Ok, yep seems a pretty accurate description of the situation.
I think what I wanted to do is try and see if it was possible to tell a story through this engine. Yes, they are so different in approaches that perhaps both suffer,

I am currently replacing a lot of the menu-functionality and will amend the game to give more user actions.
As to original content: ah yes, the bestiary and intro screens have original artwork - was meant to replace those - so that'll be in there too.

~~~

Yes, it's a white-elephant: however, as author of DSB, would you ever consider using Steam as a distribution platform?
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sophia
Concise and Honest
Posts: 4239
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:50 pm
Location: Nowhere in particular
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sophia »

Thanks for taking the time to make it! I may not have had a particularly positive review but, as I mentioned, having been there and done that, I'm definitely cognizant of the challenges of being a lone developer trying to make something.

I think that telling a story is a worthwhile goal, but I honestly haven't seen too much of that so far. I've only just arrived at level 5, so maybe there's something deeper in the dungeon, but, on the other hand, I feel like I've played enough that if there are going to be more story elements they should have shown themselves by now. I haven't seen any cut scenes or major dialogue or the like, though. With the large number of champions (and me staying true to my DM playstyle and only taking two) maybe I've just missed them...

Anyway, I don't think I'd ever use Steam to distribute DSB. Certainly not until I'd managed to fully replace the graphics, so it didn't contain any FTL content.
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

That's cool: actually that's brilliant.
You gave me inspiration - I had a brainwave as a result of this conversation and have now added these things:
1/ projectiles no linger go through walls, so will massively increase their range
2/ followers are a bit dumb: so am applying different ranges to them and this seems to be working
3/ warrior skills are lame, as said have implemented warcry too.

The dungeon layout itself I won't change: thing is I began writing this at level 1 and my whole level-generation got better as I moved down. I am working on a CSB dungeon and it is so much nicer to play. I also designed this version to be a lot more casual than the original - would only wish I could hear from a non-DM player... but hey.

But of course, even with all of this, the RPG engine has limitations.


back to your other point:
Steam does offer some really nice distribution options: as well as uploading the core 'game' engine to play dungeons, it allows users to add two tool-apps to the same steam submission: in addition, custom dungeons can be setup to export saves from the editor to the Steam workshop.

So, yes after a paintjob, I did immediately think of DSB. [RTC would of course be an equally good fit, with a sizeable array of wokrshop dungeons already to share... however it would, you know, need an author, ;).]

DSB would also benefit as well if the workshop could be tweaked to allow lua scripts too: this would mean you could inspire your fanbase to create custom engine features that I know DSB is capable of (and given how Grimrock I was built with lua scripting, there is already a potential group out there who would instantly 'get it')



~~~~and finally,
I do only hope that my game, with all its flaws, is not detrimental to the franchise:
Q: do you think, if it ever became popular, that the RPGMaker version is likely to put people off Dungeon Master?
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sophia
Concise and Honest
Posts: 4239
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:50 pm
Location: Nowhere in particular
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sophia »

Improvement is always good. :mrgreen:

I can understand not wanting to go back and revisit old material, but, of course, keep in mind that the top of the dungeon is the first thing the player is going to see-- and if they don't remain interested, they are never going to see the later parts. If your ability to make levels has greatly improved, it might actually be worth it to go back and revise some of the early mechanics, because the overall flow of the game will be better.

"Detrimental to the franchise" is a very negative thing to say, and it's also very difficult to quantify. I mean, it's a game with "Dungeon Master" in the name that (in my opinion, anyway) doesn't actually feel all that much like Dungeon Master, so there's that.
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

I totally agree, :). Re-visiting the older material has been some fun. What I've not done is revisit the menus and combat-mechanics... and now I have.
I have found a solution that many others did not see, so am very happy about that. Followers now also hang-back if holding spells or items rather than rushing in... just need to add an exception for those with bows too... so a v1.04 is soon in the offing to help address a lot of issues.

I did have to check the 'DM' bit - I know this is not the same league, but wanted to make sure was not offending anyone. ;).
As far as DM goes, this is some sort of low-budget JJ Abrams reboot that all true fans can just ignore... that sort of thing I can live with. :)

Well, will go back in and have another go: see if I can keep anyone interested in the game long enough to finish it. Level 5... that is impressive.

Have a look into Steam too: far too much quality DM stuff gets made that not enough people see...
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

Thanks again Sophia and Sera - took your advice on-board and released an update that addresses a lot of your points... yeah, going back, it was not as good as I remembered it - so was a healthy exercise!
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sophia
Concise and Honest
Posts: 4239
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:50 pm
Location: Nowhere in particular
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sophia »

I gave the new version a play and I'm really not sure what's going on with it. I took the same party, Sonja and Chani. As an aside, I felt like their sound effects were backwards. Chani gave a triumphant "hyaaa!" while Sonja had an upbeat "thank you!" But anyway. I went down to level 2 and set to adventuring, and promptly noticed that I was unable to hurt the mummy at all. Numerous sword whacks didn't do a thing, so I ended up fleeing further into the level. I found a pile of rocks and proceeded to throw all of them at the mummy, and it obligingly just stood there and let me do that. It also took like 30 rocks but at least they actually did some damage. After all this, it left behind an arrow which, when I tried to pick it up, bounced off my character and went into the wall where it was now inaccessible.

At this point I stopped playing because I figured something is possibly broken...
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

Thanks for the feedback - it certainly is a super-tough first monster. Let me check.
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sera
*BLUE* not Purple
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Stafford, UK

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sera »

I gave the new version a go as well and i have also had the same issues with monsters being unkillable with melee weapons. screamers are still easy to kill but mummies and beyond were invulnerable to melee attacks until I levelled up by a lot. Hissssa is currently UM master level and he can barely make a dent in rock monsters, beholders, and those green tentacle slime creatures despite having nearly 200 strength.

I also have to grumble at the lack of food drops in the dungeon as well. screamers and worms should drop food like in the original.
Immortal Dungeoneer.
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

You two are stars! Consider the new patch uploaded in your honour! :)
I have probably over-cooked the balance the other way, but let me know... thanks again.
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sera
*BLUE* not Purple
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Stafford, UK

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sera »

the invincible enemy issue seems to have gone now, so thats good. just a few more things which i feel need seeing to

- vorpal blade, ive only been able to kill elementals with ful bombs, cant even touch ghosts. ive picked up a vorpal blade earlier but doesnt show in my equip to use.
- wasps, ive had several instances where i am instakilled by them without getting a hit in.
- poison, not sure if the above is related, but ive also been instakilled from full health occasionally when struck by the poison.
- food, still dont see much of it, screamers, worms and rats dont drop any either.
- torches, once used, theyre gone for good, so most of the time im playing in the dark. while its still sorta visible, id like to see more light options, maybe a light skill would be a nice addition?
Immortal Dungeoneer.
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

I've play-tested this game a lot, but mainly with 4 champions... I have done a Tiggy-run and can survive, but the one-hit kills are a bane: so have moderated poison and criticals to help with this.

food and light: killing worms and screamers gives food now, killing immaterial beasts gives a light boost.

basic light: torches last longer, basic light range increased, so not as claustrophobic

there is now a new 'common' class for weapons and armour: so everyone can now carry a range of weapons, including vorpal, axe, sword, helmet, chainmail etc - gives everyone something to wear and carry in combat... their stats will dictate success.

so even though fighters can pretty-much own monsters in H2H now, other classes will struggle, a lot: but then they should have other optins, like ranged, magic, skills etc...

and finally... to help play-testing, opened a Tavern in-game: all 50-60 characters can now be assembled and a shortcut to the deeper dungeons can be provided, if you so choose.


posting update now... hope this is more to your liking...
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sera
*BLUE* not Purple
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Stafford, UK

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sera »

the fix seemed to have added the vorpal blade i found earlier as well, awesome! =)

also, i hope you arent frustrated with the suggestions ive been making, i also need to take into consideration that im only using one character as well >_< hissssa is an archmaster now and he certainly feels like one XP. all this is a learning curb, but im really enjoying it so far, im starting to get very excited for chaos strikes back with its complex dungeon.

the custom dialogue between hissssa and lord chaos was a nice touch, wasnt expecting that =) though curious question, do all the characters have their own dialogues?
Immortal Dungeoneer.
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

If I have one happy customer, it's all been worth it :) thankyou!
I LOVE feedback - and yes, ALL champions have their own banter with Lord Chaos. [NB: Hissssa also has one bespoke dialogue later on, as he's one of my faves ;).]

Playing as one-player, as a fighter, is such a bold choice that I need to support it: that said, I've now assembled over 50 playable characters, all can now be included in a party up to 4 with all sorts of skills - balancing will be an issue!

For reptiles (and thieves) , I have toyed with the idea of night-vision: that might yet happen.

Other class-skills now include: winged beasts take zero-damage from pits - whilst big beasts take double-damage from falls, undead do not need to eat, fae and forest-folk will have magic-footsteps as innate skill.

The size of the party also effects speed of food, water and light consumption: professions of ninja, priest, wizard and fighter all affect food / water consumption too.

I suspect it is far too easy to play, but then I have to bear in mind that I want younger players to enjoy it too, so while there is fantasy-violence, have been mindful of content (profanity, gore, sex etc) when building this thing: surprisingly simple to do, but probably means is completely 'unmarketable', ;).

The CSB dungeon is coming on and it works better than I hoped... but even with original RTC maps and walkthroughs, getting it all to fit together is a real brain-teaser!

I hope its still a challenge; it is NOT Dungeon Master, but I hope people appreciate that its a 'faithful-as-can-be-given-the-platform' tribute.
So yes, Sera - and for anyone else - go for it! Forum feedback is the very lifeblood of these things! More please!
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sophia
Concise and Honest
Posts: 4239
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:50 pm
Location: Nowhere in particular
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sophia »

So, I've played the new version. Here are my thoughts!

It's still kind of glitchy. The weird glitch where defeated monsters go flying backwards into the wall and drop their items inside the wall seems to still exist-- most of the time it's something inconsequential, but I did lose a potion this way, which was annoying. Throwing rocks and other ranged attacks also still seems to be glitchy, as there were times that I threw a rock too early and the monster was not aligned with the attacker, but the rock hit anyway. There have been other times where I'm not sure what is going on really; it seemed like a thrown rock knocked back an entire group of monsters.

The ally AI doesn't really feel like it's any better. In fact, quite honestly, I feel like it might even be worse. Allies sort of zip about with movement animations that don't really feel like they correspond to the direction they're going, and it's almost impossible to tell what they're actually doing. I told Sonja to throw rocks and pressed K, and she warped all around and ended up in melee range anyway. Later on, I told Chani to use poison bolts and sent her out, and she proceeded to zoom around spamming poison bolts in every direction except actually at the monster. Most of the time I just attacked with one champion because the AI assistance is not exactly helpful.

(That said, the monster AI seems to be fairly stupid, too. The monsters seem to blunder around attacking the air, mostly, and there have been plenty of times I've stood on the other side of a wall and the monsters seem unable to grasp the idea of going around a corner and looking for me...)

I also noticed that the "Time is of the Essence" puzzle seems like it's impossible unless you do a diagonal move. Maybe this was by design, but the way it ended up working, one party member was on one side of the wall and the other was on the other side. They were able to reunite because the follower sort of glitched through the wall as I kept walking up... so the whole thing felt more like I broke it and got around it rather than actually solved it properly. (I also pressed K wondering if it would do anything. It'd be kind of cool if that worked...)

Oh, and, a scroll advised me to "stock up" on torches. Since you can't actually keep torches for later use, how am I supposed to do that, exactly?
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

Thanks for the feedback Sophia; I'll see what else I can do to amend the follower scripts: I will see if I can control when they drop loot, and also look again at follower AI. The primary update for follower AI was to not have them stand there being hit... but maybe this is not enough. They can also get stuck chasing a dead enemy or even just stop realising there are others still to fight quite a lot. I will see if I can rewrite more of the script to help resolve this, as orgiinally had to disable some things to keep it working: it tends to get unreliable I'm afraid.

I did wonder about the 'Time is of the essence' puzzle and will make it simpler, as it rounds to nearest second.

I honestly cannot remember that scroll about stocking up on torches: perhaps it was a message I put in before making them pickups only.
I've tried to balance light, food and drink as three elements to constantly try to top up on.

Thanks again Sophia - as always, you give me a lot to think about - and it all will help make a better game.
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

Ok, have released an update:

1/ items now dropped as creature dies - they do still move backwards, but have collision on them - so no more appearing in walls - (though ideally would just have them drop where they are). However, you should now be able to access an item as it drops.
2/ Time of the essence puzzle - +0.5sec grace period added.
3/ AI: followers now properly guage the correct range to use their skill sand items at. If a follower cannot use an item anymore it will also default to melee weapon. Still far from perfect, but followers should now at least be useful in combat, providing flanking fire and combat, especially during big attacks.
4/ 'HOLD K' made more obvious - was not really obvious how to recall battling followers.
5/ improved warcries: pressing 'K' gets more fitting SFX (Daroou changed for ecample, more female voices, more reptiles, etc)

thanks again.
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sophia
Concise and Honest
Posts: 4239
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:50 pm
Location: Nowhere in particular
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sophia »

I've made quite a bit of progress, and found some more issues.

I think the skeleton key stairs are bugged. When I first got the skeleton key, I went down, and I found that some of the levels below were already open, which is not how it's supposed to work. In particular, in level 12, you can waltz right up and grab the master key without having to do any of the level.

The Zoooom Roooom doesn't seem to work at all. I just kinda... got pushed forward a couple squares... and then just sat there.

I don't like what you've done with Gigglers at all. Perhaps the stealing mechanics didn't work in RPG Maker, or something, but you've made them these death machines that can quite easily one-hit-kill your party members. It just doesn't seem to really fit their context in DM. In general, I've noticed that the monsters from DM that I considered to be quite tough challenges at their level, like Worms, Rats, and Scorpions, aren't really so bad in Super DM. On the other hand, monsters that were more nuisances like Wasps and Gigglers have become life-threatening.

There's another bug with Gigglers also. If you have ful bombs selected, and a Giggler is running around throwing ful bombs, every time it throws one, you lose one ful bomb from your own supply.

Amid all the issues and complaints, though, I do have to say, I generally like the soundtrack you've chosen for the game. Some of the songs are a bit loud, but they're fun to listen to and generally match the theme of the level you're on, so I've enjoyed listening to the music as I play. Levels 5, 6, and 9 have been particularly fun so far.
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

Cool stuff:

I must have misread the logic for the skeleton-key path... will double check what should be unlocked on the lower levels - I do remember you could go quite a way down once you got past the Void level. [.... checks... oh my yes! the false walls on levels 11 & 12]

I think with wasps and gigglers it is the rate of action that is a real problem here. The Gigglers also became mad-bombers as there is no 'steal' option, as you say: but no reason I cannot look into a way of reviewing them: interesting about the bombs too...

'Zoom' was tricky... will see if I can re-jig this: the engine does allow movement-tiles, but removes user-input when doing so - so presently it is an odd mix of mechanics to get round this...

The music has been fun to put together. I'll check to see if can amend the master music volume by default.

I do admit there are some limitations of the original engine - I will try to overcome them rather than hide behind them as excuses.

I do appreciate your dedication to this project, especially as it seems you are not having fun, but more a forensic investigation: I do appreciate what you, Sera and the comments of others are doing: it really helps. Thankyou.
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

...and I've implemented those updates, Sophia.
Skeleton doors closed again: such a daft thing to leave open for ages! Sorry.
Zooom still bugs me too, but should lat least provide more of a challenge.
Combat: added more default behaviour, so if nothing else, pressing 'F' will punch enemies: followers will also default to punching if all else fails.
Gigglers as thieves, not as mad-bombers: they still do not steal too much, but can now disarm your weapon and shield - as well as draining some of your ammo supplies, like darts, potions and arrows etc.
Wasps: toned-down, main menu tidied-up. Default volumes not so intrusive.

Thank-you so much. Appreciate the feedback, and did see someone post a video about this game too, with stinging criticism - but hey, I knew it'd be coming... I'll continue with the CSB part and hopefully this will all be over by Christmas... ;)
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sophia
Concise and Honest
Posts: 4239
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:50 pm
Location: Nowhere in particular
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sophia »

Excellent. I will hopefully get to this soon!

I don't think "not having fun" is really a fair thing to say. I mean, it definitely has been an investigation, but if I simply found this game no fun at all I probably wouldn't even keep playing. Instead, I'll say, it has its moments-- and I guess I wish it could be more than it is now, that it could be something truly fun, so I try to help get there in some small way.

I hope it isn't a hugely offensive thing to say to point out that there is a lot about this game that, from a technical or design standpoint, just isn't really very good. However, I will say, it's coming from the right place, and that means a lot, too. I say without irony that this is probably the best free-to-play game I've ever seen on Steam, and I say that because it's the only free-to-play game on Steam that I've seen that isn't a festering monetized pit of crap trying to nickel and dime you every step of the way. It instead has that "indie" spirit: a game made by someone who has a creative idea and just wants to realize it in a game.

I mean, on the other hand, you have games like EA's Star Wars Battlefront II which is a massive AAA effort that is big and sprawling and beautiful... except it's also a full priced $60 game that nonetheless features annoying freemium features like loot boxes and makes you pay even more (or grind for 40+ hours) to unlock your favorite characters like Luke or Vader. EA sucks, so this isn't new, but it's also not just EA. This is the state of big publisher games in general, and why so many people are flocking to indies.

So anyway, my point is, whatever criticism I or anyone may heap on you, it's all technology. It's all solvable problems. You can learn to code better. You can get original art. You can start a Kickstarter and hire some help and give the game a whole more polish, and eventually have a wholly original game that you sell for a reasonable price and people love. That's not to say any of that stuff is necessary, or easy, but it's all doable. What isn't so doable is to replace the defective mentality that's rotting the game industry with the one you've already got. If nothing else, that deserves praise.
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

Thank you Sophia - I did not mean to cause any offence and put words into your mouth, it was a clumsy phrase for which I sincerely apologise.
Your feedback is amazing and absolutely fills me with encouragement. Apologies and thank-you.

As you say however, technically, this game is all over the place: but daily I am just learning new stuff, re-writing things. I think when you put together a big project, you put all features in, a working 'Alpha', and go with it. I think I'm now in a 'Beta' phase, revisiting all aspects and ripping it out. I have proved that it is possible to recreate the maps, a base story and some combat, but you are right: there is a lot wrong with the menus, controls, look-and-feel, balance.

I agree that indie games are where things are going to now, dinosaurs like EA have been in trouble for a while as a result.
Perhaps with this project, it went public too soon - but then, without the input of others it would easily have stagnated.

If I was looking to make money, I'd hire an artist and make a simple game with a lot of lewd anime content: but that's not really why I'm doing this.
I am very flattered that people are picking up on my passion at least, so it is my duty to go back and fix things in the game.

I think right now in my life, I need this project more than it needs me. I'm caught in that weird obsession we all have where you believe in what you are doing so much you sort of end up living in your own head a bit too much: you are the welcome cold bucket of water that keeps me focused.


Thank you
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
Sera
*BLUE* not Purple
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Stafford, UK

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by Sera »

been poking around a bit again, got one more thing that i feel could use a slight change. the moment you reach level 14, even if you havent gotten much of anything yet, the grey lord has sealed off some of the ways around, personally i think this should only be triggered after you enter the room with lord chaos with a completed firestaff... or maybe just not at all, since i like the idea of still being able to free roam even after having everything ready for the final battle. nothing id consider gamebreaking either XP

also, its good to know youre really devoted to this, the more i go through the more im loving it. i really do hope you consider making DM2 as part of the series ^_^
Immortal Dungeoneer.
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

Aw thanks Sera! Your words fill me with inspiration...

SECRET: when the Grey Lord appears... there IS a way to get back past him... though it is not obvious.
Spoiler
Look for the Black Flames that are by themselves...
That 'secret; was something I missed and turns out to be a great little cheat, :).

Glad you are enjoying this. Currently working on several things:

1/ Overhauling the party-control system: so now followers behave more sensibly [not that a lone-wolf like you may have seen this, Sera]
2/ revised 2D graphics, add lots more grit and shadow to the game
3/ planned futher graphical updates to how map is rendered [seeing if possible]
4/ CSB... still working my way through this... still about 50% mapped.

DM2... I know you are smitten, so once have gotten everything up to a nice level, will take time off and actually complete DM2 for myself. :) then we'll see, ;).

As ever, thanks to everyone who has taken time to investigate this curiosity, and thanks especially to you two; Sera for your perseverance and positivity, and to Sophia for your wisdom and focus.
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
User avatar
boyflea
Expert
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Super Dungeon Master: Quest for the Firestaff

Post by boyflea »

'what a difference a day (or three weeks) makes...' ...
Ok, crept up to v1.2 now... revised artwork thanks to RPGMaker feedback, revised controls thanks to negative customer feedback, fixed bugs and still not finished CSB... I think I need to break for Christmas, :).
The stonework walls? Pristine. The floor? Level. The waterworks? Flowing. Central heating? The Dragon in the basement was grumpily heating the pipes. Lord Chaos consulted the blueprints again, looking for the bathroom. #playmygame!
Post Reply