Why do people seem to prefer CSBWin to RTC?

General messages about RTC and it's development.

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Gambit37
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Why do people seem to prefer CSBWin to RTC?

Post by Gambit37 »

It's very curious that people seem to enjoy playing the original game engine rather than RTC.

RTC is a lot more powerful in a number of ways, and puts back a ton of stuff that isn't in CSBWin: Monster movement sounds, magic map, creature scroll etc.

Discuss your reasons for preferring one over the other...
Last edited by Gambit37 on Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by beowuuf »

Currently the scriptability in DSAs is why I am doing something in CSBwin
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Post by Trantor »

For me, it's the whole gameplay. RTC just doesn't "feel" like the original. Movement, monster behaviour, how objects fly - it is not 100% the same, and being a true nostalgic, I prefer the "true" feeling CSBWin gives me. I don't mean to say anything bad about RTC, it is a great effort and has some amazing features. I simply prefer the original.
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Post by PaulH »

Has to be CSBWin. RTC while very good, is flawed slightly and does NOT play like the original. It plays like RTC!!!
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Post by beowuuf »

But then we've played the original so much why not a change? And besides I didn't grow up on the atari game so thigns like CSBwin not having the proper throw action, not drinking form fountains directly, footsteps, etc also feel off.

I don't think there is anythign wrong with any of the engines, they are all great efforts
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Post by PaulH »

Can the weapons stats be changed in RTC? Because for me its always 'find the stone club' in RTC and thats it. The damages dealt differ enormously from CSBWin. The monsters seem to be psychic too, they attack instantaneously. For me CSBwin just plays better.
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Post by beowuuf »

If club damage is wildly different its a bug and should be reported. The monster thing is meant, George decided if the party gets to instantly attack the second a monster moves, then a monster should get the same chance
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Post by PaulH »

its all the weapons! The damage equations need changing in IMO. CSBWin has ADGE too, so more variety here i believe (correct me if I am wrong). I think the monsters should have some sort of small delay on attacks.
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Post by Sophia »

The problem is that monsters are even -faster- than humans, at least, faster than me.

Perhaps instead of attacking as soon as the party approaches, the monsters should get a "parting shot"-- they can automatically attack in between when stepping away is processed and when it actually happens.
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Post by Antman »

I'm with Trantor, but not just because its the original, i believe if i had never seen or played this game before, then played CSBWin and RTC, i would choose CSBWin. Its the whole feel, the way you walk, the monsters actions and the flow of CSBWin is superior to RTC in my opinion. Part of this may be because RTC doesnt have a command queue or doesnt pick up all the commands or something like that when your moving fast, and i enjoy the flow of fast constant movement. I also like the look and graphics of CSBWin over RTC.
Probably similar to the reasons people like to play this old game compared to new games. But in saying that i should probably give RTC more of a go as its seems there are some nice new dungeons to play for it, and it does have the monster movements sounds i remember from the amiga version.
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Post by Zyx »

My 2p:
To be honnest I think the differences between both are faint; from the points of views expressed by the players here, the preferences seem based more on details or annoying (but probably momentary) bugs. However, both programs are very enjoyable and well done.
Personnaly, using sometimes an old PC, RTC is simply not an option for me.
Besides, for RTC, the sleeping times are annoying, and the lack of homogeneity of the graphics disturb me (monsters and decorations look better from a distance). One would have to redo all the graphics at high resolution to fix this. Great potential for high quality, but a lot of work too... nobody achieved this work yet.

As for editors, I don't know well enough both to compare pertinently. RTC seems more intuitive, CSBuild more powerful. For customization, here's what I believe - corrections are welcome -:

Sounds:
*RTC allows several format of sounds, it's easy to associate them, but only with certain events (triggered events, movement)
->RTC needs more events to be linked to.

*CSBuild accepts - currently - only one old format, it's more complicated to associate them, and yu can put them for almost any kind of event (wound, examining, eating, any weapon action, death, movement, event, a unique object, etc)
->CSBuild needs more ready-to-use DSA to put the sounds (I will provide them one day), or maybe some DSA tools


Graphics:
*RTC allow any kind of graphic, full color, high resolution. Easy to link.
->it's a trap! melanging graphics of several qualities should be avoided, imho, so this feature is wether useless or requires too much work.

*CSBuild only allows 16 colors low resolution pictures.

Monsters, items:
*RTC allows new monsters and items (through cloning)

*CSBuild only allows altering existing monsters and items.
->there are 27 types of monsters. This limit only becomes annoying for big dungeons.

AI, special events, scripts, filters:
*RTC doesn't offer customization (that I know of)

*CSBuild's main feature is about this. Nobody can predict all the possibilities of the DSAs. Almost anything is possible.
DSA can be used at novice level for very simple tasks; but you could transform the game into a mastermind or a pacman if you wish. Through a lot of scripting.

Source code:
*RTC isn't source open.
*CSBuild is.
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Post by linflas »

Hoho, I missed this one because I don't use to read CSBwin technical topics. :oops:
CSBwin *is* DM (yes, i know there are emulators and DM PC but who plays them now ?).
RTC is the closest DM clone, but it's definitely a clone.
My interest for now is to create something completely different but with the rules that made what DM is. I don't want to fuse another Chaos or whatever the name you give him. I don't want 16 colours graphics and crappy sounds anymore. I only speak gif, png, jpg, mp3, ogg.

RTC is made from scratch and has good potential. The main problem is, it's a standalone coding project so it grows too slowly... just like the other clones.
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Post by Suule »

RTC is made from scratch and has good potential. The main problem is, it's a standalone coding project so it grows too slowly... just like the other clones.
I must disagree here with you. I think that saying something is faster because of an open source development is a bit foolish.

CSBWin was based on disassembled Atari code... having a code you can base on is a great help that definetly speeds up the process.

RTC was built from scratch. Based on suspicions, experimenting and thinking "how it was done."

The latter method takes valubale time in comparing both versions - yours and the original to keep it as close to original as possible.

I use both methods in working on DM2.5 So it takes a lot of time to work out some of the details carefully hidden in the game engine...

If RTC sleeping bug would be fixed and some scripting language would be added I think it would be a very good competer to CSBWin.
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Post by beowuuf »

CSBwin and RTC are coming from two different places. One is the old angine being made as playable on as many platforms as possible, with the engine being modified and pulled as far as it will go (especially helped by outside programmes like ADGE). The other is a DM-like engine that is supposed to be expandable while still haviong roots in the Dm game we know and love (and therefore allow Dm and CSB to be played on it)

From that perspective take your pick, but realise that CSBwin will have natural limits, even though Paul is doing a create job of pushing every normal boundary, and adding scripting. In the end it depends what you want...old engine with new tricks, or new feeling engine with a nostalgic skin. There is no right and wrong, and I think Gambit was just surprised that more people werent' supporting a new engine, and I must admit I am surprised that people arent' just stating a preference but slating the RTC engine for thigns that should be reported as bugs or suggestions... if you look at the old RTC postrs you can see everything has gone through tons of tweaks, stamina regen, sleep, etc - and George has had nothing but 'ooh, it's too fast..ooh, it's too slow' to go by!

I had a pad of a huge dungeon / game I wanted to do, originally in RTC. There are some thigns I can now do and will try in CSBwin, that for now I still can't see being possible in RTC... but I will never be able to do the RTC game in CSBwin as there are far too many limitations which RTC doens't have... so there you go. They are both good, and neither are currently sitting at v1.0 yet and so are still under development!
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Post by Gambit37 »

Surely dissasembling code and rewriting in another language takes longer than doing something from scratch?

Anyway, I don't think that's got anything to do with why some like CSBWin and some prefer RTC.

I like both.

I like the nostalgic feel I get when playing CSBWin, even though it lacks some of the things I prefer about the Amiga version (I was an Amiga baby, not a ST kiddie). Clearly it's editing capabilities are impressive when used in conjunction with something like ADGE and it has the custom graphics engine now too.

However, the CGE in my opinion is way too complicated for the average graphics person. I certainly don't want to have to learn another programming language just to get my walls working in the game, I'd rather use my valuable time actually designing graphics. RTC is much better in this regard, plus it can support higher res images in 24-bit colour, something I'm still experimenting with from time to time. I got bored with making graphics for CSBWin as the 16 colour restriction was simply too great for me.

I also was frustrated with the processes required to get custom content into CSBWin, especially for things like Hints and new monsters. Although the 3rd party tools created for these tasks are great, you can't beat having all these capabilities unified in one editor as you do in RTC.

DSAs are clearly a great addition to CSBWin. I look forward to seeing what people can create using them. It would certainly be great to have some kind of scripting in RTC, but complex dungeons can still be made without that.

A lot of you seem to complain about the differences in RTC: different sleep times, damage ratios, etc. I don't have a massive problems with these, I like that it isn't the same and I like the fact that monsters are faster and cleverer than the original.

I do feel quite connected to RTC. I spent literally months playing it in the early days and reported hundreds of bugs and was involved in a lot of chat that helped developed some of it's features. I feel like I've grown up with it, the same way I grew up with the original DM! :)

Both engines are great at what they do, they are just different. But I do wish people wouldn't dismiss RTC so readily on the basis of nostalgia and a few minor niggles; it's a great game and deserves better!
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Post by beowuuf »

Another small thing is simply I like the text file underlying dungeon creation in RTC - a new feature is added, you don't have to wait for an editor to catch up, you can actually create the lines yourself right away for anything (like monster abilities, etc).

But yes, DSAs are perhaps one of the greatest things that has come to any DM clone... a fairly intuitive scripting language that is constantly expanding so that monster actions, reactiosn, attacks, spells, party attacks, eventas, graphics etcx can all be changed during the game on case by case, level, event etc basis...bliss!

So far I've created an entirely new type of 'potion' object, have a working forge for cretaing magic weaponry, have a dragon with a startlingly desturctive attack, a keep level where a pitched battle with creatures attacking each other can happen - and I've barely started yet!
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Post by Sophia »

I also really like the .txt file. I was able to create some very complex effects by writing small programs that automatically generated large numbers of triggers, that I then pasted into my dungeon file. It's the second best thing to scripting, of course.

To combine this with true scripting, of course, would be even better. :D

I posted a suggestion about scripting in RTC, but, as is typical for rather bizarre RTC feature suggestions, it went completely ignored.
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Post by beowuuf »

I'm sure it all gets looked at
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Post by PadTheMad »

Seems to be turning into an Atari / Amiga debate of sorts :wink:

I've never really edited / created for either (apart from a dabble with RTC) so I cannot comment on that front, but I think RTC provides a far more atmospheric experience with more vivid colours, colourful items when in the hand and a coloured pointer, and most importantly the sounds. I know it may not be totally true to the original DM but I was brought up on the Amiga so these differences mean something to me. Playingwise, I think RTC has a smoother flow.
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Post by beowuuf »

I have to agree the non-queued keystrokes can be annoying - I think I mentioned them ages ago..why is this not in the general discussion forum anyway?
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Post by PaulH »

I would like to say I am not dismissing RTC. You asked a question and I answered it honestly. And I have mentioned these 'bugs' more than once. Should I start a new thread for them in the RTC forum? If RTC had editable weapon stats it could be sorted in an instant.

It IS a great game! But CSBWin I think is better...
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Post by DragonsLover »

The original game is always the best!

RTC is nice, but not perfect! I already talked about RTC on the fact that it is harder than the original game: Monsters attack instantly and when the party receives a fireball, be sure to have A LOT of healing potions because of all these wounds the party have. It's also annoying to wait longer when resting.

RTC is nice, only to edit dungeons easily. Changing graphics, sounds and so on... After, playing our dungeons is cool!

For CSBWIN, well... I still have the original Atari-ST games on floppy disks! ;)
Anyway, CSBWIN is the original game. It is less hard and more fun! DM PC is also the original way to play the game and there's also a level editor by GG (DMute). The only thing is that you have to know very well the Hex codes to edit the dungeon.

Anyway, for the gameplay, I enjoy Dungeon Master Original.
For editing dungeons, I enjoy RTC.

I like both!
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Post by linflas »

Gambit37 wrote:Surely dissasembling code and rewriting in another language takes longer than doing something from scratch?
Anyway, I don't think that's got anything to do with why some like CSBWin and some prefer RTC.
Sorry i was totally OT or didn't express myself correctly.. my answer will be very simple : i prefer RTC for editing but also for playing. Everything is so predictable in the original engine.
I enjoyed the DM version with restricted runes (one of the best feature in RTC imho).
Monsters are harder to fight (i prefer hacking'n dancing than fireballing) : the CSB dungeon was a real challenge compared to the original game (for example, the munchers are very dangerous in the No-fireball room).
I love walking sounds, they bring a great frightening ambiance to the game.
I like the idea you can be wounded more easily (maybe too much i admit), but it's more realistic and force you to make vi potions often.
The no-save-at-all-time feature hasn't been used yet but it could be possible in CSB-style dungeons (why not CSB itself ? just to see !)

I also noticed that RTC custom dungeons are less interesting than CSBwin ones. Probably because their creators are less experimented than Zyx, Paul or Sucinum. But maybe this will change soon...
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Post by Sophia »

linflas wrote:I also noticed that RTC custom dungeons are less interesting than CSBwin ones.
Hmph, played SS yet? :wink:
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Post by linflas »

yep, i'm lost in some place with a cool blue dragon :)

and you, played Sukumvit yet ? ;)
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Post by Sophia »

linflas wrote:yep, i'm lost in some place with a cool blue dragon :)

and you, played Sukumvit yet ? ;)
Oh, it's not that big of area, I can help if you're stuck, though.

I looked at it a bit, the addon graphics were neat, but to be totally honest, I got turned off to getting deep into it by the knowledge that there were some paths I could take that would render the game completely unsolvable. That would be so frustrating!

It's bad enough when the dungeon has bugs and you have to start over. Not that I ever had this problem. :wink:
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Post by Gambit37 »

Aaargh, stop going off topic! Discussions about custom dungeons should happen in the relevant forum.
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Post by George Gilbert »

beowuuf wrote:I'm sure it all gets looked at
Certainly does!

Please do keep on pointing out any problems with RTC and I'll fix them up. Just post a message into the bugs board and I'll take a look. You guys are the experts in DM; I certainly wasn't aware of the imbalance of the stone clubs but now you've pointed it out I'll fix it. I've also already fixed the differences in the sleeping and wounds for the next version. The issue with the graphics being "too good" is an interesting one - I'll put something in to optionally make the graphics "worse" when scaling objects in the distance if the original graphics are blocky to begin with.

My apologies if you think your postings are being ignored. They certainly are not. I read every one and act on most. Please be aware though that I can't do or reply to everything; I have a real life as well as an online one and the time taken to implement some good (but big) suggestions mean that they don't get done immediately.

RTC has come a long way since I first wrote the basic program and will no doubt go alot further. Keep the suggestions comming in and RTC will keep evolving.
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Post by beowuuf »

It has come a very long way since us whining about little differences and seeing only the first few levels of DM available!
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Post by PaulH »

This is excellent news George, you may even convert me to the Dark Side!!!
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