Magic using baddies vs Physical damage baddies in RTC

General messages about RTC and it's development.

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Toasty
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Magic using baddies vs Physical damage baddies in RTC

Post by Toasty »

I've just played through RTC DM and thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks for all the hard work that's been put into it. It's really great!

One thing I really noticed though, and it's something I don't recall from the original (though it's been ~15 years since I played the original!) is the difficulty of the magic using baddies vs those that just use normal attacks. Wizard Eyes in particular caused me massive headaches early on - they react instantaneously and lob lightning bolts from quite a distance. One minute my party's walking down a narrow corridor then next minute bang bang they're all dead.

So, couple the fact that they have ridiculous reaction times with the fact that they're silent, attack from the distant darkness and in many places respawn and you've got a baddie which is 10* tougher than anything else at that level. Once you know where they are (half the time that's after a reload for me :( ) you can just lob a few fireballs down the corridor and get out of the way... but I dunno, they just seem out of place, difficulty-wise. (Materialisers are similarly difficult - again mosly because their reaction times are so fast and they attack from the dark.)

Now I don't really mind the difficulty as such; I like difficult games and I'm reasonably competent at DM, so really my main point is that while wizard eyes and materialisers are so tough, everything else is relatively weak. Even stone golems and animated armours are trivially easy to kill, relatively speaking. You just stand in front of them and go mano-a-mano while drinking a few potions of vi.

So: Is it a design choice that the magic lobbing baddies are vastly harder than the melee baddies?

Tar!
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Trantor
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Post by Trantor »

First of all, welcome to the forums! :D

Second, I think you are right, RTC is a bit messed up in this regard. The monsters where I found this especially annoying were the Swamp Slimes which also do ridiculous amounts of damage. A few days ago, I played through Sukumvit's Labyrinth, and the only monsters that constantly kicked my butt were the gazers.

I don't actually think this is a design choice, I think it's just one of those aspects where RTC is different from original DM. But there were more, so I still have hope that George will eventually fix this.
Toasty
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Post by Toasty »

Hmm, after a bit more searching I just spotted this thread from a while back:

http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=26064

It's the same problem pretty much, just looked at from another angle.

I must admit the poison from the swamp-slimes on one of the earlier levels felt a bit silly to me too. It was the same experience i mentioned earlier with the wizard eyes: you're just stood in a corridor minding your own business, next thing 2 or more of your party are dead from one hit from out of the darkness!

Would a 'fix' be to lower the magic level at which swamp slimes and wizard eyes cast their poison and lightning? That and a slight delay on their casting would be perfect. (sometimes they know you've moved before the sceen updates - you sidestep and there's already a lightning bolt halfway towards you)
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Misskarna
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Re: Magic using baddies vs Physical damage baddies in RTC

Post by Misskarna »

I noticed the same thing in my last playthrough. Lord chaos moves twice the speed as well. But the poison bolts from you and the enemies are seriously overpowered. if you don';t train everyone to 200-300 hp you going have tough time vs the beholders (wizard eyes)

Another thing in original don't think you could ever do 400 damage in a melee swings as it wasn't possible to get to 255 strength due to diminishing returns on the potion. Overall it was funny, to die few times instantly on level 10 with that room with beholders I had use cunning tactics.

Also Materializes were only effected by the weaken spell against a wall, but I think thats normal as why they are called amterializers.

Look forward to trying csb, just hope my party is strong enough to survive these overpowered monsters.
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Saumun
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Re: Magic using baddies vs Physical damage baddies in RTC

Post by Saumun »

DM in RTC certainly does have overpowered spells compared to other versions, but they can easily changed. I just don't think anyone was too bothered about doing it since there are plenty of other versions.

For instance, the wizard eyes cast 'medium' level lightning (which I agree seems very strong), but you can easily clone it and change it to low level. Also, you can make a custom strength attack method to tailor it further.

The deterioration rates of potions are hard-coded, but this can also be worked around (I've done it myself), so that you cannot run around with permanent 255s.

As far as the speed at which monsters can cast spells, I'm not sure. I think in general it's linked to movement, but you could also get around this in isolated instances.
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Chaos-Shaman
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Re: Magic using baddies vs Physical damage baddies in RTC

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

I agree Saumun, RTC can be managed easily when it comes to spells and strength.

Magic creatures appear to be tough to kill. There is a trick to killing them. There is a delay after they attack that you ducked and which gives time to attack back. The long corridors are a real problem, but that is what protection spells are for, and what the magic map can show. SOTF dungeon had spots where monsters and spells were toooooo many, but it's doable. Don't forget the horn and war cry, they work pretty good on those magic guys. I found that no fear is the best approach, hiding behind walls IMHO is not the way to wipe the magic monsters out.
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