RTC monster AI and NPC

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RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

Well, after a few months of plugging away at RTCs engine, Seriously (un)Serious and I have come up and are near the end phases of completing monster AI and NPC characters. It's been a long awaited function that we've all been craving for. When completed and Lynchgate is launched, I am sure Seriously Unserious will release the examples of how with the GUI. I am hoping everyone will enjoy it and make good use to create fantastic dungeons in the future.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Seriously Unserious »

I've been playing around with the test dungeons for CS's monster AI and NPC options, and I've been impressed. What I've done in my Castle Lynchgate demo is nothing compared to what's possible. I still don't really understand how CS get's it to work and probably won't until I can look through the text file in the editor to see what mechanics he's using, but I will be using elements of it for Castle Lynchgate and even more elements of it in my future custom dungeons.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

you can have the base when it's done SU, all you'll need to do is write the story and create the dungeon to your liking. i am 30% done, so many of the monsters will be wandering the dungeon instead of kill everything in sight, now we have the option to attack them, join party, or dismiss from party back into the dungeon, not the mirror. you'll see, i'll send the update this weekend. the graphics have been on hold until i finish the ai npc. it's a big job making those NPCs, first one took the better part of the day, had to think it out, getting easier though.

*it's your stories that are going to make the difference SU, keep working on them.
it'd be nice if we had one more person working on the graphics as well, but who?
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Seriously Unserious »

We could always try posting a help request in the Creative Endeavors forum, or more accurately, bump my original request for artists. I'll do that. Someone may offer, or not, but we certainly won't get any offers if we don't ask.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

most definitely true, the more the merrier! i once said that if we'd all join forces, we'd make DM come back alive. i wish this to be true.

I am now 60% done my part fro you SU
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Seriously Unserious »

awesome! :D
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

8) I am now 100% done. it needs to be tweaked, sounds need to be removed from certain attacks, info screens and speech needs to be added other than the default one added. all you need to do is design the dungeon, its traps and of course, your STORY. 23 monsters are integrated into NPC, will operate as such, what is not complete is what monsters that you wish to also control outside the party, this requires more clones. this is the base, a ton can be added to the ai npc features, there is no end to what can be done with RTCs engine. this should spruce up what you are attempting witht he dialog. what is needed is character graphics other than the monsters portraits created for the npcs, if there is anyone willing to add to this fantastic project you have going SU, it would be of great help. 8)
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Seriously Unserious »

I can't wait to test it all out. :D Unfortunately I'm probably gonna have to :(, too many things due at college next week.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

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i expect your marks to be in the mid 90s SU! heh, i have know doubt you will
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

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I hope so, but with 2 lab exams, 2 lab assignments and a report all due within 2 days of each other it's gonna be tough.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

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well just think of the reward when you're done :)
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

i was struggling with an intermittent error when dismissing an npc that i discovered afterwards, spent days on working out possibilities and i think the problem is solved, been testing and testing it for hours now and no error yet. removing a character from party while in an enclosed room would often error, i am really hoping this is the last hurdle, if not i'll have to revert to more simple earlier versions that are less effective but still get the job done.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

ebeneezergude, post your thoughts and ideas here, and thanks for being a playtester. just remember this is not a regular DM that you're use too. remember to click on the right of monsters before trying to kill them ok :) check all the attacks on monsters, just fool with it. i'll let you figure it out on your own, i want to know how you find the controls without having to tell you.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Actually, I'd say that what you're doing with these dungeons is so different from standard DM that you need to have an instruction manual that explains the differences and how to do the many new things you've implemented. ;)
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

that's your job SU :) it'll be your dungeon... you have the reins on this one. i'll continue producing mechanics to add to yours, but where it really counts is the STORY, and i am looking forward to that.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Seriously Unserious »

IMO when the testing is done, and the dungeon and AI mechanics are fully debugged, you have a dungeon of your that's pretty much good for release. If you need a little help with story elements, say to fill in the blanks where you have some "insert text here" type statements I'd be glad to help. Or if I'm busy you could always try asking Ameena, she seems to love writing stories for these sort of things. She's doing many of the story elements to Rasmus' project, Dwelvers for example.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

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thank you greatly SU, but what i did i did for you. the story you see i made it up to show the mechanisms, it was made also to help along with the playtesting. i am not a story teller, maybe if i drink enough i might get an idea or two but it is just not my thing. i can't wait to see everyone elses story using the monster characters as they run into them. how all these stories connect will be very interesting. putting the ai with the npc pcs is going to be a blast. the ai has to also match the character, Halk being tough etc, but that's another story in doing that. i'll need to be instructed on what people want in the character. combine Clodious's character work and we have some magic going on here. we have engine, story and graphics together, a fine combination of talents ;)
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Whether it was your intention or not, you made a good dungeon layout and IMO you would be doing the world of Dungeon Master a huge disservice to keep it hidden. To release it when it's done costs you nothing. If others don't like it, they won't play it, if they do, they will play it. If you don't release it no one can play it and that's a guarantee. If it's not well liked, you've lost nothing, if it is, you and everyone who plays it and has fun will have gained something great, the creation of a new world to lose themselves in for a few hours or a few days.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

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oh, well thank you, the layout of the ai programming is going nowhere, and i may do something with it only AFTER you release the dungeon you create with it, i'd also need Clodious to help with the complete character set, this is still some time away, so there is no hurry, but for you, i want you to get moving on finishing Lynchgate and coming up with the next dungeon, once you release it then sure, maybe i'll go back to EoC and fix it up. you're far better at putting thngs together and getting it up and running. don't leave things like that to me, 6 years and still no dungeon completed, i probably started one every year, you can show me how to utilize the cut and paste in the .txt file, show me some tricks :) i have been learning all along except the 2 year period in between before i found your help wanted message. i thought DM and particularly RTC were dead, i tried to reach out to just about everyone but had stones thrown at me in some cases, not unusual for a shaman to recieve that kind of treatment. just a misunderstanding since my methods are unorthadox, my mind runs wild and often misunderstood because i don't like rules :) stands for Chaos. i am self taught, no schooling on any of this stuff, just straight curiosity and fun.

i intend to help with the shaman part of any dungeon with the plants and mixtures, their effects and use in cultures, there are so many different types, there is no right way in shamanism. if anyone needs help in that area that is, it has been my intent all along. Chaos Shamans are already in games, have a look at their descriptions, you'll find it uncanny :)

so we must launch a well designed dungeon for the first one, that's not me, that's for you to do. i don't know if you've noticed but not many give two bits about it anyway :( i can't put my finger on it yet as to exactly why this would be. i read plenty of older messages, followed the path, must be old feelings in the way. i intend to research the entire site and see what i can come up with. maybe it's just me... maybe the shaman thing, and if so i understand. took my family a few years to get use to it too, and it wasn't until they saw past the schizoness that they accepted what i had become. say the word spirits to some people and automatically they think that you're kookoo, but they love to drink them, it's why people drink in the first place whether they believe it or not.

if there are others who want to write a story and need some sort of ai mechanincs i'll have no problems helping out. we all share one thing in common, and that's the love for DM
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Well, now there's an interesting dichotomy, you're into shamanism, and I'm into Scientology, yet we seem to manage to get things working. :lol:
if there are others who want to write a story and need some sort of ai mechanincs i'll have no problems helping out. we all share one thing in common, and that's the love for DM
You got that right. IMO that's the glue that can bring this community back into creative endeavors and dungeon building. For a time the forum members may have forgotten that as they got caught up in that argument of which CM clone is better, but in the end, we are a strong if small community and I'm sure we can pull back together and get the creativity back on track. I'm already seeing the signs of it happening as new custom dungeons are starting to pop up again. Of course, the arrival of a few energetic new members who weren't around for that tired old argument and thus have no bad feelings or DM burn-out from it helps a lot too. :)
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

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well said SU, and it may just be that, a burn out from old views, new members do not carry that with them and are able to get on the wagon rather easily. it is nice to be able to walk the forum, trying to learn to walk can be a problem when one keeps getting pushed back down. i'll do the walk with arms open.

SU, you scare me with Scientology :o but i should have guessed it. we'll leave this subject for another time because as you said, they are clashing :) and sometimes opposites work well together.

time to get back to work on the project, finish up the swamp set.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Sounds great, and don't forget about the forest set, I'm getting excited about the prospect of seeing how the outdoors looks with that in there instead of the current thicket wallset.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by ebeneezergude »

Ok, have now given Chaos's RTC AI-NPC a playthrough, and as requested list below a mini 'review'.

This is extremely impressive work. I have no idea how it works at the technical level, so I will describe it purely from the experiential point of view of the player. Playing it immediately throws up many ideas and 'what ifs', which I'm sure CS has waiting in the wings to implement. I'll touch on those at the end.

The dungeon is essentially a test bed for adding new NPC mechanics, with a basic storyline implemented to hang the new game mechanics around and demonstrate how the mechanics work, and also incorporates a complex AI system.

Each player character has a series of unique skills that can be employed and used, which are accessed via the weapons slots when the character is empty handed. Skills can be things like lock picking, casting spells, scaring off enemies, or 'brokering peace' with an NPC/monster.

The skills exist on a series of 'pages' in the weapons slot, so there can be more than just 3 skills available to each character. These skills also include options for things like reading a back-story and for party management - for example, removing a character from a party.

The main AI-NPC mechanic, however, is through the interaction with the 'external' monsters. Click on a monster and a similar menu appears in the weapons slot, with options for recruiting, commanding, or talking to that NPC and multiple NPCs.

So, for example, one can control a Guard, or multiple Guards, with commands like Stay, Attack, Move, Call to player position, etc. In another example, an undead player character can sacrifice character levels to raise an undead army of skeletons, who again in turn, can then be commanded either individually or en masse.

This is an extremely interesting development. The player now has control over external agents within the dungeon. Both puzzles and combat therefore have a potentially massive benefit from this extra interaction. Summon a group of guards to assist in a fight, deploy them at strategic locations or tiles to help solve puzzles or to protect an area, make them collect items, etc. A new area may only be reachable, for example, if a certain external NPC-type is commanded in certain ways.

Combat can therefore take on a much more complex dimension and scale. No longer is it a matter of the player combatting with the immediately adjacent tile; now it entails commanding multiple external parties to do your bidding, combatting multiple enemies within any given area, at distance. Employ spirit specialist NPCs, for example, to take care of ethereal enemies, employ brute force 'tanks' to engage in hand to hand combat.

As part of the test-bed, the player can recruit to the party almost any monster type. So one can meet a Dragon, recruit him, and from then on one of your party is a dragon, complete with the option (I presume, not currently implemented) to have Dragon-specific abilities through the new 'skills' menus.

There are many neat touches and details implemented. Lock picking can take a while, with amusing text based comments and remarks from the characters appearing. Clever use of existing spells have been incorporated in novel ways (or at least novel to me) to create interesting puzzles. Some new items are clever in that they are interactive - a monster description scroll, for example. NPCs have amusing quips and comments at various stages and events. One can resurrect bones at special alcoves, turning them into controllable minions.

So, any criticisms? The limitations of the base DM/RTC engine become apparent in certain situations. For example, there are no 'fight' animations for external NPCs from 'side' or 'rear' views. So whilst you can hear fight noises, you only see the fight animation on the front graphic. But you know what's happening. Again, this is purely to do with the base engine, not a 'fault' of the work CS has produced.

Sometimes a situation can get quite crowded, to the extent that you can't get to the position you want to - an ongoing fight may block your path - something that might require further attention from CS. Very rarely, the NPC you want to control moves before you can get to the command you want to.I only got stuck once - I knew what to do, but couldn't make it work - but it was a minor one-time only and once explained it was plain sailing.

In general, the new mechanics are intuitive and easy to understand. They could benefit from a little more graphic explanation or graphic assistance - ie, 'where to click' markers or something. I didn't experience any crashes during the 1.5 playthoughs I have done to date. I think I saw everything on offer, but will definitely give it another run through.

In summary, the extra breadth, dimensionality, and sheer number of possibilities this potentially opens up is deeply impressive. As I said at the top of this review, I have no idea technically how CS achieves all this (I now have visions of CS as some mad genius huddled away somewhere in a lair picking apart the fundamentals of RTC), but it gives me many ideas for how these mechanics can be incorporated in custom dungeon projects, and storylines involving external parties at a fundamental level (one could imagine situations where all the king's men are hostile to the party, until such time as a deed is done, and the men become allies, for example).

so, first suggestion/challenge, Chaos: do an evil 'mirror' party of the existing party, a little like the Dark Link character in Ocarina of Time...!

Amazing :shock:
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Those comments about describe my experiences with C-S' AI model as well.

I'm definitely looking forward to putting part of it into action in Castle Lynchgate, and even more of it still into my next project. :)
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

thank you so much for the wonderful comments ebs, you included quite a lot in there, i know it is a lot to examine and there were things you didn't add but really, you did better than i would have trying to explain it. so let's deal witht he few points you made..
So, any criticisms? The limitations of the base DM/RTC engine become apparent in certain situations. For example, there are no 'fight' animations for external NPCs from 'side' or 'rear' views. So whilst you can hear fight noises, you only see the fight animation on the front graphic. But you know what's happening.
yeah, true, i wish we could add another tile to it, it would pull the whole thing together, just one extra tile would be enough because we can use tile 0 as well, so there is 0123 available, adding 4 would do it. i used tile 0 in EoC, i played with it and it takes a little getting use to and unfortunately we can't change the distance perspective on monster\characters because if we could, we would get rid of the pop up problem.
now the side views are not worked on but there can be a animation for side views, but how to time them with their action is a different story. i know GG was working on that, or at least i thought he was, anyway, the side views can have animations, like i can make the character turn their head towards the party with a series of animations. GG has RTC .5 in the works as far as i know, the sound is suppose to match the actions, this will be a nice thing to see.
I have no idea technically how CS achieves all this (I now have visions of CS as some mad genius huddled away somewhere in a lair picking apart the fundamentals of RTC),
trial and error, it comes with the Shaman territory ;) actually it was SU who unlocked my brain, all he had to do was ASK, and everytime he wished for something it seemed to happen for some reason :) the truth is he listened to my thoughts without taking an axe to them. i made a promise, and lastly i dreamt most of it up first. i used my dream time to work on ideas, not a common practise. i'm an off the wall crazy person who is in love with DM since it came out :)
so, first suggestion/challenge, Chaos: do an evil 'mirror' party of the existing party, a little like the Dark Link character in Ocarina of Time...!
sure that can be done, that'll be Clodios's job. he is working magic with in that area. SU has the stories for it, it's coming. i don't know what Ocarina of Time is... but i do know what an Ocarina is, shamans use them to hear clearly, a lovely shell instrument, or todays they are just molded but if one wants a clear sound, perfect note, Ocarina can do it.

thanks for that testing, you're efforts were outstanding... let me know if you need any help with the ai, i owe that to you.

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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

Seriously Unserious wrote:Those comments about describe my experiences with C-S' AI model as well.

I'm definitely looking forward to putting part of it into action in Castle Lynchgate, and even more of it still into my next project. :)
let's get to work
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

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Yup. Let's do it! ;)
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

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i made up 10 trees yesterday, none swamp, making some skins... i'll send you the last ai test that ebs checked out, some added features in it with speech. tried some new methods, the random part i think i can do better. i ask if there is a good way to create say like 10 speeches, how would i make it perfectly random, i messed with it as in a series low % for first speech, and high percent for last hit speech. do you know a better way SU? i know you worked out the lightning and rain so you might be able to help out here. so far it works ok.
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

Post by ebeneezergude »

Chaos-Shaman wrote: i don't know what Ocarina of Time is...

skoal
Ocarina of Time is the first Legend of Zelda game to be released in 3D, on the Nintendo 64. It is arguably the best video game ever produced (or at least one of...! DM is clearly No.1...!). There is a cool sequence where your character, Link, is in the end sequence of a dungeon, and his enemy is a 'dark mirror' version of him. So if you move left, he moves right, if you do an action, his action is the opposite. He's you, but he's an evil dark 'mirrored' version of you. It makes for a great face-off and puzzle sequence. I was thinking that your AI would be able to set this relationship up quite well perhaps in DM...!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend ... na_of_Time
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Re: RTC monster AI and NPC

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Chaos-Shaman wrote:i made up 10 trees yesterday, none swamp, making some skins... i'll send you the last ai test that ebs checked out, some added features in it with speech. tried some new methods, the random part i think i can do better. i ask if there is a good way to create say like 10 speeches, how would i make it perfectly random, i messed with it as in a series low % for first speech, and high percent for last hit speech. do you know a better way SU? i know you worked out the lightning and rain so you might be able to help out here. so far it works ok.
Awesome, I'm looking forward to seeing those trees. I'm gonna be busy this week, I missed a lot of stuff at College last week due to being sick so I'll be busy getting caught up but I will have time on Friday, I've set that day aside as my personal do whatever the hell I want day.

As for random events, what you're proposing is much simpler then my randomized weather as that has many different paths through it, so yeah, a simple random speech system is very doable.

What you need to do is set up a counter for your speech relays to test against. Set ti to a start value of 1, set relays 1 - 9 to whatever random chance you want of them activating, and relay 10 to 100% chance of activating. Next set up each relay to test against the value of the counter, so for parameter 1 select the "value of item" radio button, then choose the counter you just added. Under parameter 2 leave it set to "number" but change the number to 0. Next make sure the operation is set to greater then.
Finally, whenever a relay activates have it also activate the counter, that will decrement its value to 0 and all other relays will automatically fail the check and will not activate, not even the 10th one that's set to 100%. Finally, once one of the 10 relays has activated, make sure something deactivates the counter exactly once so it's value gets reset back to 1. I'd suggest running some testing with a speech output of the counter values and what relay activated to test the system out to make sure exactly 1 relay activates and that the counter never goes above 1 (I think 0 is the minimum value a counter can have so it shouldn't go below that). Once you have it working you can disable or remove the testing/debugging speech.

You can also use a similar method if you want a more complex random event chain or even multi-pathed random events, like my weather system, for example.
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