Index of Available games.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:33 pm

Succinum's new dungeon made me think about how
we maintain our 'library' of games for the Dungeon
Master engine. It seems a bit haphazard to me. Perhaps
I just don't know how it works. Let me know.

There are a LOT of games out there. Good ones. Like
the adaptation of DM2. Like etc. etc. etc.

But one must go searching for the a list of the games and
searching even harder for the ***Wonderful*** reviews that
have been created for many of the games and harder yet
for information about what platforms will work, what graphics
files to use, and other information needed to run the game
as it was intended.

This information should be organized.

Someone with a lot of energy and time and cleverness ought
to compile a more formal 'Library' with an index and a webpage
for each game (reviews, instructions, history, hints, whatever)
along with a .zip file (or several .zip files for different platforms)
that will contain the latest version anlong with all the files that
are needed for that one game. Importantly it should specify
exactly the files needed for each platform and exactly where
they should be placed.

I have webspace to offer. I suppose I could try to develop
such a library but I don't know how. I know several of you
have the skills to do such a thing. And the rest of us could
provide the 'Armchair Quarterback' function so necessary in
such endeavours. (I tried to make that look like a french word
in the hope that someone in France might find the task to his
liking.)

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:17 pm

while i can't do the mechanics behind it, i can start some of the legwor...oh, shiny coin *runs*

no! i mean, i can do some of the legwork in terms of getting the dungeons straight and having something that can be worked on and refined by the authors and whoever wants to put this up

For the library, i would say the main page lists the dungeons, all dungeons, but you have a primary option of displaying
a) PC DM,
b) CSB4win,
c) PC DM/CSB4win (CSB4win in bold) with a link of how, at your own risk, you can convert PC DM to CSB4win, and problems you might face,
d) RTC,
e) DMJava or
f) other
g) misc projects

In the main PC DM display, you can then further choose to group dungeons by
a) feel, which will be 4 - 5 simple categories like 'hack and slash' 'balanced' 'explore' 'puzzles' 'fast' perhaps
b) ease (easy, fast/small, mediium (which is most), difficult/large, like conflux II)
c) by author
d) normal named list

As well as a direct download link, as suggested each dungoen has a small page to itself, with a quick capsule of the dungeon (author, ease, feel, layout - a non-spoiler idea of if its linear, if you circle around a small dungeon, non-linear large, iof it apes dm a bit, etc )
Followed by a descrition of the story and dungeon
Possibly author's full catalogue/games similar listed at the end

What do you think? (I'm currently looking for obscure games/links for dmjava, or things not on encyclopaedia, will post what I have when i have it)

Post by **ChristopheF** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:40 pm

I agree the forum is not the best way to organize the information about the new custom dungeons.

I already thought of making a specific section of the site where people could upload dungeons, add reviews, ask for hints. And view all that information in a consistent and efficient way. You could sort the dungeons by name, publication date, user ratings, etc...
That would require putting all the information in a database and build several pages for viewing and managing the information.

The only problem is to find time to build that. If noone wants to work on this, I can try to do something, but don't hold your breath.

Post by **Gambit37** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:47 pm

This is quite spooky -- I was looking at the forums yesterday thinking that it could be much better organised, and the custom dungeons was the one in particular that I thought needed sorting.

There are more issues than just making this stuff easily available. We know that there is new forum software on the way that could help -- do we wait for that? Or do we make a new system as Christophe suggests.

All this is very much tied in to how the overall site (the root domain, not the forums) should work. Beo & Christophe made a start, but it's not there yet. It seems no one has a clear idea of exactly how the main site should work.

I *do* have some ideas though. I'm going to knock some templates up so that people can get some idea of what I'm thinking. I see a proper portal/site that links all the exsiting content together, with the forums just a small part of that.

Ideas will come forth from me next week.

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:52 pm

i would agree very much with this. it's getting too much dungeons to keep an overview about them in the forum and i think some categories would be nice to decide beetween the dungeons, i agree on beowuufs proposals there

Post by **Gambit37** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:53 pm

Also, I think we're getting to a point where the forums themselves also need re-organising. It's getting a bit diffuclt to find things, especially for new users.

For example, RTC Editor Development involves three possible editors. But I think George's editor should be dealt with in the standard RTC forums, and third party editors in a different one.

I'm looking to make a more useful Utilities / Tools forum for all the available tools and resources. I think that Clones and Other games should be something separate. I don't have the answer. But It needs fixing in my opinion. Yes, I am getting back to a discussion we had a long time ago.

I don't want to make more forums than is necessary. But I don't think the current forums now fit our needs. Perhaps sub forums might work (in the new version of phpBB)?

Sorry for hijacking this thread. But I feel it's all related to Paul's initial post.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:51 pm

Agreed, even as regulars we seem to not be able to recall some of the tools and subjects that were floating around!

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:55 pm

What I wanted was something extremely simple that required no
special talent to maintain and no special software to run.

I put a sample at

http://dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/Games

Post by **Gambit37** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:13 pm

Absolutely, I agree, but I think what you're asking for is just a small part of a greater whole. It would be easy to do something like this quickly, but it doesn't take into acount all the other ideas and wishes we've all had for this domain. Piecemeal additions aren't a good idea in my view.

I think longer term planning is required. I would offer to help, but I seem unable to even keep on top of my other commitments, so probably not good if I start something else new!

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:15 pm

that's elegantly simple, thought for twenty - thrity dungeons people might stop scrolling unless there is a simple way to highlight PC DM from csb4win, etc

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:36 pm

I agree with beowuuf and Gambit37. But how about this
for an idea.

Somebody will volunteer to do a great job. But they will need
the data and cannot be expected to both create a wonderful
interface and do the research to populate the database. So
what can we do to help that wonderful volunteer? We can
do the research. We gather the games, descriptions, reviews,
and put them somewhere. Then when our volunteer is ready
he or she will have all the data available in a nicely organized
collection.

I suggest that we gather these things and put them somewhere
for people to examine, add to, and correct. When the volunteer
comes and gets the data he will find quality data and our temporary
collection can be disbanded.

Does it make sense to develop such a temporary collection?
Who wants to keep this temporary collection?
I offer my webspace if a website seems the way to go.
I can even put together simple webpages like the one I showed you.
I cannot do anything much more complicated.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:06 am

Too tired to continue tonight, but i can carry on tomorrow with the list of what each dungeon is for you paul, if you want to create the simple webpages

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:24 pm

Ok, forget doing the in depth pages today! I just realised how many dungeons there really are once i expanded my list and realised there was only so many ways to say 'cool dungeon', let alone test a two year old memory of half of them!

I will generate the list, with links to all the dungeons. But I think since many of the authors are still available, their descriptions of their own dungeons are much more relevant, where applicable.

Any gaps can be filled in once the gaps are known : )

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:05 pm

i added a dungeon.txt to each dungeon, this should suffice

but most dungeons are in the encyclopedia anyways, or am i wrong?

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:11 pm

yes, i think the point is people complain they don't know what they are for, or what type of play they will encounter, etc

until this forum can have all the features to host it nicely, a better list and a different page summarising everything, authors comments and set up and so on, might make new players less scared or disillusioned at checkign out various dungeons

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:48 am

I received a great long list of games and file locations and
review locations, and so on. Now I am willing to put in some
time moving this information to my webspace. But I really
need to know, before expending a lot of effort, whether this
is a good idea.

The only real touchy subject that I see is whether or not the
authors of games themselves want me to copy their work
and make it available in this way. The same question might
be asked of the authors of the reviews. Should these
authors be contacted to get their permission? Will most give
their permission? Can we find most of these people?
What else should I worry about?

For now, I will simply publish the list on the Index page.

What I have received is a long list of things. Not the things
themselves. I had hoped that I would not have to do all
the work of actually collecting this material. Moreover, it
would seem wise, after putting the material on the site, to
run some simple tests to be sure the games can be downloaded
and played as described. That is a lot of work. If it is left to
me to do all the work it is going to take a very long time.
And I cannot test everything such as macintosh or Linux
releases. So some volunteers are hereby solicited. I will
give any helpers FTP access to my webspace temporarily,
probably on a day-to-day basis.

If we can put together a couple games per week we will be
doing well.

Toni Y · Post by **Toni Y** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:22 am

I'll give you blanket permission to use any dungeon or review I've made in this index endeavour.

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:44 am

as an author:
you can upload benni's dungeon 1+2 and the prison of dragoth.
improsoned again will be updated to v1.4 and i'd prefer to destroy v1.0 to 1.3 (1.3 especially).
i will MAYBE convert my former 3 dungeons to csbwin and bugfix them, but i won't promise here. but atm, i can't let my fingers off csbuild and it's fancy toys - it's so EASY to handle, i love it

as you can see, i'm too busy to help really, but there's surely something i can do.
btw: anyone remembers the dungeon crypt?

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:57 am

Sorry, i thought all the links were direct so you would download them at a better pace than me sending a multi-Mb mail to you

Any that didn't have an obvious link i was going to complete anyway and send, so i can get everything named correctly (like dungeonname.meauthor.csbwin.zip or something) and upload it instead if you can give me the ftp link
I can keep putting together little explainations of games for main pages too, I just thought the authors might prefer to : )

and amber, yes, i remember the dungeon crypt - pretty much the same idea! you were ahead of your time, i guess : ) back then the file upload forum idea wasn't as messy!

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:47 pm

I put the CSBwin version of Dungeon Master in the Index
just to begin to get a feel for how I might go about this.

I think that each game's description needs a little description
of how to play the game. All of the games can share this
so I will provide a link to it. Is there a good place to go?
We need to say generally how to enter the prison, right-click
for inventory, click on floppy image to save, how to cast a
spell, how to eat and drink. We should tell what a teleporter
does, what a pit does, how to pick up a key and put it in
keyhole. How to throw an object. How to stab a monster.
All in all the mechanics of playing any of the games. Without
any particulars of the engine or particular game.

Is there a link I can provide? Should we write something?

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:39 pm

Paul Stevens wrote:All in all the mechanics of playing any of the games.

the first time i played DM, i was 6 years old. ok, it took me (non-literally) years to complete it, but i didn't need a manual.
i think it's enough to describe how one installs the game, that's the most complicated part for many (and that's why i suggested to include IA 1.5 directly in csbwin).
How about this one:
you include the possibility to choose a dungeon before starting with csbwin. there could be a folder which some subfolders included - each subfolder has the name of the dungeon (and that will be the name displayed at the chose-your-dungeon-beginning of of csbwin) and includes the dungeon/graphics.dat, safegames and everything further needed. next to the dungeons (still in the chose-thingie) there is a button "description" which will display the "dungeon.txt" shipped with most dungeons.
this will make installation easier:
"install to the folder 'expansion' (or whatever) in your csb-win-directory" - but will make us change all zip-files.

this leads me to the next step:
we zip ALL dungeons together (with the subfolders etc as described above) and call it "dungeon pack" or something. this will make installation rather easy...
the sort-function now needs to be in csbwin instead of the website.

of course this means some coding for paul, but i think it's the better solution.
left are the reviews - but we got a whole forum for that and if that's to full - split the custon dungeons-forum into 'reviews' and 'tips, strategie and competitions'

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:22 pm

The manual explains it well enough (on the DME). George's RTC site also has a simple re-iteration of the manual stating the basics of play in nice graphical format. If he doens't mind them being mirrored/linked that would be the way to go, i think. Apart from things like party import its all applicable to the various DM versions, really : )

forums - if the coming php upgrade includes sub-forum, then i say leave anythign liek this til afterwards
then, depending on how complex it is, you can have a 'custom dungeon' forum with a sub-forum for each game! that would include link, game description (derived from the hard work here), a review thread, and then the rest can be taken up with questions, comments, competitions, etc

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:24 pm

hmm, i lost the end of my reply

for csb4win there already is a specify dungeon - the batch file! i think each csbwin dungeon just needs a batch file and a folder with the remaining files in the zip dope ease of extraction and play

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:29 pm

beowuuf wrote:for csb4win there already is a specify dungeon - the batch file!

i think the selection-menu would still be easier and more comfortable - just a suggestion, though.
but there would be still loads of pc dm-dungeons left, of course (convert them all?)...

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:44 pm

still be nice to have the designers, where possible, convert and test their own dungeon

pitd put me to shame by starting to try to convert mine, but of course i knew the bugs right off in the engine and my dungeon when i played through it - so from a refining csbwin standpoint it was better for me to say what didn't work with mine when it was an engine fault

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:02 pm

for csb4win there already is a specify dungeon - the batch file

Well, that was certainly the plan when Christophe and I
decided to put the folder of available games along with
a selection method (batch files). And Christoph wanted
to provide a cleaner way of selecting the game to be played
but ran out of time, money, or patience before it
got done.

But, IMHO, this has not worked and will not work.
The games very commonly require a special
version of the runtime engine, a special version of the
graphics files. even a special version of the config file,
and, again IMHO, the whole thing will become too
complicated and cumbersome before it can really work.
And now that the macintosh and PocketPC are coming
along very well we will have more complication. The
PocketPC is certainly a special case because it has no
harddrive to hold more than one or two games at a
time.

My whole point in wanting to do this is to make a first
time visitor to the Forum, or dmweb, etc. be able to
see the variety of available games and be able to do
something very simple and intuitive to actually begin
playing one of the games. Even the .rar files have
been an impediment to some first-timers, which is
why I am posting .zip files.

A great example of the opposite approach is the FRUA
discussion. In order to play one of the games they
construct you have to spend about three months in
advanced study. I have come to think that their purpose
is not to attract new players but rather to exercise and
demonstrate their own intimate knowledge of the intracacies
of hex patches to the runtime engine.

Well, those are my feelings. I still am not too comfortable.
My mind is open. Any massive outcry of protest will
definitely sway me. I don't want to do anything that most
people will declare silly or sensless (or downright stupid).

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:39 pm

Paul Stevens wrote:Any massive outcry of protest will
definitely sway me.

never. i just suggested a way i thought to be better but i didn't know how difficult that's to manage...
so back to the website...
simply (?) include it to the forum (subforums)?
how much text for each dungeon? a short overview with 2 sentences and a detail-view with the dungeon.txt and some reviews?
include a vote-option to rate them?
divide them in categories? beowuuf has suggested some good ones, but it's not easy to divide the dungeons amongst them. is csb hack&slay, riddles or exploration?
apply a screenshot (at least for dungeons with changed graphics)?

Post by **Zyx** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:10 pm

Just my quick 2p:

the idea of indexing the dungeons is GREAT and so much needed that I wonder why it didn't happen earlier.

I am willing to share any dungeon or comment that I may have done if it's useful for the indexation.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:19 pm

I think forget earlier stuff i said for the moment, unless someone volunteers to do the code for it : )
If we ever did the groupings, things like prisoner etc would be grouped under a 'all rounder', i think mine, grave, tomb of firestaff etc would be 'dm-feel', hissssa, diablo and the bennis dungeons are maybe hack and slash most, something like mildew or poison are more explore/puzzle
As long as there are one or two genreal catch-alls, you can at least trim off some of the more extreme possibilities from the huge list, or give someone who has played dm to death a choice of the least dm-like dungeons, etc! : )

Personally this was all i did for the main page - i htink screenshots would be cool for a good snapshot that shows how yours stands out...

Description
-------------
This is a medium sized dungeon using all the levels. If Theron had failed in DM, this is possibly the dungeon the champions would have had to play.

The dungeon covers all types of play, biased to puzzles above anything else. Especially at towards the end of the game each level covers a different syle of play, from exploration to combat to puzzle areas.

Experts or players who train will find this dungeon easy, but otherwise it should be a logical progression.

Installation
--------------
Download the Zip file (contains both versions).

For PC:
Make a copy of the 'dmsave.dat' file present in

Play
------------------
Read the 'Prologue.doc' for the full game story
Read the 'DM:Alt.doc' for dungeon info (has story summary)
Run DM.exe/CSB.exe
Click on "RESUME"
Click on "OK"/"CSBGAME"
Walk around

Reviews:
-------------

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:18 pm

I packaged my first PC-DOS game. It was Toni Y's DM2.
What I did was to put all the needed files together on my 286
machine running DOS. I tested it by running a few minutes.
Right there I PKzipped it. So it should work. Complaints
should be made before I have time to do too many more
in the same mold.

Took me a long time to get the sound going on that old 286.
Oh, well.