Scientology

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Gambit37
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Scientology

Post by Gambit37 »

Before going any further, I want to make it clear that this is not spam, I am not a scientologist, and am not trying to get anyone involved in it!

I've been working for my brother doing electronics assembly for the last couple of months. It's a step back into the real world having been unemployed for a long time. Not great money, but it's a start.

My brother has been involved with Scientology for over 20 years and has spent a small fortune on it. He's an extremely intelligent man, bright, funny and interesting. I've been undertaking psychotherapy for some time to help combat my depression, and recently my brother suggested that scientology might be better for me. On the condition that I ditch the psychotherapy of course.

I have a very dim view of scientology, having seen what happened to my brother in the early days, and all the associated bad press that went with it. However, being prepared to have an open mind about it, and given that my brother isn't a brain washed zombie (or at least doesn't appear to be), I thought that it would do no harm to see what he was going on about.

The last week I have read the first 50 pages of Introduction to Scientology Ethics. It's simply written and makes some sense -- it's basically common sense about man being basically good, and defining concepts such as ethics, morals, justice etc. Only it re-defines them in Scientology terms.

Having had several chats to my brother about it, and taking onboard all my previous views on it, I thought it was time to do some web research to see what has been going on with scientology and to find out more about it. I stayed up all night reading until 5am. I now know my brother is a nut, or at the very least, has had his critical faculties severely impaired through exposure to scientology teachings and methods.

Without going into everything I read, it's clear that LRH (L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of The "Church" of Scientology) was a paranoid fantasist with delusions of grandeur, who had great charisma, could wrap people about his manipulative finger. He was probably the twentieth century's greatest con artist, making millions by selling first his "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health" then later expanding and refining it's ideas into Scientology.

I'm making this post merely to find out if any of you have had any experience with scientology, good or bad, or what your views are about it. Is it a religion? Do it's "alternative" practices have any real benefits? Why, if it sets out to promote spiritual self help, does all it's material cost so much? What do you think of the Xenu story and "body thetans" (OK, so you probably won't know what that last bit is about, but rest assured it's pure science fiction -- unsurprising given LRH was a pulp sci fi writer -- and a bad one at that -- before he "created" his "religion").

I'm interested in any thoughts any of you might have.

EDIT: I have just discovered that Scientology has a Religious Technolocy Centre (who own the copyrights on all scientology "tech" (help methods)). That's RTC to you an me!!! George, perhaps you should consider a name change for your game????
Last edited by Gambit37 on Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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linflas
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Post by linflas »

for me, scientology is formally a 'sect'.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Sect.html
" in European languages (other than English) the word 'sect' is used to refer to a dangerous religious sect, similar to how English-speakers popularly use the word 'cult'. "

when i was 18 or 19, i needed money to pay my studies. A friend proposed me a good way to get money by some "pyramidal method" (i guess many people know what i'm talking about). I met some "Men in Black" guys that convinced my stupid teenager mind to get in their business...
Fortunately, my mother knew about it (she's very involved in religion/cult and stuff like this) and she knew that this 'company' was directed by scientologists.
My friend had lost approximately 20000 FF (~ 3000 euro) in 15 days...

Their method is very simple, and all 'sects' are using the same : find depressive people (for Jehovah's witnesses, Moon, Rael...) or young and ambitious people (for Scientology), and tell them what they want to hear.
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Gambit37
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Post by Gambit37 »

35 views and one reply -- I guess that tells me enough about what people think! :-)
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Zyx
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Post by Zyx »

I only know L Ron hubbard from his scifi books. Stories are always the same: overconfident in humanity, epic, megalomaniac, and poorly written IMHO. Quite seductive for people thirsty of exhaltation about our own capacities.

Here in France, Scientology is almost sistematicly mediatized as a rip-off sect, very powerful. Content and beliefs are never spoken of. Only that expensive courses for personal enhancement are the way they get money and adepts as a first step.

Personnaly, I am against being told how to enhance myself, against that kind of promises because they are too dangerous (you can get manipulated and you become an egocentric person). I am against secluded groups of power because it's a narrowing of the mind. I am against money-devouring projects because there are necessarily loosers...


And about religion vs sect (by religion I mean "Church", ie, an institutionnaliazed organization "channeling" the faith of the believers):
In my opinion they are both groups gathering power/money abusing people with beliefs. The only difference I see is wether they are accepted by the majority or not.
So as long as a group of faith has a strong structure and is gathering money, I would get suspicious about it.
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Post by beowuuf »

Strangely enough, i'd read a tom cruise interview the day before you first posted, and sideways the interviewer (kevin smith) had mentioend the scentology thing so it reminded me about it...had meant to check out exactly what it was, so there you go : ) i was just enjoying the syncronicity!

my opinions are about the same as everyone else's about it, but i have no research or even direct knowledge of hubbard to back it up, so didn't want to post an uninformed opinion

personally, i am worried about anything that doesn't focus you on being able to solve or go beyond your own problems, or at least look to other people rather to help strengthen you rather than a sytrange philosophy or external force to help you
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Gambit37
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Post by Gambit37 »

The initial promises of Dianetics and Scientology do promise to get you to help yourself, but the methods leave something to be desired. (sitting in a darkened room, holding two soup cans attached to a rudimentary lie detector while somebody repeats things to you which apparently allow you to clear your "reactive mind" of all the negative things it's learnt, so allowing you to move forward in your life)

The long term stuff just gets weirder and totally out there, and apparently was written by Hubbard when he was on various barbituates and drinking heavily. His procedures basically encourage people into self-hypnosis. Some have gone completely psycho and paranoid. Some commit suicide.

Some "religion"! Hubbard is even quoted as having said "It's crazy to make make a penny a word through writing. If a man wants to make a million dollars, he should start a religion"

Here's a good starting place for information debunking scientology:

www.xenu.net

And here's some interesting info about him:

http://www.clambake.org/archive/ronthenut/
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Post by Lunever »

I am wondering about what scientology is up to for quite some time, but I am still not sure what to make of it.
I am very involved with spiritualism including various religions. I think that every religion/philosophy/culture existing does have some spark of inspiriration, does have it's unique wisdom as well as it's unique blind spots. If you do not limit yourself to a single one and stay open-minded enough to view every religion without prejudice, you can learn something about it's true contents seeing beyond it's mere outer form of presentation. I also deeply resent any form of fundamentalism, no matter what religion it claims to defend, and I sincerely believe that any religious community, who refuses to understand that the divine is beyond our limited imagination in it's multitude and that all gods and godesses are just images of the incomprehensable that we mortals can comprehend, has ceased to follow the path of wisdom leading to inner harmony, one's self and God (which, in the end, is the same).

Starting from that perspective I have to be open-minded even to scientology, but on the other hand scientology seems to be a very repressive organization with little tolerance for other peoples believe while demanding that very tolerance for their own way of thinking and living by other people. I say "seems to be", because I never had an opportunity to personally speak to a scientologist about his/her views, all my information about that sect (which is synomymous with "church" for me because the way to God and Enlightment will not follow any institution) I have picked up in some mainstream media, and during the recent years I have become increasingly cautious about that kind of information. Even I once had a very bad interogation by a former employer because he thought I was a sect member just because I've read fantasy books in my regular break.

So all in all that still leaves me indecisive about scientology: Publicly available information says that it is a brainwashing fascist sect that abuses peoples quest for spirituality for purposes of money and manipulative power, but on the other hand I do not have any personal experience to back up that view. I'll probably stay indecisive until fate offers an opportunity for a real talk with a scientologist, but I am too cautious to approach that sect by normal means of contact because I do not want them to unnerve me just because I've shown some casual interest.
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Post by Jardice »

Now If I understand these post corectly, from what I am reading Scientology seems to be nothing more than a manliputive tactic that can be used to get ones own way.

But then I also see that it can be used to help strengthen someone into being able to take care of themselves. But I could be off ay a long shot and need to read this thread again.


Just from looking at this and other "knowledge heavy" topics I kinda feel I don't belong here due my lack of conprehenson skills (haha it's amazing I graduated from high school) but this isn't the place for this....I don't want to sound like I want pity and it's off topic.
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Post by cowsmanaut »

I wouldn't call it all that knowledge heavy.. it's a matter of interest. If you have a great deal of interest in the subject, you strive to know more about it and are eager to share your knowledge with others. I personally like to keep a variety of topics not directly related to DM in here.. it helps the community grow beyond. We are here because of a common interest but as people we're more 3 dimentional than that one simple interest. Why not explore those other interests?

Anyway.. one other side comment. your quote.. as I've always heard it, it has been "Do on to others, as you would have them do on to you." (are not mothers the greatest source of old sayings and "old wives tales") As such it makes more sence and leaves out the vindictive possibilities of your quote. ;)

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Jardice
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Post by Jardice »

Yeah i've been doing that on my spare time wheneve I get the chance (or when lazyness doesn't kick in).


About my quote though...Thanks for pointing that out I didn't think I made a mistake on it..it's been awhile since I heard it. Think i'll fix that.
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Post by Lunever »

Jardice: Lol, I've always thought you were a vengeful character because of the ambiguity of your former quote.
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Post by cowsmanaut »

you know it could still be unto. I've never seen it written before.. only heard. on to and unto are cervy similar sounding.

however, I would like to know how it's flawwed now. since it's saying to treat other people as you yourself would like people to treat you. The only thing I could think of is that others won't often share this ideal. However this does not flow the idea.. it simply shows that more should share in it as it is the world that is flawed in it's own "do what you want and damn the concsequences" attitude.

Like any good Religon you need to large group who share these kinds of ideals and are willing to share them with others before you can grow your following.

The concept is somewhat universal though I would say. If you look at Wiccan beleifs you have a cost for what you request of nature. IF you want a gift from your god you must lose something to balance it. Much like Karma (flowing now to annother religion) for every negitive action you do a negatie action is waiting to happen to you. If you do a positive action then positive awaits you. Christian/cotholic/jewish if you wrong your fellow man you may be sent right to hell.. if you benefit your fellow man you go to heaven. I've no idea what scientology says about this.

I think the ideal of reward and punishment based on your deeds is an old one thugh.. and might I add practiced by our parents even. One would hope anyway. I always was punished when I did wrong. If I did ecceptionaly well I got my rewards too.

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Jardice
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Post by Jardice »

To tell the truth since i've been stuck with the incorrect version the reason is pretty much off now.

The original reason, if I remember, had something to do with the fact of others inflicting, according to ones morals, somewhat bad acts on someone(like in the case of starting a fight or something worse). It was suppose to state that even if someone does "good" unto others, it may not come back unto that same someone as "good", usually due to morals.

It was orignally just a dumb joke.....hmm.. guess i'll have to think of something else now.
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Post by Sandman »

This topic goes a little bit off now, but that quote of yours, Jardice... It's quite used in our country and I am almost sure it sounds something like: "Don't do deeds which you don't want to be done on you." Maybe it sounds quite stupid in my English, but I hope you catch the point.
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Jardice
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Post by Jardice »

Actually that version makes more sense that the previous one I have heard.

Of course I still can't use that since the original reason i had before is off....oh well.
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