Harry the Nazi?

Post by **PaulH** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:30 pm

Well I guess we all have heard of this story, when Prince Harry wore a Nazi officers uniform to a private fancy dress party. I'd be interested to hear peoples' views on this, and actions that have followed.

Personally, I am stuck somewhere in the middle. On one hand it WAS a fancy dress party, where many people dress up as historical bad guys and is seen as a bit of fun. Conversely, with the rememberance of Auschwitz and the unbelievable atrocities that occurred there, it could be said that Harry's outfit was a very bad decision, especially in a person of his 'standing' Is there a length of time that passes before we can make fun of people like this? (after all we do with Guy Fawkes, Roman Emperors etc, but these of course took place centuries ago.) Is this period of history just too sensitive for us to mock?

I believe that Harry's actions were not intended to offend and was done in the spirit of 'fancy dress'. If he is guilty of anything, it is not guessing how the reactions after would be, as surely anybody with an ounce of intelligence would realise that many people would not take kindly to a prince wearing a swastika. I also firmly believe he did not mean to upset the families of victims or undermine the meaning of rememberance of the tradegies of the war, and the Nazi doings. But still, it WAS a misjudgement.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:53 pm

That pretty much sums it up, a person of his profile and standing at his age should guess at the reactions without even needing to be told, and should have acted slightly more restrained.
Then again he is young, he isn't the oldest in line, and the papers shouldnt' be crucifying his as much as they seemed to have been.

Poorly judged, leave him alone

BloodFromStone · Post by **BloodFromStone** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:14 pm

Well, it was CERTAINLY a bad decision. He should hire me as an advisor, I can tell him these things in advance. But I do agree that society has strange rules about what is ok to make fun of and what isn't. There is just a big 'ol book somewhere that lists everything we can make fun of and what we can't. Maybe it has rules and guidelines, too.

Tom Hatfield · Post by **Tom Hatfield** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:45 pm

I do'nt really see anything strange about it. Where do you live? Maybe your society is different. (I live at the north end of Elkhart, near the border of Michigan. It's sort of a different world here than it is in the rest of the U.S.) What I mean is, I find it offensive when people make light of anything inherently evil, so dressing up as a Third Reich German Nazi 3,000 years from now will still offend me. . . hypothetically. Perhaps he was trying to (unwisely) make a point about how Nationalistic Socialism is not inherently bad, but psychopathic dictators make it so. Look at Democratic Capitalism in the U.S. You'll have to forgive us. . . our "leader" is an idiot, too. God bless the electoral college.

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:02 pm

funny imho. "we" nazis weren't worse than usa or russia and on the total highscore of mass-murder and genocide "we" are maybe at the end of the top 10. if he disguised as stalin, it would have beed half the trouble - if any. this nazi costume makes people think about that - about all those lies which were spread about "us" and that hurts of course. it makes people recognize they believed to propaganda.
before you get a wrong picture of me: i'm not even close to a neo-nazi, in fact i'm very tolerant and left-winged, but i get sick and tired about all the shit that is told about "us", american newspapers called "us" "hitler's children" (not too far ago...) and so on, all with only one meaning: to oppress us. in fact, germany is one of the most hospitable, friendly and multi-cultural nations on the world, maybe even the most one. all that nazi-stuff which is connected to today looks satirical to me. "we" learned our lesson, unlike others...

Post by **PaulH** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:09 am

How do you mean 'we'? I am sure that people do not think Germans are Nazis: I don't know anybody who does and if the media has printed something of this nature then they are severely at fault.
Many countries down the line of history have produced people(s) of dubious nature, but to tar all people with the same brush is just, well, extremely short sighted.

"I do'nt really see anything strange about it", said Tom Hatfield.

Yeah don't we just hate it when people have bad punctuation?!!!

DaveTheMiller · Post by **DaveTheMiller** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:34 am

Hello I am a newcomer to these boards and my debut post will be a response to this subject.
Before I address Prince Harry I would like to point out that nowhere did the originator of this post say anything about Germany being full of Nazis, I find it strange that a German person would refer to themselves as "we" Nazis.
I have traversed the world and met many German people, and found them all to be friendly and as disgusted by what the Nazis did as any other decent thinking person. It is accepted world over that the war was against Nazis and at the time many German people were against what Hitler did, but as with any dictatorship they were scared to oppose.
Do you consider all Iraqis terrorists? No, so I think you have made an issue out of something that wasn't implied.
Regarding Harry, he is a very silly boy simply because the world feels it has a duty to react and being he is royalty it was like shark to the surfers leg. Seeing a drunken youth at a fancy dress party probably genuinely offends about 1% of the population but it is deemed necessary to be outraged just so people can see what a decent person they are who is horrified by such things.
What happened in the past was horrific, but it's happened now and Nazis only exist in small groups spread over the world, spouting their hatred to no one but other hate filled morons because no one else cares.
Next everyone with a stupid moustache will be jumped on because they will be seen as paying homage to Adolf Hitler, it is a sad sign of the times that the world is so politically corredt and the hypocritical media fuels this by making an issue so they can sell a few more copies of their rag.

DaveTheMiller

purple1 · Post by **purple1** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:57 am

All I can say is that he is screwed. BIG MISTAKE. My friend and I make jokes about Nazis all the time, but at the same time we do realize how serious the Holocaust was. I can't believe that anyone would pull a stunt like that.

DaveTheMiller · Post by **DaveTheMiller** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:09 am

Sorry Purple I find that a tad hypocritical. You make jokes about Nazis but thats fine because you realise how serious the holocaust was?
So do you think a terrorist is oblivious to the seriousness of blowing up a building or a murderer has no idea that firing a bullet at someones eye is going to end their days of breathing really fast?
At the end of the day Harry was a fool for what he did but I think people who openly joke about the holocaust aren't really in a position to get all moralistic about it.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:01 am

I think anyone taking the 'we' seriously said by sucinum should recheck the context!
But it is true, that sterotype is still lingering in older minds and handed down subtly to younger. In a way it's shocking that Harry dressed up like he did, but in a way it's good that the focus on Nazi's and the war has shifted, lessened. Not that we don't need to heed the lessons of the war, remember and make sure that that attrocituies that happened can never happen again. But it almost becomes like a sop for our thinking. Oh, yes 60 years ago those evil soldiers lead by that evil man did the most attrocious things to other people, safely back then.
As was mentioned, Stalin's drive and ambitions and war efforts killed many, many, many more Russians than any attrocity and other battlefield cost of the war. Yet that is never the focus. But as he only inflicted the suffering on his own people, he is not put in the same 'league' as Hilter, he was 'merely' another dictator. Is it because we fear the evil that could strike out at us? A dictator only inflicts his evil on his own, so that's ok, it's happening to others, it won't intrude on our lives so we can give them our pity in a news bulliten then go back to our lives and own worries. Look at the recent war on Iraq. Saddam a threat, let's get rid of him now...pity about all the Iraqies that died before, that die now...but hey, he can't plan to hurt us anymore.

For the war (second world war, not gulf), my feelings were always Hitler's rise to power was because of the west creating the right conditions after the first world war, more than anything else. After a war that no one truely started, it was merely the powderkeg of tensions erupting.
We in britain would have abstained or even sided in a small way with germany in the first world war, were it not for the more agggresive keiser who took power after his father. Yet after the war, the german people were so heavily crippled by the remaining victors seeking reparations for a war that just came from the most basest drives in human nature from all sides, that it left this vaccuum for an evil, driven yet charasmatic man to gain a hold and twist that into something else.

Europe and the settlers who turned into America inflicted the most hideous genocide to the populations in the americas. Britain's empire building still leaves cracks and divisions that can be seen today. And yet we don't focus on that, we can't seem to react in undue horror as America and Russia, with the rest, manage to drive us into a cold war with a stupid arms race that eventually took one man to say 'enough' about. That interferece with boundaries have created so much conflicts in the middle east and elsewhere.

There is a banality of evil all around us, all the time. It's too easy to stay inside your own head, and when you are pushed by circumstances or the opinions of those 'in control' it is simple to objectivy and villify anyone, anything else. Fear of the other person, a person who is like you, turning to contempt and hatred. Truely evil men are rare, those that know exactly what they are doing, take pleasure in it. Mere badness that causes most of the suffering is too common and easy. To love your family and friends and country so much that you twist it to hate and can only see inflciting death as a way of expressing and ending the 'threat'.

Anyway, this is a way off topic rant fro mthe original post that I've walked away from for too long, so I'll jsut end it and see what's been written....

Post by **Gambit37** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:02 am

Would the reaction have been the same had it been a contemporary artist who had done it? Maybe the media would have reacted with the self-assured pomposity of post-modernism and congratulated said artist on their satirical and cutting social observation?

Whatever. What harry did was inappropriate, sure, but the guy is 20 years old, he's grown up in the public eye, is the [allegedly] bastard child of another man other than Charles and his mother died in the most horrific and public way imaginable. I think the lad can be forgiven for going off the rails from time to time -- how many of you would be so stable at that age having gone through so much? Give the guy a break.

On the issue of society having rules about what you can make fun of, well, there lies the rub. Christians have been ridiculed and persecuted for centuries but no-body gets up in arms about it. But put on a play set in an islamic temple and it seems like you'll attract a mob and have to cancel the entire show. It seems odd that we live in super sensitive times whereby -- for example -- it's not PC to criticise or satirise Islam but it's perfectly acceptable to have an opera celebrating low life scum and ridiculing Christians. It's bananas, and just such a situation should never be tolerated.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:11 am

Unless someone is giving every last penny and scrap of clothing and morsel of food away to people who need it, and are devoting their lives to making the world better by going over and helping in countries that need it, or even just in their own country or city or street ever day, then they aren't fully entitled to be moralistic. We're just all people sitting at home on computers discussing issues that are happening to other peoploe, with all our insights and shortcomings.

DaveTheMiller · Post by **DaveTheMiller** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:15 am

In that respect we are our own worst enemies.
I have many black and asian friends, many muslim friends and most of them are embarrassed by the fact that white people feel the need to jump to their "defence" and label this racist, that racist, the other racist or whatever.
You hear black people call each other "nigger" all the time and I don't think 90% of black people would be offended by a white person referring to them as that (unless it was in a defamotary way ie preceded by the words "you stupid..." but even then that would be an objection to the fact they were being insulted) but super PC white groups lobby for the word to be banned.
Call me a Brit I won't be offended, call a citizen of Pakistan a paki and you could end up in jail! It's not even offensive, it's only offensive again if it was preceded by the words "you f___ing b__tard."
Racism is horrific but if these PC idiots tag innocent people with the racist brush by making harmless remarks be taken out of context, if they actually concentrated on flushing out and dealing with real racists then I think we'd all get along a lot better but we can all dream

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:17 am

The rules always seem to stem from that you can't joke about things when you don't know if it's goign to be taken as funny or not, that's the sad thing.
You can joke about the Nazi's now, becuase everyone knows the things done by them were Bad Things, only a handful of whackos are out there. Make the same joke about Iraqies or those religions/races classed as potential terrorist generators at the moment - won't be taken the same way, because there would be people not taking it with any irony at all.

Either everything is open or nothing is...

DaveTheMiller · Post by **DaveTheMiller** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:21 am

Don't you find it slightly ironic then that a very popular choice for fancy dress in 2004 was Osama Bin Laden?

Post by **PaulH** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:22 am

Remember the comedy terrorist, Aaron Barschat, or whatever his name was? He seemed to be viewed as a 'joke' and many other sketches poke fun at Laden and Hussain. Its an odd world.

Post by **Gambit37** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:22 am

Either everything is open or nothing is...

Exactly my point. How can it be one rule for "us" another for "them" (whoever them and us might be). There lies the road to a moral majority somehow being perceived as having the right to make those judgements. Which is rubbish of course, but political sensitivites allow it to happen.

How far does it go? Violence perpetrated in the name of racism is a 'hate crime' in the UK. The government wants to make it the same for religion. But why do others not get the same treatment? It's still not considered a hate crime to perpetrate violence on someone who's homosexual. It's insane.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:22 am

Words hurt by intention, never the word. PC groups go after the language, but it's like papering over cracks. Reducing communication was never the way to breed tolerance. Open up minds and breaking down barriers to communication, to empathy, that's the real challenge and way to stop racism and any other -ism.

All it does is breeds the resentment more, as banning communication merely attacks the racism like pushign down an air bubble in wallpaper...it isn't going anywhere! It's just being forced to hide.
Any word can become bad when the meanign of it changes.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:25 am

DaveTheMiller wrote:Don't you find it slightly ironic then that a very popular choice for fancy dress in 2004 was Osama Bin Laden?

Nah, Osama Bin Laden is a Bad Man, so everyone knows its a joke. How many fancy dress costumes were just a generic robe/head-dress with a dynamite belt to wrap around? Or an american soldier in desert combats? That might be a more interesting statistic!

Post by **PaulH** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:27 am

You do get plenty of army, navy and raf based costumes

DaveTheMiller · Post by **DaveTheMiller** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:27 am

Oh i agree but why is it ok for people like Will Smith, Lenny Henry and the Kumars to crack jokes about white people (which I find funny to be fair) but if a white person cracks the same joke it is breaking the law and there will be front page coverage of the racist comedian?

Post by **Gambit37** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:29 am

Exactly. Here's my considered and thoughtful comment to your query: Because it's bollocks.

DaveTheMiller · Post by **DaveTheMiller** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:30 am

Seriously you can by latex Bin laden face masks from any fancy dress place, it says Osama Bin laden on the packet, I saw a load when I was going to a party a while back and needed a costume, I asked the shop owner did he seriously sell any of those and they said it was all the rage at the minute.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:31 am

I always find it useful in complexity to think of evil as simply 'when you treat somone or something as an object, or as less than yourself'.

Is the subject being attacked with genuine hatred as if it hey have less rights or reason to exist? Bad (jokewise). Similarly a hate-crime can be definted as anything where the subject was attacked for beign who there were, as if that was the only justification needed.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:36 am

PaulH wrote:You do get plenty of army, navy and raf based costumes

Yeah, just wonder if people would be a little more hesitant with the current war going on to dress as an actual coillition soldier jsut now *shrug*

DaveTheMiller wrote:Oh i agree but why is it ok for people like Will Smith, Lenny Henry and the Kumars to crack jokes about white people (which I find funny to be fair) but if a white person cracks the same joke it is breaking the law and there will be front page coverage of the racist comedian?

It's again prejudice on intent - its assumed all non-white people aren't racist and all white people are. So ban one thing but allow another.
I'm sure you could reverse that statement for rap, by the way. How much more seriously is any fronted lyric by a black singer taken than by a white singer?

Post by **PaulH** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:38 am

"Yeah, just wonder if people would be a little more hesitant with the current war going on to dress as an actual coillition soldier jsut now *shrug*"

Goes back to the heart of my original post. Is there a time and place, and where and when? And by whom?

DaveTheMiller · Post by **DaveTheMiller** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:41 am

But surely the main issue is why on earth is it assumed all white people are racist? I'd love to know where that idea came from, was it the slave trade or maybe the rise of Combat 18 in the 80s?
What exactly did white people do that anyone alive today can remember that so fittingly tags us all with being racists.
Because anyone with a brain knows not all muslims are terrorists, not all black people are gangsters, not all Irish are republican bombers, not all Americans are fat etc, but yet somehow white people are assumed and judged by the actions of a few right winged idiots.

Post by **Gambit37** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:43 am

Hey, Dave, please consider registering -- It's great to have you onboard, and you've posted a lot already. If you register, you can grab an avatar, edit your posts, send private messages to other people, etc. It's worth it and helps us maintain the database better. Cheers.

BTW, I edited your post and deleted those two extras in case you were wondering...

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:46 am

And only 29.99 a month, with only the best spammers soliciting you : )

Nah, it's free and just run by people who like DM and arguing. Interestign to see someone taking the plunge into serious discussions right away...you are either opinionated or ballsy or both

DaveTheMiller · Post by **DaveTheMiller** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:46 am

OK I'll just fill out the form now 2 mins.
This is a good little board I like the passionate debates.