What the... Snow in June, then in August!

A forum for discussing world news, ideas, concepts and possibly controversial topics including religion and politics. WARNING: may contain strong opinions or strong language. This does not mean anything goes though!
Forum rules
Please read the Forum rules and policies before posting.
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

i love these conversations... :)
keep your gor coin handy
gerganrab
Apprentice
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:35 pm

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by gerganrab »

wow you people are just too deep. I'm having a hard time following this thread, it's just so involved. But intieging? heck yeah! keep it up GB
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

it's not a war gergenrab :) we like to debate, we use wooden swords and then drink together when done
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

About 500 million years ago CO2 levels were about 20 times today's levels, and I do remember from my Geology class last summer that global sea levels were far higher then they are today, in fact about 50% of North America's present day landmass was underwater. Then CO2 levels dropped off and sea levels also dropped off exposing the previously underwater parts of North America's land.
what is not factored in here is that it wasn't the sea rising and falling only, the land mass has gone up and down, the earth moves up and down all the time. the reports they are using are not scientific here, this is one of many things wrong with data collected. andit is usually shores that rise and fall from continents colliding, more work needs to be done before any REAL scientist can put their name on it. the data they collect is from shoreline observations, it's not accurate at all.
Last edited by Chaos-Shaman on Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
keep your gor coin handy
gerganrab
Apprentice
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:35 pm

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by gerganrab »

I like it. I stumbled on this site like a month ago just cuz I was feeling in a retro way looking for an old favorite game and I have found so much more! even beyond the oodles of dungeons to explore theres this thriving debate which is so much better than the mass media provides! so when I say keep at it I mean that and for my 2pence there was a time when earth was so warm there were giant lizards walking around and there was a time when earth was so cold there were big hairy elephants walking around and neither time were there enough humans burning enough stuff to make a difference. we haven't even had the instruments to measure this stuff so carefully to say "yeah the earth is approx 1.1 degree warmer than it was whenever" for less than 100 years so who is to say? really it's just a tick of the big cosmic clock GB
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

you're right gerganrab, time is something that needs TIME to understand :) i certainly don't believe everything i am told coming from scientists, it's all in the wording. there are certain words that shoud not be used in science especially if it is used as a fear tactic. i do get tired of being talked to like child, and scientists have been wrong from the very beginning of time recorded, things change as we learn, so to use 30 years of data (let's just say that that means how long we here in the forum have been gathering info) that it would be enough to come up with the conclusions from poorly contructed models from what little we know in that time. it's not realistic, it may seem so and people have a right to care and want better for the earth but that's not what they're doing, but instead are taking advantage of people which i can't personally stand for. i am in all support of man, i care for man, i do not believe man is the bad guy, just here, so if we want to think of being here not natural i have a problem with that. just ask the spirits :)
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

http://www.weather-forecast.com/maps/Arctic

some of you might find this interesting, just have a look at how cold the northerm hemisphere is right now, been that way for months, bar EU and BC coast which i might add had winter before it was winter.

if there was CO2 holding in the heat, i'd like to know where it is with this map, does anyone even know how such a thing can happen? does the CO2 go south or something, or does it just vanish? please check this map a month from now and see, and tell me what happens to the CO2 when it does get this cold. please explain with scientific data how this satellite data can be so with rising CO2 levels, i'd like to know or at least hear the explanations, try and convince me we're in control of this.

wooden swords only :)
keep your gor coin handy
gerganrab
Apprentice
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:35 pm

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by gerganrab »

All i know is I like puppies and one is chewing on my toes right now so whatever I can do to ensure the world is safe for future generations of puppies then I will do that GB
User avatar
Seriously Unserious
Master Superior
Posts: 1418
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 11:53 am
Location: Wandering around aimlessly in Lynchgate Woods
Contact:

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Wow, there's a lot to reply to here so I'll just get started an hopefully I don't miss anything...
Chaos-Shaman wrote:neither venus or mercury have water which is my point, and oddly enough water is the most biggest grenhouse gas we have on the planet, it holds heat well.
I'm not disputing that. In both cases there's a reason why they don't have water, both elements are available on both planets, but in the case of Mercury, the planet's too small and too close to the sun, any water that does happen to form there is burnt off immediately.

In the case of Venus, the planet's so hot due to the 98% CO2 atmosphere that liquid water can't form, even water vapor can't form, it just reacts with other elements and chemicals and forms things like sulfuric acid and such. The reason both planets do not have water is not because hydrogen and oxygen do not exist on them but because their environments are too hostile to the existence of water for any to form. In the case of Venus, the only way the planet could cool off is if somehow water were to form there and start reacting with the CO2 to form hydrochloric acid, which could then rain down to the surface, thus reducing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, and thus allowing some excess heat to escape, allowing more water to form, and continuing this process. So actually, although water vapor is a good greenhouse gas, it's liquid counterpart, condensed clouds of water droplets actually reflect and block the sun's energy from reaching the surface, so water's only a reliable GW contributor if temperatures where it occurs are too hot for it to condense (Like on Venus for example). Another effect water has is, well remember that speculation, that what if scenario of water somehow forming on Venus? Well that's exactly the scenario that happened on Earth, about 4.5 billion years ago. Here's a good estimate of what Earth would have looked like back then, in a time known as the Hadean Aeon:
Image
So, at around this time, we get Hydrogen atoms reacting with Oxygen atoms, as they are off-gassed from the interior of our planet, being light elements and very reactive. So they combine and form water vapor (Earth's still very, very hot at this time), which in tern, condenses and forms water droplets. Earth has a lot of CO2 gas in it's primitive atmosphere, which helped keep Earth hot at the time, along with large amounts of water vapor and volatile elements that react with each other to form other materials, one of which was oxlygen, but at that time there was so little of it that it all immediately combines with elements like Hydrogen, Carbon or Iron to form materials like more water vapor, CO2 gas and Iron Oxide (or rusty iron). Some of this water vapor managed to condense and fall as rain, but as it condensed soluble CO2 gasses dissolved into the water making it very acidic (carbonic acid - H2CO3). Still, this process did take a great deal of CO2 gas out of the atmosphere, contributing to global cooling. Also, by about 2.8 billion years ago, another thing started to happen that would further reduce the amount of CO2 gas in our atmosphere, and add free Oxygen gas (O2) to the atmosphere, Life, and the process of photosynthesis. This began breaking down that dissolved CO2 gas in the water, separating it into it's component Carbon and Oxygen elements. Some of this Oxygen would react with other nearby Oxygen atoms to form O2 with would some of which would off-gas from the water into the atmosphere.

Then we get to about 1.5 billion years ago and the first big explosion of life, and the process really takes off now until we get to about 400 million years ago when we get the first land plants forming, and taking more CO2 gas out of our early atmosphere and replacing it with O2, making it possible for land animals to evolve, which happened about 360 million years ago, in the form of the first amphibians, which were basically aquatic fishes and reptiles that started crawling onto land.

So this in a nutshell is the processes that lead to our planet going from that red, fiery hell of the Hadean times to the blue bubble of life we live in now.

As for the rising and falling sea levels, yes, there was more at work then just a freeze-thaw cycle going on there, but the freeze-thaw cycle did play a major role in it. Water was also being displaced by faster then normal spreading of the seafloors along plate boundaries, and that displaced ocean floors upwards around these boundaries, and downwards along the collision boundaries, further speeding up oceanic plate movement. The net result of this would was water being displaced upwards, both factors combining to create these vast inland seas that covered much of the present day continent of North America.

As for the only collecting 30 years of satellite data, that may be true, but we've also been collecting accurate temperature readings dating back into the 19th century from surface level thermometers. We also have accurate estimates of pre-thermometer temperatures and climates from methods of using rocks, trees, glaciers and fossils to determine what conditions were like for as far back as we can get a rock record for, which in areas like the Grand Canyon can be many hundreds of millions of years. In places like the Canadian Shield, we can get rocks dating all the way back to over 4 billion years ago, that give us good clues as to what the environment was like back then.

So while we can't get exacting temperature readings from before the invention of the thermometer, we can get an accurate representation of the overall climates and atmospheric conditions from the rocks. This is because each type of climate produces a very distinctive sediment pattern which is reflected in certain types of rocks that are formed out of sediments (sediments are the broken down remains of other rocks) which tell us what type of climate existed in an area. Deserts produce a distinct rock pattern, consisting of sandstones of a certain type, ocean floors produce their own set of rocks, mainly limestone and siltstone, rivers produce yet another set of rocks, as do shores, as do swamps, as to glaciers as do mountains and as do flat plains. SO by looking at the rocks we can determine whether it was windy or calm, wet or dry, hot or cold, dry land or ocean, plus many, many more things about what it was like back then.

As for this year's cold winter, first of all, the CO2 gas hasn't gone anywhere. Many different factors can influence the weather besides just CO2 gas. A variation in ocean currents, the El Nino/La Nina cycle, changes in the Sun's output, changes in Earth's magnetic field, increased/decreased volcanic activity all play a role, in addition to many more things too numerous to get into here. There were 2 major volcanic eruptions that I know of, but a little digging produced a number of eruptions totaling 83. This many eruptions, depending on the sizes of them, could trigger a volcanic winter, especially if you combine that with the current sun cycle which would mean receiving less energy from the sun, and less of it getting through due to suspended volcanic debris. So basically the CO2 is still there, but the greenhouse effect of it is being overshadowed by the cooling effects of volcanic activity and lower then normal sun output.

In fact, in my Geology class, we did cover the little ice age and how it may actually have been the start of a new major glaciation period, a part of the last ice age that we thought had ended 10000 years ago when it really may not have ended yet. We may have interrupted a major glaciation with our CO2 emissions and human caused global warming. Of course that's just speculation based on what data we have available and there are many other reasons why the Little Ice Age ended.

Here's some food for thought, maybe global warming stopped the start of an ice age and has delayed it by a few hundred years but the conditions contributing to a new glaciation are still there and what we're seeing now is them now overpowering the human caused global warming and an ice age in imminent, despite what we're doing. Maybe we never really left the Geological Pleistocene Epoch (the time of the last ice age, ranging from about 1.8 million years ago to about 10000 years ago)... :P
Actually, that is a valid point, the ice age was not 1.8 million years of wall-to-wall ice, it consisted of periods of advancing ice, with periods of retreating ice. The periods of advancing ice are referred to as a Glaciation, and the periods of retreating ice are referred to as an Interglacial Period. Ice Age interglacial periods lasted for anywhere from a few thousand years to 20000, 300000 or 40000 years, before the ice would advance again and much of the land would again be buried under miles of ice. So about 10000 years since the last of the ice retreated would fit the timeline of an interglacial period of the latest Ice Age.
Chaos-Shaman wrote:BUT if we can get off this blue marble we might continue in some way.
As the human race biological entity, perhaps, but my experience tells me we've been around for longer than we realize. Not as the human race obviously, but we have been around in other ways...

Anyhow, thanks for posting the links to those articles, at least now I have an idea of where your data is coming from. It's much easier to understand where a person is coming from if I have the data that person is working with. Without the data it's only someone's opinion, which may or may not be true and I have no way of knowing just on a person's say so. With the data I can analyze it for myself and decide whether it's true for me or not, and whether I agree with your interpretation of it or not. Now I better understand why you're arguing what your arguing, and saying what you're saying. I don't necessarily have to agree with it, but at least I can better understand your point of view now.
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

although water vapor is a good greenhouse gas, it's liquid counterpart, condensed clouds of water droplets actually reflect and block the sun's energy from reaching the surface, so water's only a reliable GW contributor if temperatures where it occurs are too hot for it to condense (Like on Venus for example).
some climatologists, like the fella who is in charge of some of our climate\weather satellites are saying that it depends on what type of clouds. low dense clouds cool the planet, higher thin clouds warm the planet. this is a cycle that the earth goes through. so according to those scientists it goes both ways.
especially if you combine that with the current sun cycle which would mean receiving less energy from the sun
right now it is at its solar max, so even with the solar max we're still seing a cold winter, for where i live it has been cool pretty much with a few exceptions since 2008, it just depends where one is. that's 6 years of lousy gardening for me :( hopefully you'll dig up the actual records of the past decade and a half. don't use any charts that include preindustrial reading, just the last decade and a half. it is known that the earth even though has been very warm in places like BC and Australia with the land of extremes with 5 deserts, the overal temp has changed little even as pop grows and CO2 rises that in terms of measurment a grain of sand on a beach. this does not go well with climate models. what i will do is when these articles come up with graphs n stuff, i'll post em for ya, i know you still don't believe me :( heh, no worries, i'll dig up the info.
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

In fact, in my Geology class, we did cover the little ice age and how it may actually have been the start of a new major glaciation period, a part of the last ice age that we thought had ended 10000 years ago when it really may not have ended yet. We may have interrupted a major glaciation with our CO2 emissions and human caused global warming. Of course that's just speculation based on what data we have available and there are many other reasons why the Little Ice Age ended.

Here's some food for thought, maybe global warming stopped the start of an ice age and has delayed it by a few hundred years but the conditions contributing to a new glaciation are still there and what we're seeing now is them now overpowering the human caused global warming and an ice age in imminent, despite what we're doing. Maybe we never really left the Geological Pleistocene Epoch (the time of the last ice age, ranging from about 1.8 million years ago to about 10000 years ago)...
Actually, that is a valid point, the ice age was not 1.8 million years of wall-to-wall ice, it consisted of periods of advancing ice, with periods of retreating ice. The periods of advancing ice are referred to as a Glaciation, and the periods of retreating ice are referred to as an Interglacial Period. Ice Age interglacial periods lasted for anywhere from a few thousand years to 20000, 300000 or 40000 years, before the ice would advance again and much of the land would again be buried under miles of ice. So about 10000 years since the last of the ice retreated would fit the timeline of an interglacial period of the latest Ice Age.
i call this speculation, i don't see any of our records being accurate here, so when it comes to time it depends on where we think tings stop and start. from what i know we're still in a warming period.
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

real nice postings SU, i enjoyed every bit of it :)
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Seriously Unserious
Master Superior
Posts: 1418
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 11:53 am
Location: Wandering around aimlessly in Lynchgate Woods
Contact:

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Thanks, it took me a long time to write and research all that, so it's good to know the effort was appreciated.

One thing I forgot to mention, is last week in BC we were setting records for the warmest temperatures for a few days, so yeah, I haven't been seeing any of this global cooling you're talking about here. It's cooled off quite a bit now. Still, looking at the types of effects volcanoes can have on our weather and climate it makes me think of those bizarre dry spells we had last year in BC and especially in Vancouver. We got almost no rain at all in October, which is usually one of our rainier months.
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

it has been a little whacky everywhere, but if you have been paying attention to the suns activities and not the UN, NOAA, IPCC, you'll get a better picture. that information is always plastered everywhere, the info i search for is NOT plastered everywhere, i'm not the type to get in a boat just because everyone is getting into it, i'll check for leaks first. i said way back in this thread topic that the boat they're jumping into is already full, full of scared poeple who in most cases refuse to either research the information or are happy to believe what they're told or fear has a grip on them, you know... the self preservation thingy. did you check out the satellite temps link map posted. it shows how cold the entire N hem is, there is no CO2 warming going on right now, we're freezing our butts off. i told you about the climate shift in 1976 during which time places like Alaska warmed which includes pretty much most of the west coast of N America, and it doesn't take a brain surgeon (i might like that job) to understand that the ring of fire is in the Pacific, not the Atlantic, and since then activity has been up, explains the warmer ocean, explains the mild temps and explains the fluctuations. volcanic activity is on the rise, we can all see that i hope. i explained about the volcanoes under the Arctic that have also been melting the sea ice from below. i explained the suns output, also how the soot that forms on the snow\ice gets darker and starts to melt making little lakes that eventually melt through and drain that is caused from fires and burning fuels and dust from the deserts etc, i explained how the earth was going through a change through magnetics, i explained how some scientists have different theories, especially the ones who don't get paid by govs although there are some like the guy who is head of our weather\climate satellite data. i explained a lot of things but MOST OF ALL, how people are using fear to control us, how to mind condition others into believing what ever best suites them. an example would be the Chemical Weapons in Iraq, we all thought there was, even me at first, but later found out when it was over it was all lies. we've been fed disinforamtion so many times that people should be able to pick up on it on their own now. for me, i'll wait another 20 years before i will make up my mind, a good scientist has patients, the world is not going to disappear in that time, nor will we stop using fossil fuels, so to me it is a no brainer on my actions.

what i liked most of all is there was one person who spent some time and attempted to prove the GW theory, that'd be you SU, YOU :)
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Seriously Unserious
Master Superior
Posts: 1418
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 11:53 am
Location: Wandering around aimlessly in Lynchgate Woods
Contact:

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Seriously Unserious »

I did a search on earth's past temperatures and found this interesting site that about them: http://scotese.com/climate.htm

Here's a graph of ancient temperatures going back to about 520 million years ago.
Image

Here's a table of mean temperatures by decade: http://www.currentresults.com/Environme ... rature.php
Decade °C °F
1880s 13.73 56.71
1890s 13.75 56.74
1900s 13.74 56.73
1910s 13.72 56.70
1920s 13.83 56.89
1930s 13.96 57.12
1940s 14.04 57.26
1950s 13.98 57.16
1960s 13.99 57.18
1970s 14.00 57.20
1980s 14.18 57.52
1990s 14.31 57.76
2000s 14.51 58.12
This site give a great explanation of how temperature and climate records are developed: http://www.eoearth.org/view/article/151832/

This is a temperature graph for much of recorded human history:
Image
This neither proves nor disproves human caused climate change, but it does show that the climate does shift periodically, at somewhat irregular intervals. The famous hockey stick shape near the end does show a rapid reversal of a gradual cooling trend which does coincide with the increasing use of fossil fuels of the late industrial age of the mid 19th century.

Based on my research, the temperatures we're experiencing now are within the normal range of temperatures, in fact Earth has been much warmer then it is today, to the point of tropical rainforests extending almost to the poles, and it's been much colder then it is now too, with the most extreme being the Snowball Earth Theory explained here: http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispee ... _Earth.htm : which basically shows that the Earth was completely covered in ice from about 750 million years ago until about 580 million years ago, when the earth started warming up enough for the ice to start melting. There are many theories as to what could have caused such an extreme freeze-over of our planet, one of the most likely being that because most of the landmass was located over the equator and land is a terrible energy absorber when compared to water, the earth just couldn't absorb enough heat to remain warm, other theories are that new lifeforms using photosynthesis consumed too much CO2 and the earth lost too much of its greenhouse capabilities causing a cool-down, bit IMO both are likely co-contributors to this. In other words, poor heat retention from both low CO2 and too much land and not enough ocean at the equator meant the earth lost too much heat to remain warm. when the ice started forming, the earth would have also become vastly more reflective as well, further adding to the cool-down in a positive feedback loop (conditions where the effects of something intensify whatever they caused, further intensifying the original cause, and thus intensifying the effect and so on continuously until something else breaks the cycle).

The main issue at hand then seems to be not whether or not the current temperatures are unnatural, but whether or not the current trend is unnatural. Are temperatures raising faster then in a natural change? Are they going in the opposite direction to what they should be without human intervention (ie raising when all other conditions besides the increase in CO2 levels in our atmosphere would indicate they should be falling)? Or perhaps raising when they should be naturally remaining stable?

There could certainly be a convincing argument made that the Little Ice Age of about 1300 to 1870 was in fact the beginning of another major ice age glaciation and the "normal" conditions we've been recording for the past few thousand years were really an interglacial period (temporary warming and retreat of glaciers during an ice age) of the Pleistocene Ice Age and that it really never ended. If so then one could argue that the reason the Little Ice Age ended is that by introducing more CO2 and other greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere we increased the greenhouse effect of our atmosphere and counteracted a natural global cooling period either delaying or stopping a new major glaciation.

Regardless of what climatic effects these pollutants are having, they still are poisons that we're putting in the air we breath, the water we drink and the food we eat, which does turn all these necessities of life into slow acting poisons. In this way we turn doing the very things we need to do to live into things that kill us slowly. That's in addition to them having at least the potential to unnaturally alter our climate in ways we don't yet understand, due to the interactions of all these unnatural substances with each other and all the naturally occurring substances in our environment. So regardless of the effects we're having on our climate, that's only one part of our environment and we must make the changes needed to live clean, work clean, grow clean, move clean and build clean.

Never mind single issue arguments, they really don't matter in the big picture, we need to stop arguing about whether or not we should and whether or not we can change our technology to clean technology and find ways to make it happen.

Instead of making excuses of why we can't do that, let's try the approach of "How can we do that?" That's a much more productive mindset to approach problems with and is far, far more likely to lead to solutions then the "We can't do that!" approach. As soon as you say "we can't do that!" you've just defeated yourself before you've even started and will be certain to fail at whatever it is that "we can't do." Ask "how can we do that?" and if there is a solution, and in my experience there pretty much always is, you will be setting yourself up to find it.
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

The main issue at hand then seems to be not whether or not the current temperatures are unnatural, but whether or not the current trend is unnatural. Are temperatures raising faster then in a natural change? Are they going in the opposite direction to what they should be without human intervention (ie raising when all other conditions besides the increase in CO2 levels in our atmosphere would indicate they should be falling)? Or perhaps raising when they should be naturally remaining stable?
yeah, and from what you posted it just goes to show there will be something, whether we're the cause of it or not won't matter, as you know i believe we are natural in our presence, what we do no matter what it is, is a natural process, that includes burning fuels. we are a part of a greater process still not defined yet, we still ask ourselves why are we here and what comes next. i guess you can say i am not worried about dying personally, although many fear death and change. i do want to live long enough to see my great grandchildren, and i may achieve this yet, maybe they'll be the ones to find the solution to mans troubles, or help man reach out into space. ne thng is for sure, life will go on after we're gone from this planet.
Regardless of what climatic effects these pollutants are having, they still are poisons that we're putting in the air we breath, the water we drink and the food we eat, which does turn all these necessities of life into slow acting poisons. In this way we turn doing the very things we need to do to live into things that kill us slowly. That's in addition to them having at least the potential to unnaturally alter our climate in ways we don't yet understand, due to the interactions of all these unnatural substances with each other and all the naturally occurring substances in our environment. So regardless of the effects we're having on our climate, that's only one part of our environment and we must make the changes needed to live clean, work clean, grow clean, move clean and build clean.
this is called self preservation, i understand that, but what people usually don't consider is, maybe that's what we do, this is mans way. i do not see this being evil, quite the contrary. it is quite possible we're suppose to die off in this way, a consideration that not many think about. wouldn't it be better for the planet if we did not exist. perhaps the way we look at ourselves needs to be addressed. how can anyone argue we're good for the planet right, do you see what i am getting at. a psychological point of view is to understand that EVERYBODY thinks we're killing the planet and if you were to ask them to stop what they're doing and live basic, do you think they'd stop, drop all their bad ways of life all in support of saving the planet, i hardly think so. do you thnk all the AGW believers are going to give up all that to prove they're serious about saving the world (which by the way does not need saving). you see, this is where i get involved. i know they won't, and the only thing going on right now is fear driven, and they want MONEY for it. put simply, why not just stop making the things that pollute, why doesn't our government put an end to it, if it were that serious you'd think they would right. i am prepared to live basic, but nobody else is, so why should i pay for what they do? it is because they are ALL addicts to energy, govs know that we'll burn all our fossil fuels, of course we will, even coal. what they really want is for us to pay now for expensive energies in order to prolong how long it lasts. if anyone here thinks in 200 years we won't be still burning what we have i suggest to them to have a closer look how that could even be possible with todays population just coming online to what we've had for 100 years, think about it. do we really think they could afford the new energy, especially after we have raped their resources to the greedy businesses that fund our activities, not a chance. this is a psychological thing, and ther eis nothing we can do about it. money makes the world go round, something has to be picked, burned, processed, stolen, etc, and unless there is a miracle like Jesus or some other thing like that pop up, thisprocess will never stop, which is why i have said we're doing what we're going to do, o matter waht. buying a car that is thought to be more green is not going to solve a thing, but it will help others cope with our feelings on how to self preserve, it's all psychological..

as you pointed out above, they are all theories, and data we collect is just not accurate, i think everyone should know that. over the years i have lost faith in scientists who use any kind of a scare title to gain recognition for their work, our short term past is littered with it. it is too easy to ride on the back of fear and grant money because of it. remember, these scientists have to make a living too, they'd do anything for a dollar under desperate times. let me point out how stupid this can be. there is a guy who spent 150,000 to hunt an endangered animal saying it will help the species, this guy is big game hunter and he wants to say he bagged one, and he doesn't care how much money it costs to do it. if this guy was real at what he was saying, he'd just hand the money over instead of killing the animal. this shows how dirty money is, this is what is happening to the carbon tax credits, but there is way more sinister things going on about this that the average joe doesn't know about or even consider. it is desgned for rich countries to constrict the poor countries from growing, designed to use up their resources while big countries continue to manufacture and grow, they can't afford to pollute once they sell those credits off. this is desgned for population control, one sided control, and that i do not like. greed is rampant, money, resources and the ultimate of it, power. everyone works the same SU, they all do. i ask you this, try taking a car or the use of gas or oil or any type of energy use off of anyone right now who is under this deep freeze and see their reaction and what will happen. i gurantee they won't care not one bit about the environment to get it back. lastly, most of those who do the protests about oil and cola use are just kids, and they're thinking like they should, i like that part, but it is not until they have to pay for their own house, car, oil, food, children etc before they understand theimportance of those energies, they'll change their mind when they don't have enough energy to support their way of life, which goes back to the question, are they willing to live simple, without the internet and phones and rubbers and chemicals and all that stuff. you should know that they'll not go without it, it's that simple. it is a psychological point that we all get stuck on.

oh, to clarify what a crazy person like me would be is, i am a shaman, and that in short just means to be a psychologist :) which is a form of doctor, some are medicine, some are psychiatrists etc.
no, i didn't have anything to drink this morning :) forgive my errors, my keyboard needs replacing
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Seriously Unserious
Master Superior
Posts: 1418
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 11:53 am
Location: Wandering around aimlessly in Lynchgate Woods
Contact:

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Chaos-Shaman wrote:i do not see this being evil, quite the contrary. it is quite possible we're suppose to die off in this way
I refuse to accept that. If we allow ourselves believe we are supposed to die off, we will inevitably and invariably to things to make that happen. If we don't accept that notion, we will continuously look for solutions and most likely find them.

I my experience, what we, and indeed all life is meant to do, is survive, and conquer the physical universe. By conquer the physical universe, I don't mean by waging war on everything else in it, I mean by surviving it, understanding it, and learning how to controlling it.
Chaos-Shaman wrote:if you were to ask them to stop what they're doing and live basic
Maybe some environmentalists who are radical in the extreme think that is the answer, but could you imagine 7 billion humans all trying to be hunter-gatherers? We'd hunt and gather food souses into extinction in a hurry, even going back to the most basic tools possible. No, going back in time is not the answer, and it never was. That's the past, and it's good for experience and learning, but it's not meant to be lived in or stuck in.

The answer is to research new ways, discover new technologies and solve the problems of pollution, human activities that are affecting our climate and any other problems we're faced with. The answer is to learn how to do what we're doing without polluting and poisoning. It is possible, if we are willing to put in the effort to do it, and support those that are willing to put in the effort and make the necessary discoveries.

There is no such thing as an unsolvable problem, only people unwilling to solve problems.
Chaos-Shaman wrote:if anyone here thinks in 200 years we won't be still burning what we have i suggest to them to have a closer look how that could even be possible with todays population just coming online to what we've had for 100 years,
I can tell you right now, we certainly won't be burning very much in 200 years, because of the simple reason that at current burn rates, we won't have much left to burn by then. Either we will have been forced backwards in technology as all our fossil fuel technology becomes useless, we will have poisoned ourselves, or we will have learned how to do live a technologically advanced life without polluting. Of those 3 major possibilities, I prefer the 3rd one. The 1st one means getting thrown backwards in development, the 2nd one means non survival (death) but the 3rd one means continuing to make our lives better, and finding newer and better ways of doing things.

200 years from now, I have no doubt at all that we'll look back on all our fossil fuel technology and wondering how we could possibly have survived all the harmful consequences of it. We'll be doing that while living with technologies straight of science fiction stories, and with technologies no-one ever even conceived of today.
Chaos-Shaman wrote: this shows how dirty money is, this is what is happening to the carbon tax credits, but there is way more sinister things going on about this that the average joe doesn't know about or even consider.
There are very sinister things going on, I've been politically active since the early 1990's and have been studying many of these sinister things. What I leaned then has only scratched the surface of it. I've only recently begun to learn what all these sinister activities are really about and who's really, ultimately behind it. It all traces back to about a dozen or so very powerful and very suppressive families. I already know who a few of them are right now, but that's a whole other topic of discussion.
Chaos-Shaman wrote:are they willing to live simple, without the internet and phones and rubbers and chemicals and all that stuff.
.
I am not willing to give up advanced technology. For me that's simply giving up and going backwards, to where we've already been before. What I am willing to do, is support and contribute in any and all ways that I can to develop way of using all this technology that is not harmful to our planet, the environment ourselves and fellow organisms.

Our current technology poisons and pollutes, and that's a problem, most definitely and undeniably. The solution is to develop new technology that neither poisons nor pollutes. To find new technologies that are clean and renewable.

We most definitely do not have to go back to being cave men to stop polluting. That is no answer, and if we do that, we will have learned nothing, and will be doomed to eventually repeat the same mistakes we're making up to now, and we'll just end up living the same lives over and over. Would anyone like to live a life like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day? Living the exact same day over and over again? Nope, that's not for me, so let's focus, not on going back to where we've already been, but on how to get to the next step in this never-ending journey called life without poisoning ourselves and everything around us. We can do it if we are willing.
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

I refuse to accept that. If we allow ourselves believe we are supposed to die off, we will inevitably and invariably to things to make that happen. If we don't accept that notion, we will continuously look for solutions and most likely find them.
can you accept the fact that we will eventually, that everything has its time.
I my experience, what we, and indeed all life is meant to do, is survive, and conquer the physical universe. By conquer the physical universe, I don't mean by waging war on everything else in it, I mean by surviving it, understanding it, and learning how to controlling it.
there are some things we just can't control, Chaos has made sure of that, random chance can't be controlled.
Maybe some environmentalists who are radical in the extreme think that is the answer, but could you imagine 7 billion humans all trying to be hunter-gatherers? We'd hunt and gather food souses into extinction in a hurry, even going back to the most basic tools possible. No, going back in time is not the answer, and it never was. That's the past, and it's good for experience and learning, but it's not meant to be lived in or stuck in.
you're making my point, we are what we are, we will continue using up resources like any other animal will, it's natural. i don't feel guilty that i take a schit and flush the toilet although one can think it is bad, but the facts are the facts, we have to consume and schit, that's just the way it is. when i make my mash for ethanol, the yeast eats all the sugar until it's gone and then it dies, leaving me with the goodies with water and poop. man is no different. we can't hold ourselves responsible on things we can't control, money is not going to fix this. this is about self preservation. some of the worst things ever come from things that hang around to long, like certain diseases as an example, yet the disease is doing the wold a favour by controlling population, a natural process. when we think we can make it better is where we get into trouble, it only makes more population and strengthens the disease mutations. so it's a catch 22. hehehe, i don't want to catch a 22 of anything whatever that may be :)
The answer is to research new ways, discover new technologies and solve the problems of pollution, human activities that are affecting our climate and any other problems we're faced with. The answer is to learn how to do what we're doing without polluting and poisoning. It is possible, if we are willing to put in the effort to do it, and support those that are willing to put in the effort and make the necessary discoveries.
wishful thinking if in paradise, but it is not practical, life needs to die in order to create, so i accept death, if man dies off i'm not worried about it, it is the way nature works. if we lived in a perfect world we'd not exist, hint, the perfect world occurs when man dies, nothing left to worry about then. we would have completed the natural cycle. man thinks it knows everything and is scared schitless when death makes it move on self preservation. don't fight it, embrace it. the world will be here when we're gone, maybe even a new species of intelligence will be after us, so the planet doesn't need out help, we need to accept our death, this time will come, we can't stop it, and throwing money at it won't help either. it's a frame of mind that needs to be taken on. if we all wanted a little less, that would be a good start, but if there is no want then there is no manufacturing then no jobs etc, and then we'd be back in the stone age.
or we will have learned how to do live a technologically advanced life without polluting.
i'm afraid that is impossible, and is not practical. there is no clean way to create plastics, rubbers, steel, computer components, there is none. every form of energy that can be used requires a waste product, either in burning it or producing the gismos to aquire it. that's what man does, flushes the toilet and you can't stop that, impossible.
I can tell you right now, we certainly won't be burning very much in 200 years, because of the simple reason that at current burn rates,
oh i don't agree, we have enough coal to burn for a very long long time, we have not even found all the oil and gas, not even close to that. our estimates of energy are growing all the time, there is a lot to be found yet. in nature, where there is a bounty of one thing due to good season or some other natural process, organisms will take advantage of it and develope a way to harness the bounty, that is how nature works. we don't need to worry about pop control because nature will do that for us, no need to worry, history shows that is quite normal. how about if i put it this way, all those smart scientists that are trying to prolong our life are doing a bad thing, they are making our pop grow bigger faster, it contradicts those scientists who say we're getting over populated and need to conserve our energies. (i do not like people who often say that we need to prevent children from being born), this is not natural, this is a selfish point of view from the gift we were given in the first place, to create life, not thwart it. we control too much, we already kill enough as it is to do this controlling idea. man can't handle itself let alone other organisms. we play God too much.
I am not willing to give up advanced technology.
now that is realistic, and everyone would agree on that. technology comes with a price, there is no escaping that truth. you're going to use platsics and chemicals etc for as long as they are available. this is an admittance to the facts. that's what we do, there is no tech that is polltion free, NONE. money won't stop us from flushing the toilet now will it.

alright, now let me build this wallset will ya :)
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Seriously Unserious
Master Superior
Posts: 1418
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 11:53 am
Location: Wandering around aimlessly in Lynchgate Woods
Contact:

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Chaos-Shaman wrote: [quote="Seriously Unserious] I am not willing to give up advanced technology.
now that is realistic, and everyone would agree on that. technology comes with a price, there is no escaping that truth. you're going to use platsics and chemicals etc for as long as they are available. this is an admittance to the facts. that's what we do, there is no tech that is polltion free, NONE. money won't stop us from flushing the toilet now will it.

alright, now let me build this wallset will ya :)[/quote][/quote]
That's just taking my comment out of context.

As for the rest of the points, I'd say by now it's clear that we both see reality on this subject very differently, so we may as well leave it at that.
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

oh, that's cool SU, sometimes i can say a lot of nothing :) but i really enjoy reading your posted info... everything you say i take into account, and to hear it from somebody who can put it all together is awesome :D
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-0 ... cmpid=yhoo

now this is the kind of thing that needs to stop, and it is this kind of action that will work, not handing out carbon tax credits, but using their frigging skulls instead of celebrating when they KNOW they have bad air conditions, but as you notice the people didn't care. as far as i am concerned all fireworks should be banned. when we see that then we're on the right track of how to tackle air pollution. a GW alarmist who lights fireworks is a hypocrite, and i don't want excuses on why they light them either. simple things like this are more important than a car that burns cleaner fuel, because all that does is encourages people to buy more cars, and there is a lot of pollution going into making them.
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

ahh, finally they will have to show how they get their results, forget computer models, they no jack schit. they have been hiding how they get their results and slowly conditioning everyones minds to a point where they will not look at the evidence, that was their plan all along.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/6/538748 ... eform-bill

@ Seriously Unserious, please scroll down and have a look at the charts for the past 15 years of climate data. those charts are accurate and it shows that the mean temps for the last 15 years have not budged. i want a clean and safe environment, but no way should these secret sciences be getting away with what they're doing, i want an educated public, not conditioned with feelings of fear. so many new scientists rely on grant money for a living now, this makes it very hard to get off the environmetal drug addiction, so many scientists and not enough work, they're not going to deny GW, it'd be detrimental to their livelyhood. i believe in a few years we'll start to see the truth come out. the earth is changing and so is the climate in places. it would be unscientific not to share the way they evaluate their info. some scientists believe climate change happens in just decades, not millions of years, so we'll have to reformulate as to why this is. i think it is all magnetism, it effects everything. and the earth and sun have been really messing about with it and we've only been able to learn about that in the last decade or so. we need some time to properly understand these workings.
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Seriously Unserious
Master Superior
Posts: 1418
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 11:53 am
Location: Wandering around aimlessly in Lynchgate Woods
Contact:

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Seriously Unserious »

I'm definitely all for open and honest disclosure of data. I like to be able to analyze data for myself, rather then rely on an authority to tell me what to believe based on hidden data I have no access to.
have a look at the charts for the past 15 years of climate data. those charts are accurate and it shows that the mean temps for the last 15 years have not budged.
Yeah, I took a look at those charts. The pattern I'm seeing for the temperature chart is temperatures fluctuating around a stable middle for 5-15 years, followed by a sharp raise, followed by more temperatures fluctuating around a new stable middle again, followed by another raise, and so on. If that trend continues we'd be due for another temperature "jump" soon. It may not happen this year if last year's volcanic activity's contributing to a volcanic cool-down right now. Of course, this longer stable period could also be the beginning of a new pattern too, but ATM it's too early to say that's what's happening. Based on the data I have, I'd say we're due for the next temperature "jump" sometime in the next 5 years. From the charts, these "jumps" seem to occur over a 2 to 5 year period of consistently raising temperatures at the end of which the temperatures settle out at a new higher stable average for about a decade.

Regardless of whether or not our production of greenhouse gasses is affecting the weather now, it is inevitable that if we keep producing them at a faster rate then nature can remove them, the temperatures will go up as a result of human activity. That's simply the laws of physics there, and they are unavoidable.
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

ok, but it is a hard sell right now, i mean even you have to have noticed your overnight temps are extremely cold, -7 for a few nights with daytime highs right at sea level of less than 0. i am willing to wait 5 more years before passing judgement, right now is not the time to lay claim to anything especially when dealing with nature. nature is unavoidable, it will conquer and our presence here will not matter one bit.
i don't know why everyone is so worried, i am still trying to get to the bottom of their worry, what is it they are afraid of. it's in my job description ;)
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Seriously Unserious
Master Superior
Posts: 1418
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 11:53 am
Location: Wandering around aimlessly in Lynchgate Woods
Contact:

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Chaos-Shaman wrote:i am still trying to get to the bottom of their worry, what is it they are afraid of.
I'd say that fear comes from a condition many people are in. I know I've been in that condition of pretty much permanent fear in the past, and I hated being like that. Now though, I'm definitely in a much better state of mind and it's getting better and better every day. The truth is, people who are in that state of fear will always find something to blame that fear on. The real solution is to use effective techniques to get to the root causes of that fear and handle it, then it goes away. My experience is that such "permanent" emotions a person is feeling follow a predictable pattern of transition form one to another.

Yeah, it's been very cold for the west coast for the past week. It's also been ridiculously dry for a rain forest here too. We're way below the average precipitation for the past year.
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

fear is the one thing we must control and respect, never let others use it against ourselves, famous, the only thing we need to fear is fear itself, this is true.

yes it's been dry, but get ready for the snow bud :):):):) i sent some your way :):):):) enjoy.

our forecast here does show no warm up above -1 into March, it's staying cold! -10 highs, -20 lows, average is -1, yeah like this winter it will be 6 degrees below average at least, we had a January thaw that lasted 3 days and only one was +5, the other two were around +1, so the mean is going to be a cold one, might even break the 30 year record. they only use 30 year records which is one of the reasons we can't count on their logic. 30 years is in no means a way to check climate, the cycles can last 10 to 50 years, 30 years is not going to cut it for accuracy, 0 accuracy. let's wait 5 years at least to see what happens. as i was saying to you earlier, in the last 15 or so years the earth has not budged much in temps, this is a fact, i didn't make it up, the environmentalists know it... as my dad use to say, You'll See, that is written on his headstone. so we'll see what happens, i can assure you the Arctic is not going to melt by then, if anything it will gain more ice. some scientists believe we are in a cool down phase now, so let's see if they're right by waiting a little bit. i have no fear to play apon and no money to hand to those leeches at the environment agencies.
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Seriously Unserious
Master Superior
Posts: 1418
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 11:53 am
Location: Wandering around aimlessly in Lynchgate Woods
Contact:

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Still, climate change is by no means the only reason to stop polluting. Pollution is still a poison and we're better off finding clean ways of doing what we do. We're also better off not waiting until we cause a global warmup and pass any tipping points where any human caused global warmups enter any positive feedback loops. We definitely don't want any human caused, self-intensifying warmups to happen, and the best way to deal with that is to not do the things we know full well will eventually (in not already) causes of that.

In other words, now is the time to start looking for clean ways to live, not when we have no drinking water, can't breathe the air due to it being too poisonous and deadly, or we are causing temperatures to raise rapidly in an unnatural way. Now is the time while we're not facing any do-or-die scenarios.

I agree with you on the whole point of fear-mongering. That is entirely unproductive and all it does is drive people into apathy about a problem, when what is really needed is to motivate people into an enthusiasm about solving a problem. Motivation and encouragement produces results (which can be either good or bad, depending on what people are being motivated and encouraged to do), fear-mongering can only produce bad results. Drive people into fear and even the most courageous becomes a coward. Drive people into a state of apathy and even the most able will lose the ability to get anything done.
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

yes, the pollution is unwanted. it will never stop though. i can't even get people to quit smoking (which i did myself and toughed it out long enough for my spouse to quit, took years), even though we tell them it kills them and those around them, makes them poor and still they'll puff away then blow it in our faces and still say, we better stop GW. there is no way we'll ever get rid of that kind of ignorance, just is not going to happen.

when you say human caused, are you suggesting we are not natural? what we do is not natural?

now is the time to stop building cars, now is the time to get serious about it. stop the fun pollution like vacations for example. if people were serious enough they'd stop taking flights for selfish purposes only right, i mean that really does make sense. we shouldn't be ATVing in our forests, we shouldn't be snowmobiling through it for fun, why should we pay for others selfish actions? and there is no way we'll ever be able to stop flushing the toilet, that's impossible. money is not going to take away ignorance or selfishness.

man is naturally ignorant, is loaded with spirit which makes a bit different, spirit is natural to man, it is found in all things but man posses it the most. man posses spirits that other animals don't usually use, take hate for example, or love, these are things man has, same with ignorance. they are natural to us. we are naturally destroying and creating, there is no unnatural. man is natural, what we do is natural, i do not see anything other than that. everyone wants to live forever, no surprises there, but do you think all the other animals want to live forever or even think of there actions that effects everything else around it. what i am trying to say is man is natural, what man does is natural, like fires. it is all about fire isn't it ;) if we never had it we would probably be extinct.

fear is where it is at, fear controls people, goats them into situations like guilt which produces money handouts, people go to church, drop money in the basket in hopes they'll get rid of their guilt and belong, but really it is just a minister taking their money which they sometimes use for good but mostly to themselves or to build a bigger church somewhere else.

my spouse bought me a book for my birthday, a very well written book called Climatism, this book is rather hefty with 460 pages, much bigger than the rest of the climate books i've read. plenty of climate scientists and meteorologists through the book. these guys are professionals and they don't believe what we're being led to believe. right now how they base the publics knowledge is in the dark, they won't even put out how they get their results and predictions. this will be the 4th book i have read on climate. i thought the one written by the head fellow who runs the satellites data to be informative. i will post info from the book as i read it. i am doing my research, and say more than most people will do.

i concentrate on the psychological side, why so much fear, and how others react to those predictions of doom. 90% of those i talk to who believe in man as the sole reason for climate change know squat about climate, the earth or science in general. that scares me that it is these people i have to deal with in all situations. it turns out people like to be told what to do and not think for themselves. certainly not my way.

examples of fear, well that is easy. when i first constructed my own still, produced my own ethanol, nobody would drink it, they were all in fear. they figure you have to go to the store and buy it and that it's safe, hahahaha, couldn't be further from the truth. they were conditioned to think that there has to be some special method to make our own drink and any other way will turn a person blind. it cost 85% less money to make your own, it's cleaner too. fear and ignorance plays a big role here.
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

this one is a classic, please read the comments too

http://news.yahoo.com/stronger-pacific- ... 25166.html
keep your gor coin handy
User avatar
Chaos-Shaman
High Lord
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm
Location: The Gates of Hell

Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

"...the Arctic ice cap is stuck in a vicious feedback loop betwixt its warming environment and melting ice, researchers reported Feb. 4 in the 'journal Geophysical Research Letters'."
Why?

“Giant plumes of methane bubbling to surface of Arctic Ocean”
Eric Pfeiffer, Yahoo! News December 14, 2011 "The Sideshow"

Russian scientists have discovered HUNDREDS OF PLUMES OF METHANE GAS,
SOME 1000 METERS IN DIAMETER, BUBBLING TO THE SURFACE OF THE ARCTIC OCEAN.
Scientists are concerned that as the Arctic Shelf recedes,
the unprecedented levels of gas released could greatly accelerate global climate change.

"Earlier we found torch-like structures like this but they were only tens of meters in diameter," he said.
"This is the first time that we've found continuous, powerful and impressive seeping structures,
more than 1,000 metres in diameter.
It's amazing."

Semiletov said that while his research team has discovered more than 100 plumes,
THEY ESTIMATE THERE TO BE "THOUSANDS" OVER THE WIDER AREA,
extending from the Russian mainland to the East Siberian Arctic Shelf.

"In a very small area, less than 10,000 square miles, we have counted more than 100 fountains, or torch-like structures, bubbling through the water column and injected directly into the atmosphere FROM THE SEABED," Semiletov said.
"We carried out checks at about 115 stationary points and discovered methane fields of a fantastic scale
— I think on a scale not seen before.
Some plumes were a kilometer or more wide and the emissions went directly into the atmosphere
— the concentration was a hundred times higher than normal."
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

The above are 35 million year old FACTS,
reported as of two years ago.
Man did not make this NatGas,
nor the Methane Clathrates from which it arose,
nor the microbes which did.

Meanwhile,
NatGas replacing a few coal-fired ELECTRICAL plants in the US
had ALREADY reduced the Nation's TOTAL emissions
20% to 1992 levels as of the spring of 2012,
according to Obama's EIA report.
Even more telling
during that same period,
US population exploded by 25%,
and not one went without electricity.

Anyone still averse to fracking the Arctic
--To REDUCE these NATURAL emissions of true pollutants?--
has not understood the nature of LOCAL
(not-Global, the rise of which has plateaued, despite the Arctic's DOUBLED rate!)
Temperature CHANGE there
CAUSING ICE TO MELT AT AN ALARMING RATE:

NatGas is 87% CH4 (methane).
CH4 has 72X times the GWP (Global Warming Potential) of CO2 for the first 20 years!
For the next 80 years, it tapers to 25X the GWP (CarbonDioxide:1); but,
Cold Seeps from the time of Columbus still have
7.6 X the GWP of
the plant sustenance CH4 degrades into,
that is, the TOP two GH Gases:
CO2 and H2O.

Historically, CO2 rise LAGS GW
BY CENTURIES.
Are you beginning to see why, yet?

Unlike CO2, humans do not exhale CH4.
CH4 truly IS a pollutant,
since it is potentially dangerous
both as an asphyxiant,
(the reason canaries were kept in early coal mines)
an EXPLOSIVE compound and
also as a super-greenhouse gas.
Meanwhile Alarmists
chase their CH4’s tailings,
H2O & CO2, et al.

Cue the Alarmist toadies...

what exactly i have been saying all along.
keep your gor coin handy
Locked