Leveling and stats

[qwertymaster]

Hi,

Is there a way to set the amount of attribute points you receive at each level of mastery (to there maximum for example), instead of having a random assignment. Which currently means I have to keep reloading the game just before I leveled to get resonable stats (as it possible to get just a +1 on one stat).

If so could you tell me the app I needed to download and where to go within it (PC version). thankyou

If not does anyone have a chart of what is the maximum you can receive at each level of mastery and for each class anywhere (so I can set them in a save game editor after leveling - without actually cheating beyound what would normally be allowed). ta

[Trantor]

This is much worse in Wizardry 6 and 7, where you need to get specific stats in order to change classes. It can take forever to turn a fighter into a ninja in that game if you are unlucky or don't want to reload everytime the level-up goes wrong. In DM, I never paid that much attention to be honest.
As for your questions, I don't have clear answers, but I am pretty sure that any one stat can improve by 0, 1 or 2 points - more is not possible in one level-up. From my observations, here are stats that can improve by class:

Fighter:
Strength
Dexterity (sometimes)
Vitality (sometimes)

Ninja:
Strength (sometimes)
Dexterity

Priest:
Wisdom (sometimes)
Vitality
Anti-Fire (sometimes)
Anti-Magic (sometimes)

Wizard:
Wisdom
Anti-Fire (sometimes)
Anti-Magic (sometimes)

I have the impression that some stats are more likely to increase than others, like Strength being improved more often than Dexterity for a fighter (hence the "sometimes" in brackets). This is all pure speculation, though, someone with more insight to the game's mechanics will have to clear this up.

[beowuuf]

Doesn't some corner of the encyclopedia show this?

I think DM's stat advancement is ok. And really instead of altering per level you may as well just give yourself a boost from the word go and play onwards. You will already be breaking the satistical likelihood of anything you would get in the game. If it is more enjoyable to have slightly better stats, you should go for it from the off insted of tying yourself in knots to get stats that will still be higher than you could get except by exceptionally irregular play.

[Octopuss]

I never really understood how this works. At some point I could swear the game saves the first stats increase somewhere, refusing to give me more even if I restart and reload hundred times.

Btw. At least anti magic can raise by 3 points.

[andilist]

Hello everybody,

in the meantime my champions are "Master" in all four skills. They spent a few hours in the "rat room".

It seems to me that progressing to the next higher priest level takes least time whereas progressing to the next higher ninja level takes most time. What do you think?

Kind regards,

Andi

[Maven]

I never really understood how this works. At some point I could swear the game saves the first stats increase somewhere, refusing to give me more even if I restart and reload hundred times.

Btw. At least anti magic can raise by 3 points.

I've seen this in other games as well. I think it happens when the random seed is saved in the saved game file. If you want different stats, you have to do some other thing that uses the random generator before you level up. Cast a spell that has a chance of failing, or hit something with something that does random damage. That will advance the random seed and give you different stats when you level up.

[Duckman]

Trantor listed them. Actually those main stats listed advace either 1 or 2, always, and those with "(sometimes)", don't advace or only by 1 (except for antifire and antimagic reqarding to Octopus). At least in DSB.

[Maven]

So I downloaded the source code and looked through it a little bit. Simply amazing! My understanding of the source is very spotty... So far I haven't tracked down everything I'm interested in knowing. But this was one I did find. Here's what I gleaned:

By the way, you start out at level 1 in everything. Neophyte is level 2.

Fighter:
Strength - 1 or 2
Dexterity - 0 or 1
Vitality - 0 or 1 on odd levels
Anti Fire - 0 or 1 on even levels
Stamina increase is based on max stamina / 16
Health increase is based on new level * 3

Ninja:
Dexterity - 1 or 2
Strength - 0 or 1
Vitality - 0 or 1 on odd levels
Anti Fire - 0 or 1 on even levels
Stamina increase is based on max stamina / 21
Health increase is based on new level * 2

Priest:
Wisdom - 0 or 1
Vitality - 0 or 1
Anti Fire - 0 or 1 on even levels
Anti Magic - 0, 1, 2, or 3
Stamina increase is based on max stamina / 25
Health increase is based on new level * 1.5
Mana increase is based on new level

Wizard:
Wisdom - 1 or 2
Vitality - 0 or 1 on odd levels
Anti Fire - 0 or 1 on even levels
Anti Magic - 0, 1, 2, or 3
Stamina increase is based on max stamina / 32
Health increase is based on new level
Mana increase is based on new level * 1.5

There is a random component on all stat increases. The random component on stamina and health increases is basically 1 to half the base + 1, and is added to the base. The random component on Mana increase is 0 to 3, but is capped at level - 1.

The vitality increase for Priest is not a typo. There is an actual check in the code that limits the increases to odd levels for everything not a Priest.

I haven't verified everything on my version of DM, except the first four Wizard level ups. They seem to be right in line with the source code. I'll see what I can do about making a table.

[Maven]

Here's the table from neophyte to arch master. I haven't figured out how to put the stamina increases in a table that is not huge.

Code: Select all

Fighter     2     3     4     5     6     7     8
Max Health  6-9   9-13  12-18 15-22 18-27 21-31 24-36
Strength    1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2
Dexterity   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1
Vitality          0-1         0-1         0-1
Anti Fire   0-1         0-1         0-1         0-1

Fighter     9     10    11    12    13    14    15    16
Max Health  27-40 30-45 33-49 36-54 39-58 42-63 45-67 48-72
Strength    1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2
Dexterity   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1
Vitality    0-1         0-1         0-1         0-1
Anti Fire         0-1         0-1         0-1         0-1


Ninja       2     3     4     5     6     7     8
Max Health  4-6   6-9   8-12  10-15 12-18 14-21 16-24
Strength    0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1
Dexterity   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2
Vitality          0-1         0-1         0-1
Anti Fire   0-1         0-1         0-1         0-1

Ninja       9     10    11    12    13    14    15    16
Max Health  18-27 20-30 22-33 24-36 26-39 28-42 30-45 32-48
Strength    0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1
Dexterity   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2
Vitality    0-1         0-1         0-1         0-1
Anti Fire         0-1         0-1         0-1         0-1


Priest      2     3     4     5     6     7     8
Max Health  3-4   5-7   6-9   8-12  9-13  11-16 12-18
Max Mana    2-3   3-5   4-7   5-8   6-9   7-10  8-11
Wisdom      0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1
Vitality    0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1
Anti Magic  0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3
Anti Fire   0-1         0-1         0-1         0-1

Priest      9     10    11    12    13    14    15    16
Max Health  14-21 15-22 17-25 18-27 20-30 21-31 23-34 24-36
Max Mana    9-12  10-13 11-14 12-15 13-16 14-17 15-18 16-19
Wisdom      0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1
Vitality    0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1   0-1
Anti Magic  0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3
Anti Fire         0-1         0-1         0-1         0-1


Wizard      2     3     4     5     6     7     8
Max Health  2-3   3-4   4-6   5-7   6-9   7-10  8-12
Max Mana    3-4   4-6   6-9   7-10  9-12  10-13 12-15
Wisdom      1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2
Vitality          0-1         0-1         0-1
Anti Magic  0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3
Anti Fire   0-1         0-1         0-1         0-1

Wizard      9     10    11    12    13    14    15    16
Max Health  9-13  10-15 11-16 12-18 13-19 14-21 15-22 16-24
Max Mana    13-16 15-18 16-19 18-21 19-22 21-24 22-25 24-27
Wisdom      1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2   1-2
Vitality    0-1         0-1         0-1         0-1	
Anti Magic  0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3   0-3
Anti Fire         0-1         0-1         0-1         0-1

The source code didn't seem to be quite in line with empirical observations. I did over 200 level-ups, and recorded them, to make sure, and it seems the upper bound was one off. I edited the table to reflect the actual data I'm seeing in my version of DM.

[MasterWuuf]

Hello everybody,

in the meantime my champions are "Master" in all four skills. They spent a few hours in the "rat room".

It seems to me that progressing to the next higher priest level takes least time whereas progressing to the next higher ninja level takes most time. What do you think?

Kind regards,

Andi

I read though this thread and didn't see any clear answer to this.
I've found the 'fighter' skill seems to take the longest in which to progress to the next level.
Anyone know for sure?

[beowuuf]

It probably takes longer because of the speed. Magic and ninja skills are all inherently 'fast' to build up (ninja attacks are swift, magic recharges and discharges quickly for sleeping and firing). With fighter skills you need to wait for weapon recharging...

Does this sound right?

[zoom]

wizard takes the longest, probably. note: You could use the waterelemental training spot on level 10 , use a vorpal blade. so could work even better than ninja.

not sure about the level 13 firepit..it respawns but it is much of a hazzle to train there, still could be worthwhile.
uuh. forgot that you can grasp the firestaff, sneak out of level 14 with it, without setting the trap, and train with that. dunno about experience gain then.
It only gives main wizard level skill, so your hidden skills for wizard would not be enhanced..

for ninja just punch with autofire, best would be screamer room (if you happen to have autofire, that is)

for fighter and priest just warcry with autofire(that is the easiest, really) again screamer room, damage is negligible. At some point you regenerate much more than they inflict damage.

again, hidden skills will be sometimes more, sometimes less trained, but it is negligible after a while anyway. Without autofire, it is a whole different matter.

[Wayfarer]

Great table, Maven! Quite an insightful finding! Any idea whether this applies to DMII as well or only to DM/CSB?

[aster]

Is everything here purely random? So getting the max in one level-up doesn't diminish the chances of maxing out the same stat in the subsequent level advancement?

[aster]

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that all numbers within a certain range do not have the same probability. So when say Anti-Magic can rise by 0-3 points, the probability of seeing +2 is NOT the same as the chances of getting +3.

[Maven]

The code I looked at didn't have any mechanism of connecting the stats. For example, it didn't take 4 points and then randomize where to put them. Rather, it conceptually flipped a coin on each stat and if it came up heads it picked the greater of the two values. Just because you got a great roll on the fire resistance doesn't mean you'll have less of a chance getting a good roll on the health.

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that all numbers within a certain range do not have the same probability. So when say Anti-Magic can rise by 0-3 points, the probability of seeing +2 is NOT the same as the chances of getting +3.

Are you sure about that? Because it looked like it was pretty much a straight random distribution.

I have not looked into the random number generator, and I guess it is possible it doesn't have an even distribution, but that wasn't my experience.

[aster]

Are you sure about that? Because it looked like it was pretty much a straight random distribution.

I have not looked into the random number generator, and I guess it is possible it doesn't have an even distribution, but that wasn't my experience.

I'm currently testing this out on getting the wizard neophyte level and the numbers don't seem random for anti-magic. It should be 0-3 on this skill, so a 25% chance of getting 3 points. I would say it's much less, maybe 2% based on dozens of tries that I did yesterday and today.

I just did a further 20 level-ups in a row and here are the numbers I got for anti-magic:
00000020000000021200

80% zeroes and 0% threes in those attempts.

I'm using the DM 3.4 version for PC (DOS) using the Boxer (DOSBox) app for Mac.

[Octopuss]

I wonder what's the deal with exactly the same numbers gained upon advancement everytime you do unless you perform some random actions and save again. Since I am a perfectionist I always save before I get a level up and then try to get lucky with random numbers generator in pretty much every game I play that works this way.

[beowuuf]

There is no such thing as a random number in the engine. It derives its 'randomness' from a seed that gets applied to every action of the player, , etc. CSBwin's playback I beleive works on this principle - it does not record your game, it instead replays the game with the same random seed and does the same actions at the same time, and therefore enjoys the same 'random' numbers at each step as you did when you played.

As a player it's almost impossible to reproduce your actions exactly (unless it is something this specific as levelling up again and again at the same point) so if you save, die, and replay, you won't usually experience the same luck even if you do broadly the same things again. You shift the events you need a random number for, and so it seems random.


I think?

[aster]

Could be, though I did my last experiment with the 20 attempts at a save point that was just one spell away from a level-up, so I repeated the same procedure each time.

I also see a certain correlation between certain numbers. So when I got AM up by 2 then I saw that health went up by a certain number each time.

Just a quick question about the experience boost that's gained from being deeper in the dungeon:

Spoiler

in what level do you first find the stairs that can take you down loads of levels (though naturally you cannot get out of the "staircase" because you need keys to unlock the entrance from the other side? I take it this would be a great time to go all the way down to train?

[beowuuf]

Not much of a spoiler - level 8 has the first entrance to the skeleton stairwell, though it then goes back up to level 7 (. Level 7 actually has a second set of stairs too, but you need to have all but finished the game to get to it.

There are no monsters available to fight using those stairs, so I'm not sure if the depth modifier balances the lack of monsters?

[elodman]

Greets Maestros,

How can a character without any manna learn to cast spells?
(Not a single spell formula can be issued to the barbarian dude.)

Or is it not a trouble if 1-2 dudes remain non-casters?

Thanx.

[beowuuf]

Some items grant mana (staves, wands, the moonstone, vorpal blades) so those characters can get experience

[Seriously Unserious]

Greets Maestros,

How can a character without any manna learn to cast spells?
(Not a single spell formula can be issued to the barbarian dude.)

Or is it not a trouble if 1-2 dudes remain non-casters?

Thanx.

also, Ee (mana) potions can allow a character to temporarily exceed their max mana, so if you give Halk a mana potion he should have more then 0 mana, but you had better use it quickly because it will quickly deteriorate back down to it's max of 0. At least that was possible in the Amiga version of DM/CSB. Haven't tried this in other versions such as RTC.

[terkio]

How can a character without any manna learn to cast spells?

War cry is a priest skill. Practice in war cries can give a priest level and a start of manna
I am not sure about this trick, wether I was told or used it.

[beowuuf]

You need to be careful of the engine version for warcry to work, i think...

[Phoenix]

I've used moonstones and staves/wands to give mana to Halk. Begin with casting stamina potions as this requires the least amount of mana. After that procede to light spells and finally fireball. Strangely enough, if you walk into a wall just before leveling up, you get higher stats. I use the table listed above to maximize my stats. You can usually get the maximum increases for str,wis,dex,vit, and mana at the expense of hitpoints and stamina.
You get more experience if you are fighting a monster or just fought a monster, but you still get experience for all weapon/hand actions and spellcasting. I've gone up a fighter level after being hit by a door. Save often and reload if you don't get the stat increases you want (it's possible to go up a level and get no stat increases at all!).

[Seriously Unserious]

How can a character without any manna learn to cast spells?

War cry is a priest skill. Practice in war cries can give a priest level and a start of manna
I am not sure about this trick, wether I was told or used it.

Yes, warcry can work, depending on your engine version. Even better is when you've got the horn of fear, blow that and you will gain priest experience for sure. It can even help get some monsters off your back if you are getting overwhelmed by too big a horde. In the custom dungeon, Down, I had to use fear in many places because I would be attacked by way too many monsters to survive them all if I didn't scare some of them away, and there are some areas like this in DM, so using fear can be a useful tool to get in the habit of using anyways, but it helps to gain priest levels while doing so.