Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

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luke41
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Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by luke41 »

Hi,

Similary to my tries before, I am now starting a DM- (und hopefully CSB-) walkthru with only one champion (reincarnated). BUT - a champion with extreme low characteristics, either physical or magical. Furthermore, as usual, I use to produce only the spells my champion read (und thus learned) on the way, so no FUL IR before 6th level etc.

My first trial was with TIGGY - the weakest champion physically, when you combine "Strength" and "Stamina". The beginning was funny: I met the first mummy, opened the door, the mummy said "Whoaaa!" - and I was immediately DEAD!... It was a little bad luck that the mummy was quicker than me trying the "close-door-trick"...
So already here I saw that even more than in my former "one-normal-champion-trial" (with Gothmog), I have in many cases to try new, different tactics.
But later it was easy - Tiggy got stronger and stronger, ate really not much, so in some places I had time to train her (him?) on spells I already discovered. Thus, an the end of level 2 (counting: level 0 is the gallery) I could spell all spells (learned so far) with MON-power! Two times I had to go a long way back: both times I forgot the mirror (left it, thinking I wont need it anymore)! First to put it into the niche at the start of level 5, and then at level 10 to open the way to the ruby key. But nevermind, in few hours the dragon was dead and Chaos as well. This time quite quick, maybe to extensive (and CHAOTICAL - that is s straregy agaist him) use of FLUXCAGE-spell.

After that yesterday I started another try: with a champion who has 0-mana (zero), Halk. No idea, how it will work in later levels. Already in level 1 I have always to carry some torches - a simple FUL-spell is impossible. Will Halk ever learn any spell, or will he never gain any mana-power? Maybe when I will find some special objects (Moonstar, Gem of Ages etc) some spell will be possible? When I find some sticks - will it be possible to "Calm", "Distract", "Brandish", "Heal", "Dispell"? Is it possible to finish Dungeon Master without ever using spells?... We will see. Today I have level 2 in my plans, and I already know that the lack of ZO-spell will make it impossible to go thru one of the doors...
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Saumun »

You'd need to cast Zokathra to activate the Firestaff. I have done a solo run with Halk (and then took him into CSB), and a Tiggy run (as quite a few others have). Just down to different tactics at the start.

You could war cry your way to neophyte priest level, and then when you get a flask on the first level, cast vi potions to get to novice (you'll probably only get around four mana, so cast lo and sleep for a few seconds until your mana goes up and cast vi..... I know this is boring and time consuming, but it shouldn't take too long). Then you'll have enough mana to cast lo light spells to get the first couple of wizard levels, and away you go.

Alternatively, you can wait until you get the Teowand on the worm level which gives you +6 mana, giving you enough to cast lo light spells (you'd have to skip 'The Vault' on level 2 where you need the zo spell).
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Jan »

Good, congratulations! :D

My only problem with a solo run with a very weak character is the carrying capacity (of course it's more serious in CSB than in DM). Oh, and stamina. I tend to run around very fast (knowing the dungeon very well) so I have to cast stamina potions constantly to keep me from getting into "yellow / red area".

You don't need a mirror to get the ruby key (at the "Enlarge my view"). In theory, you should use the Magnifier there (from the end of the Scorpion level) but in practice, for whatever reason and in all the versions of DM I know, the "eye" works with any item. :idea:

Yup, I also always use the "chaotic" tactics against Chaos. I never try to really think of what I'm doing, I just run around him casting the cages randomly in all directions and then try to fuse him from time to time and sooner or later I succeed (or die :wink: ).

Saumun covered the problem of low mana nicely. I have to confess that I regularly use the "war cry trick" on the first few Screamers to gain two or three priest levels - I always feel a bit guilty as if cheating though. :oops: So maybe in order to make the game really hard it's better if you avoid doing this trick altogether.

Good luck there and keep us informed on your progress! :)
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by luke41 »

(As I feared) I could not stand making 2 levels today - the 2nd and the 3rd (with magenta worms). So maybe it is good I just now learn about the "War cry"-trick. I have already the Teo wand...
But so far it was a little tricky to get here - especially with section with worms, ghost and the speedy wasp on level 3. I was lucky the worms came first, so I killed them as usual, hit by hit, they followed me to the beginning of level 3.
Then there was only the ghost and the wasp. Somehow I managed to escape them, and quickly get in the section where a teleporter closes them from me.. Unfortunaltely, I forgot the gold key from one of the worms, so I had to take the longer way (no shortcut).
In all this I had one seriuos problem: beeing hurt physically. With being poisoned (at least by worms) it takes time, but you can recover. But I could not recover from wasp bites - they seem to be very unhealthy!... And since I have (so far) no way to mix potions, there was another problem: beeing hit physically. So far even if I waited I could not recover - so only "save and restore" helped me here.
But thanks to Saumuns tips now I will have time and food to train priest skills - I am between level 3 and 4 ("treasure store"), one of the best places of infinite food (screamers farm on level 3) and water.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Ameena »

There are other items that give you a small amount of mana when equipped - off the top of my head I think you can get mana off the staff, wand, teowand, vorpal blade, moonstone, and a few others I've probably forgotten. The ungemmed Firestaff gives you an extra Wizard level and the gemmed version gives two. My usual party consists of a reincarnated Hissssa and Wuuf (renamed as Ameena and Fippy). At the start, the former only has enough mana to cast a Lo rune. When I've gone down the stairs from the HoC I refuse to move from that first square until I've got the light level to maximum brightness with no help from Fippy. This consists of casting Lo, going to sleep, casting Ful, then casting the spell and sleeping again before repeating. With completely mana-less characters like Halk and Stamm, who can't do this from the start, you'll need to just equip one of the mana-granting items while you practice, at least until you've gained either a Wizard or Priest level which should give you enough mana to cast something without needing them equipped any more. The cheapest spell to cast, mana-wise, is Lo Ya (stamina potion). There are plenty of flasks lying about the place so getting hold of one from pretty early on shouldn't be too difficult - I seem to recall the earliset you can get one is on Level Two in a short dead-end alcove off a large room containing a bunch of Mummies.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Jan »

Oh, I forgot the Ghost and the Wasp. Yeah, well, they might be a problem then. :mrgreen:

Also, you're right that the critical injuries (a white bandage on a body part) don't "wear off", they're "permanent" - they must be healed with a potion, so, yeah, that's another problem. :roll:

On the worm level, the gold key is not carried by a worm but is in one of the "drains" in the wall (behind that portcullis that falls on your head). Also, you may be able to save one extra gold key from the first level (with mummies and screamers) - there's a wooden door that you can either unlock with a gold key or you can break it if you're strong enough / have an appropriate weapon.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Saumun »

The Staff of Manar in the northeast corner of level 7 gives you +10 mana, but it's a long time to wait. Better to stay where you are for a while, and get some priest and wizard levels at the screamer room.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by luke41 »

Thanks you all.
So I trained a lot with Halk - and gained 67 points in mana already! Great! - I can walk without the torch - if there was any - (which was occupying my second hand too!...), can heal myself and enjoy a detox-cure!... And have a new weapon: the poison cloud.
Acutally "war cry" is not an problematic trick: With teowand you can gain spell-experience as well as Ameena mentioned. In my case I tried both ways (saving first...), and it seems that with teowand it was quicker to achieve the first priest- and then wizard level, and from them I trained without the teowand.
Note: when training, I discovered for the first time, that the ZO spell can be used not only to open closed door, but to close (distant) opened doors! So it can be maybe used when running away...
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Saumun »

Indeed. Gaining the first priest level with war cry will only give you around 4 mana (though you could take the time to get to novice and get a little more), whereas Teowand gives you 6, enabling you to cast lo level light spells without sleeping in between runes.
The reason i go for war cry is that i cannot be bothered waiting to get to the worm level for mana. That way, i'm usually at journeyman level for wizard and priest before i reach the worm level.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by terkio »

Closing doors with the zo spell comes handy about wizard eyes attacks from behind door.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by luke41 »

Hi,

Today I finished DM with Halk. Acutally, after learning the first spells (end of Level 3, thru help of Teowand), and then training them every time I had time, food and water, it wasnot too hard. Only funny thing was, that at the end of level 11 (with water elementals) in the "coin-machines"-room I realized, that I have only two coins!... It did not change my future game, but I just ask myself: all times before I had 4 or 6 copper coins, and now only two?...
Anyway, I realized that because of some additional training needed if you are a "extreme" champion (Tiggy or Halk), your statistics grows: you have to fight and spell more than usual. Here the comparison to my DM-run witg Gothmog in past, who is both "medium" champion (can cast spells and fight from the begin on on some medi-level):

GOTHMOG:
Strength: 371
Stamina: 134
Mana: 166
Master Fighter, Adept Ninja, UM-Priest, EE-Wizard

TIGGY:
340 (!)
110
196
Expert Fighter, Adept Ninja, ON-Priest, EE-Wizard

Halk:
417
194
170 (!)
Master Fighter, Adept Ninja, ON-Priest, EE-Wizard

So you can see, I seem not to like the ninja-tactics, and seem to be more wizard than priest.

Today my son suggested I should try some DM-challenges:
- "No Door champion": Finish without the "falling door trick"
- "Spelling champion": Finish without weapon-fighting (falling door allowed though), only spells
- "Weapon champion": Finish only with weapon fighting (incl. ninja), spell only ZO KATH RA at the end.
- "Peacenik Champion": Finish with as few killings as possible.

Well, we should not exaggerate, like: "finish DM with closed eyes, after bottle of whisky, without saving"... :-)
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Jan »

Good, gooood! :P

There are three copper coins in a chest on the "Choose your door choose your fate" level in the "Cast your influence cast your might" section (where you need to cast a ZO spell to open the door) - you've probably missed these.

Go for the pacifist champion now! :) Yeah, and the bottle of whiskey sounds good too. :wink:
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by PaulH »

I found Stamm to be the best starting character.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

My best character was Chani, learned quick.
keep your gor coin handy
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by PaulH »

Chani I like also. Great Wisdom, but I tend t prefer cold steel ;-)
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Jan
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Jan »

Hey, watch it, Chani is my favourite character! :)

BTW, it's very nice to see you around again, Paul! :D
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Saumun »

If we're talking a solo run with one of Luke's 'extreme' champions (ie.. no mana or low strength, etc) i usually go for Halk for the extra strength and health over Stamm at the start (although i think Stamm levelled up better last time i tried).

Otherwise, i like Hissssa.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

At first it was the chicken tactics of magic to do battle which kept the party away from direct contact, but then after getting better with the dancing about, war cry and a good sword or that axe was much more effective, don't even need magic unless it's a denizen that only ew can kill, or a door that can't be opened unless the zo spell was used.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by PaulH »

Thank you Jan! I still hang around - a few unfinished projects that, in time, will be done... ;-)

As for Stamm, he was my choice in the speed run record (20mins real time, 31:45 game time inc accelerated sleep). Why did he work so well? His axe was a great start. Having Chop from the off allowed some quick killing and levelling. But his stamina was the greatest asset - the figure was immaterial - it was the fact it dropped so much more slowly than others, for reasons we don't still understand. Hissssa, Halk, Sonja (and she was better on paper) could not match real world game paly.

Reincarnated, he quickly levelled up, with just enough magic for basic healing and the Zo Kath Ra.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Ian Clark »

Chani was always my favourite for solo runs.

If you really want a challenge, use an editor to decrease the champion's stats to 1 (see Conflux II/III Maleficent Guild)
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Saumun »

Now that IS a challenge.... Might try that.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Ian Clark »

http://dmwiki.atomas.com/wiki/Conflux/G ... ient_Guild

I've never tried DM (or CSB) with characters like those, it would be interesting and mega hard (as Conflux was)
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Saumun »

Hmmm... Tried it with DM (in DSB), but weird stuff was happening. Used Hissssa with every stat down to 1 (including health, stamina, and mana).
Had to be very careful not to bump into walls. Every step took stamina to zero, and carrying stuff was obviously a problem.

Main problem though was after gaining two fighter and ninja levels (which took an eternity), you do not gain stamina (though you do gain health). It just stays at 1.... Nightmare!
Also, i couldn't gain a priest level at all with war cry. On top of this... after clicking 'lo' which took my single point of mana, it never came back despite having to sleep all the time.

And still i persevered (swinging and running... if you could call it running), until i found i couldn't hack through the door near the end of level 1. Aah well!
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Ian Clark »

The Maleficent Guild actually have a 1 for everything apart from stamina which is 25, I have just checked. So it might help if you change it. Conflux was made for CSBWin so it might be worth giving it a go with that instead
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Saumun »

Tried it (still in DSB) and it worked. Started with all stats at 1, except stamina at 25 (again with Hissssa). Stamina still increases very, very slowly (only by 1 at a time for the first three levels gained). I have just reached the magenta worms, and it's starting to get a little easier since i've gained a few levels... but my strength is only 5 at the moment, so just wearing clothes and carrying a sword, flask, and a few items of food puts me in the yellow (and even red if i move too much, too quickly)
Level 1 was particularly hard going... getting killed by a single screamer attack, being constantly on the edge of starvation while trying to get levels, and wondering around in darkness.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Sophia »

Admittedly, it's quite possible that DSB is doing something strange with stats that low, because it was never intended or tested for that style of play. :)
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Saumun »

When i restarted it with the stamina set at 25 as Ian suggested, everything seemed to behave normally (health, mana, and all other stats were left at 1).
The only noticeable difference is that the stamina goes up incredibly slowly when gaining skill levels (but it does go up).
I got me wondering how stamina gain is determined. Does it depend on other stats like strength and dexterity?
I ask because i have gained 33 skill levels, and my health has gone from 1 to 418... but stamina from 25 to just 104. Obviously, due to starting at 1 my strength, dex, etc are still very low and i was wondering if this was the reason.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Sophia »

Saumun wrote:When i restarted it with the stamina set at 25 as Ian suggested, everything seemed to behave normally (health, mana, and all other stats were left at 1).
The only noticeable difference is that the stamina goes up incredibly slowly when gaining skill levels (but it does go up).
I got me wondering how stamina gain is determined. Does it depend on other stats like strength and dexterity?
I ask because i have gained 33 skill levels, and my health has gone from 1 to 418... but stamina from 25 to just 104. Obviously, due to starting at 1 my strength, dex, etc are still very low and i was wondering if this was the reason.
The big difference is that your stamina increase is based on what your stamina is already, while your health increase is based on your level plus a random bonus. So, if your starting stamina is very low, your stamina increases will be very low, too, while your health increase has nothing to do with your starting health.
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Saumun »

Aha... I see!

After all that, the game crashes when i gem the Firestaff. Must have an old version without bugfixes. Is there a link for a fixed version?
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Re: Dungeon Master with one "extreme" Champion

Post by Sophia »

I'm honestly not sure, unfortunately. There are a couple of different versions of DSB-DM floating around, but we never quite got to the "definitive" one (i.e., a direct translation of DM, like DSB-CSB is) so I'm not sure what the state of them is. :(

Maybe someday...!
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