New Player Question

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New Player Question

Post by slide »

Hi All

I did a run through of DM a few years ago and enjoyed it. I decided to return to the game for another go. This time I figured it'd be simpler to take only one champion vs the four I tried last time on the theory that food / water management would be easier this way. So far it is. My solo is Tiggy who suffered a few early one shot kills until I got the rhythm down again. My reason for Tiggy was that he could cast light from the start so I don't have to scrounge for torches. Darkness was an issue my first go.

I'm at the level where there are rats. My grades are Fighter: Artisan; Ninja:Expert; Priest:Artisan; Wiz: Master.

I'm not clear how one gains level. I see when I hit something with a ninja tool such as a dagger or a fighter tool such as a sword, the hit points scored flashes for a short while. Are these points added to my total which determines my level? If so, is a point a point? That is, will 20 points scored against the angry cabbages the same as 20 against an angry toothed cornucopia or a rat?

How does the game score if I don't see the score posted as I would when I whack something with a sword? I ask because while I do cast many light spells, I am not casting too many fireballs to give my guy a chance to level up using conventional weapons but my Wiz score is much higher than my Priest despite my sense I make many potions.

I also tend to throw food at the foes such as cabbage slices or cornucopia rounds. I never see a score when I do this but there must be because I leveled up once on the Ninja scale while doing this to a cabbage.

Finally, is my level progress reasonable for my place in the game or would I be advised to return to the cabbage resurrection unit and level up before proceeding? Thanks for any info.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

You accumulate XP points for each action pertaining to a certain skill. So using swords, axes, etc develop the fighter skill. Throwing stuff, shooting, punching, etc develop the ninja skill.... and so on. Even getting hit by a monster adds XP. There is also an XP multiplier that increases the effect depending on how deep in the dungeon you are (not in RTC though).

As for where you're at... You should have no problem carrying on down from here. I'm usually only around adept/expert levels at the end of DM because i don't have the patience to level up. Main problem with solo Tiggy is how much you can carry with low strength. Maybe get another couple of fighter levels, but you'll get them naturally as you progress. No need to go back. If you're desperate for food there's a rat respawn room on this level.
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Paul Stevens
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Paul Stevens »

Levels depend on Experience points which are hidden (unless
you are playing with CSBwin, in which case you can see them
when you set the window size to one).

Go to http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/691 for some discussion.

You are doing just fine in your game.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

What's an angry cabbage? :lol: Is it the purple worm?

I think your progress is good enough. If I were you, I would try to gain one more fighter level - the rat ressurection room at the end of the level is very good for that. I wouldn't worry about my priest levels.

Oh, and Tiggy is "she" I think, isn't she? :wink: It's quite hard to finish the game with her. So, good luck with the rest of it and keep us informed! :P
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

From the sound of things, the "angry cabbages" are Screamers, and the "Cornucopiae" are Worms :D. Yes, Tiggy is female. And yes, those skill levels are good for being that deep in the dungeon - I tend to take two characters and they're normally around Expert in everything except Ninja (which tends to be Journeyman) and do fine through CSB as well :). Just keep at it, cast spells at the highest level you can manage...should easily manage Mon-level for Wizzy spells but may not quite be there on some Priest ones, depending on which ones you try to cast. I never bother with any Priest spells outside of Vi and Vi-Bro potions, and Wizard-wise I tend to only really use Light and Fireball so I don't tend to have much of an issue. If you're trying to cast the various Shield spells and stuff like Lightning Bolt all the time, though, you may find it a little trickier ;). But you've picked Tiggy, who is the best caster at the start of the game so you would've effectively had a bonus to your magic-related stuff at the expense of your stamina and hp :).
If you feel like you need some training, as mentioned there is a Rat regeneration area near the end of your current level (Level Nine) similar to the Screamer Room that was back up on Level Four. The end of that level is a common spot for people to return to to dump any crap they don't want, as well as get a drink and some food if they need it (there is a fountain right around the corner from the Central Stairwell as well as the Rat Room not too far away).
DM isn't the kind of game to show you "points" on the screen, there is no High Score table or anything like that (though I seem to recall each of your characters is shown a "score" at the end of the game, calculated from all kinds of complicated everything that you never see ;)). Just have the satisfaction of being able to blow stuff up really easily with your max-level spells or hack them to bits in a few hits :D.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Thanks all for the info and Paul, for the link. I am playing CSBwin. And yes, Ameena, I think you have the right of it. There are several screamers in the game such as mummies or those green things in the big round room but only one reminds me of a cabbage on a stump so I hoped to have narrowed it down some in explanation.

I had some issues with the rat room. They have too much power for me if I lose concentration while 'dancing' them or I have to contend with two. The cornucopias operate in tandem and so are manageable but the rats think for themselves to my detriment.

I'm hardly looking for being a high scorer. That's not why I asked about my levels. I was curious if the game, which is stiffening lately, is reasonable to take on at my current levels or if I need to up the game some.

As far as Tiggy's gender, well, I"m surprised. I am going by his/her pic and in the pix I saw in the original selection area the females all looked clearly female but I saw Tiggy as male. Going by memory, there's a blond girl who is obviously a girl as well as a dark girl with a vaguely east Asian cast as well. Nobody would confused their genders. How do you know that Tiggy's a girl?

Clearly time to hoist the chests and trudge onward and downward.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

slide wrote:only one reminds me of a cabbage on a stump so I hoped to have narrowed it down some in explanation.
Ah, OK, so you do mean the Screamers. We used to call them "trees" in the old days.

(well, in my pidgin English I mixed cabbage and sausage when reading your original post too fast so I thought you were referring to the worms :lol: )
slide wrote:I had some issues with the rat room. They have too much power for me if I lose concentration while 'dancing' them or I have to contend with two. The cornucopias operate in tandem and so are manageable but the rats think for themselves to my detriment.
Always lure a rat from the room to the door and out. When it's in the door, push the button to shut it and step back two times, you'll be in the corridor safely with one rat only and the door closed. Kill the rat using the "side-step-dance" in the small 2x2 area in front of the door. That's the safest way.
slide wrote:As far as Tiggy's gender, well, I"m surprised.
You'll be even more surprised then to hear that Wuuf is a girl too :wink:
slide wrote:Clearly time to hoist the chests and trudge onward and downward.
I believe this is not connected to the gender issue above, is it? :roll:
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

Well, Tiggy is a girl's name, so there's that ;).
Rats I tend to deal with via Fireball, which makes them not too tough to take down (and I like to think it cooks the drumsticks ;)). The fact you're doing a solo game automatically makes it more difficult if you're trying the step-dance (or any melée combat at all, really) since you immediately have half the attacks you would otherwise have just because there is no second person on the front row. Solo Tiggy is believed to be the biggest challenge in terms of party selection, I believe (owing to her very low physical stats that can get you one-shot by Screamers in the early game), so you've ensured you're playing a high-difficulty game just because of that. So you can feel even more proud of yourself when you finally complete it :D. I did a solo run with (reincarnated) Wuuf once and completed DM okay, but got stuck partway through CSB and gave up.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by terkio »

Tiggy is gay. He picked a girl's name. :wink:
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Trees? I suppose they do look like trees.

As to Tiggy being a girl's name, I'd never heard of it before or outside this game so went by the photo as well. I don't remember what Wuuf looked like in the museum of paintings. I just used Google to search on Tiggy coming up with a Danish celebrity of some sort which could have been the name model of the character, but surely not the image. Not even close. OK, a girl then.

Well, I'm committed to Tiggy now and no turning back. Perhaps a team of at least two would have been easier especially since melee fighting seems to be demanded here. I say that because I've encountered the scorpions now and have found three max power fireballs do not delete them. They need a few plus a bunch of whacks from a sword. I suppose a very patient coordinated player could defeat one using Ninja tools such as kicking, but I tend to zig when I need to zag at least once per 'dance' and they hit so hard that can be all it takes to do me in.

Is there a list of foe health points? I'd THINK the max would be 256 but the scorps have me wondering if that's really the case.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Paul Stevens »

Is there a list of foe health points?
Almost anything you can ask is answered at dmweb.free.fr.

For example, see:
http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/1363
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

Wuuf is the one that looks like a dog :). I always refer to him as male even though it was discovered at some point (in some game files I think, maybe) that he's suppose to be female :D. He's one of the two I take in my usual team (the other being Hissssa, though both are reincarnated so I give them different names).
Scorpions are nasty buggers, yeah - I rank them as having the scariest-sounding attack noise (or possibly sharing first place with an attack noise you will hear on the lowest level of the dungeon...) out of all the mobs in the game. They do take a few Mon-Fireballs to deal with, which is how I normally take them out - up close they really hurt :(. Just remember that button-operated doors are your friends when it comes to pretty much every monster in the game (apart from non-material ones and those that can cast the Zo spell) if you need to keep them back for a while :). Bear in mind that I'm pretty sure they are fairly resistant to a lot of attacks (all that armour plating), which may be why they seem to take forever to kill - your attacks will be doing less damage against them than against, say, a Screamer :D.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Paul Stevens wrote:
Is there a list of foe health points?
Almost anything you can ask is answered at dmweb.free.fr.

For example, see:
http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/1363
Thanks for the link but it raises more questions. For example, it says the base health of a water monster is 80 yet I've had hits on one over 100 but it hardly killed the thing. In fact, these make scorps look easy to kill. I hit them time and time again dancing around until my hand gets tired and finally manage to smoke one. I'd guess it's more like 800 than 80. I tried throwing that spell which dispatches green ghosts to no avail or none I can see.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Ameena wrote:Wuuf is the one that looks like a dog :). I always refer to him as male even though it was discovered at some point (in some game files I think, maybe) that he's suppose to be female :D. He's one of the two I take in my usual team (the other being Hissssa, though both are reincarnated so I give them different names).
Scorpions are nasty buggers, yeah - I rank them as having the scariest-sounding attack noise (or possibly sharing first place with an attack noise you will hear on the lowest level of the dungeon...) out of all the mobs in the game. They do take a few Mon-Fireballs to deal with, which is how I normally take them out - up close they really hurt :(. Just remember that button-operated doors are your friends when it comes to pretty much every monster in the game (apart from non-material ones and those that can cast the Zo spell) if you need to keep them back for a while :). Bear in mind that I'm pretty sure they are fairly resistant to a lot of attacks (all that armour plating), which may be why they seem to take forever to kill - your attacks will be doing less damage against them than against, say, a Screamer :D.
Yes, I had noted that my hits aren't scoring so many points against the scorps as against anything else. My issue now is with the water things which take forever to smoke. By the time I get one smoked, one or two more gen making it impossible to proceed. I'd leave them behind if possible. Maybe I need to try a different door. I'm supposing the doors have different foes in them. I'm at the confusing level where I walked around in circles (ok, squares) over and over apparently being transported around to other squares in no pattern I could discern. Anyway, I finally got out of there.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

slide wrote:Maybe I need to try a different door. I'm supposing the doors have different foes in them.
Yes. I prefer the right door where there are
Spoiler
Trolins
which are quite easy to kill (but there's quite a lot of them, on the other hand). The third way is occupied by
Spoiler
Wasps
.
slide wrote: For example, it says the base health of a water monster is 80 yet I've had hits on one over 100 but it hardly killed the thing
Base means something like the minimum value, most creatures would have more. Exact HPs of individual creatures can be read in CSBuild.
slide wrote:I tried throwing that spell which dispatches green ghosts to no avail or none I can see.
Not exactly usefull against things that move fast (which the Scorpions do). Use Fireballs or swords; don't be afraid to throw FUL bombs at them if you have any. If you encounter one Scorpion, kill him using the side-step-dance. If you encounter more, run for your life. :wink:
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

When you used the des ew spell (the one that kills the ghosts) against the water elementals, how many did you cast? It will take a few high powered des ew spells to kill one. Alternatively use a vorpal blade.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

I think Water Elementals go down in about three-ish castings of a Mon-level Harm Non-Material being spell (Des Ew, as mentioned - "that spell which dispatches green ghosts" ;)), and as noted you can also use a Vorpal Blade if you picked one up (I think there are only two in the whole dungeon, but as you're going solo you'll only need to have found one of them :)). Note also that if you use a Vorpal Blade, though all its attacks can harm any creatures (material or not), using the "Disrupt" attack actually grants you Wizard exp, not Fighter like the strongest attack on most other weapons :).
As Jan has mentioned, in the current level you're on (Level Eleven), the three doors have different enemies behind them - I personally favour the same one he does, and for the same reason :D. I think you can still find Water Elementals behind the other two doors, but only one or two as opposed to...however many are behind the Water Elemental door :D. All three come out at the same place, anyway, and each contains minimal loot so don't worry that you're missing out on anything important in whichever two routes you don't take :).
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Oh, I went back and tried another door finding blue meanies which were trivial to deal with before I read this thread continued. They tended to flee from Tiggy rather than engage so were easy to whack from behind. I did get a Vorpal Blade from a girl passing through who said her name was Alice but before I could ask more, she was gone.

I did try a few of those abolish green ghost spells on the animated puddles but didn't see much use even at top level so I danced them with the Vorpal which was an exhausting repetitive exercise.

I'm now again facing a difficulty, but unsure what's up. I'm down a level facing what seems to be even worse than the puddles. These are medieval knights which seem close to invulnerable. They're worse than the puddles because they hit so much harder so one misstep means a good deal of lost hp. I managed to trap one where I could experiment on it. I threw 10 top level fireballs on to it and it made no difference. Dancing and hitting it with Diamond Edge sword produces discouraging hp damage on the order of 5 to maybe 30. I finally killed two - one by repeated door dropping and one by a very long and tedious hit, run, hit, be hit hit hit hit be hit, sleep [loop].

I then spotted two in a hallway which sapped my resolve. I mean, given what it takes to whack one, I can't see how it's even possible to whack two. 10 fireballs? I also have hit giant crabs and a few flying spaghetti monsters which are at least addressable.

Jan: OK, thanks for the info on hp, I"m not clear on what CSBuild is.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

Fireballs and other spells are more or less useless against the Knights (Animated Armour) - just the Lightning Balls do some damage. Do not waste your mana on them - kill them with a sword, using the hit and run tactics. The Diamond Edge is the best weapon for this because it reduces the enemy's armour.

In the corridor where you encounter two Knights, note that there's an invisible "force field" in one place where the corridor makes a turn, it will hold the knights there and won't allow them to follow you (just go back, the knights will follow you, and in this spot they'll just stop and won't go any further). Use this spot for the hit-and-step-aside tactics.

As for the CSBuild, it's a tool to build new dungeons and explore the old ones (I mean those for CSBWin of course) - http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/697 . But of course, it would spoil the game for you, so I recommend using it only when you've finished the game.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

I find Level Twelve to be the worst level of the lot, monster-wise. The Knights, as you've discovered, are highly resistant to most things. Personally I just use the step dance on them and take advantage of the "monster barriers" (there are two on the level), corners with an invisible barrier that prevents monsters from passing, as Jan has mentioned. With the Knights, it's just a matter of being patient and hacking them down - it's probably not worth the mana to cast stuff at them. The Giant Spiders are probably the easiest mobs to deal with on that level - a couple of Mon-level Fireballs should deal with them. And the Spell Vines...urgh...the entire eastern side of the level is crawling with them but you don't actually have to go there unless you really want the Darc armour set for some reason.
For melée fighting, I have come to favour weapons with the "Thrust" attack, because they seem to do good damage with a decent recovery time (compare, say, Berserk, which can deal really good damage if it hits, but recovers super-slowly so you have to wait longer to make another attempt to hit something). In DM, the applicable swords in that case (and in the order you find them) are the rapier, Delta Blade, and Inquisitor (you won't have found the latter yet).
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Thanks, Jan, for the info on the fireballs. I've perhaps, come to rely on them too much and when they failed to have an effect, I was lost. I'll check out that CSBuild after finishing the game or giving up. Lately the game seems to be to be a good deal of tedium. That square passage which changed or I transported or something, took me a long time to stumble through. I suppose I don't find those sorts of puzzles interesting, challenging or enjoyable game play.

I feel similar about the knights, Ameena. Hit, move, move hit, move move is all well and good 10x but when it takes maybe 50x or more, it's again, tedium over what I consider game play. I admit to having made an error in doing a solo and choosing, as it seems., the absolutely worst PC to do a solo with but I did it. I'm currently up to that rating below Expert in fighting and expecting Expert Real Soon Now. That's all well, but my Ninja training seems to be purposeless because I don't have Ninja weapons commensurate with my Fighter ones.

I'm baffled at this too. I 100% neglected Fighter skills until I was forced into it by the failure of my Ninja skills to take on the more advanced foes. Given the obvious level of thought that has gone into this game, I'm surprised FTL let the Ninja ball drop (as it were). I thought I'd have a katana or something similar to lever my Ninja skills against major foes but not to be.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

Fortunately, the two knights you came across are the last of them... unless you backtrack to the other side of the level for the Darc armour, where there are three more knights (pointless doing this with Tiggy as the armour is very heavy).

I agree with you about ninja skills. I pretty much never bother to develop them past artisan level (and only go that far for the health and stamina).
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Re: New Player Question

Post by oh_brother »

I think when I played this first I just ran away from the Animated Armours. Pretty sure it is possible, though now I just go for it with melee weapons. A bit boring, but good for building up you fighter levels.

I never thought about the failure of ninja skills as being a design flaw, but actually it does seem to be. I found throwing items too time consuming to bother with, and kicks/punches I only used for training.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by terkio »

I like to increase in all four skills evenly, I think its best at increasing health fast.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

At least one knight would have to be fought, as it has the emerald key. You could dodge the one with the key behind the ornate door. As for the two in the northwest near the morningstar... you'd have to be lucky enough for them to wander into a side passage to avoid fighting them.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

Saumun wrote:At least one knight would have to be fought, as it has the emerald key.
You have to kill him, but you don't actually have to fight him - you can kill him without even touching him. :wink:
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Well, Jan, I don't see how one can kill these knights w/o touching. If you mean dropping doors, I suppose that's possible but why do that when you can both drop a door AND whack them.

I did croak the knight with the key. Afterwards, the same with the two knights after a tedious but not dangerous fight at the barrier. Each knight took perhaps 40 whacks. The only useful weapon was Diamond Edge. Nothing that was ninja had any effect. The mace Morning Star would only register 3-5 hp / whack.

As to the mentioned here but not found by me Darc armor and Tiggy, yes, I'm wearing none and plan on keeping it that way due to the mass limitations imposed by my being a weaker single. I do have boots of speed acquired somewhat by accident from the scorpion area. I was hoping for more effect than I've noted in the relative speed of my PC vs Foes. Or perhaps other items of speed which so far haven't materialized. There may be some speed differential with them on or off, but not so much that I notice or can be less vigilant when engaging the foes at this, level 12.

I'm considering folding the game up at this point. I managed to fight my way through a room of spaghetti monsters to recover a master key in addition to the RA key found earlier. I then noted another Skeleton keyhole so figured the Master would work but it didn't. I was greatly disappointed. What else is a Master key but one which fits all locks?

So I spent another very long very tedious time dealing with the infinite crab room figuring the Skeleton key must be there. This involved many deaths and restarts. I'd dash in one or another door to do a quick scout in hopes of, if not getting, at least locating the key so I could later generate a strategy to recover it. It wasn't there and I'm sure now that I've passed it somewhere back in the enormous confusing labyrinth in between the spaghetti monster room and the RA key fireplace. Then again, for all I know, it's somewhere even further back.

I thought I'd examined the area carefully so have no idea where I passed it. This gives me the two discouraging alternatives of either retracing my steps and doing a tedious search while running out of water (I packed a goodly supply of food) or having to return to the RA area by retracing my steps all the way back up to the Rat area where I can take the open stairway.

I find either prospect tedious to say the least. Up until now, this game has been challenging but I am finding L12 to be more tedious than intriguing.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

Killing Knights without touching them: Remember the first room on this level. The one with invisible pits. Invisible pits that you can open and close stepping on that plate. Perhaps you could use this place to your advantage somehow? :idea:

Master Key and RA Key are the only two keys that you have to acquire on this level. You've finished this level and you're getting close to completing the game, actually. Don't you give up now! :)

Skull keyholes can only be opened with Skeleton keys. You don't actually need to open that keyhole, but if you want to, there's one Skeleton key on this level. It's quite far from here. Actually, it's on the other side of the level. Try to remember a door or a place where you couldn't continue on this level - a door that led nowhere.

You have the Master key and the RA key from this level. Right. That's good. Now, try to remember: what are the RA keys for? You've already used one RA key, haven't you? Perhaps it's time to use another one. And then another one.
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Ameena
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

With regard to Skeleton keys, there is one on each level from 9-12, one too few to open the stairs on every level down to 13 but there isn't really any need to open the one on Level Twelve (the one you're on) because...well, why would you want to go back there having trawled through it and managed to grab the two keys you came for? ;) You should have found a total of three Ra keys in addition to the Master key on your journey through the dungeon, and will now be able to use them for the thing they need to be used for...that is,
Spoiler
backtracking to Level Seven (the one above the big open one with all the ghosts and stuff) and using them to get to the Firestaff
.
As for skill training, I don't bother with Ninja at all, except to stop for a few minutes on about Level Nine or so and have my first character repeatedly throw something heavy (usually a boulder or chest) over and over again because it lands at my feet and I can immediately pick it up and throw it again. When it travels one square away (when my skill hits Journeyman level) I switch to the next character and repeat, because I'm lazy and I can't be arsed to take one step and turn around to throw it each time :D. As mentioned previously, I stick with Thrust-attack weapons because I find them a good balance of decent damage and fairly fast recovery time, so while I used to use Diamond Edge a lot "back in the day", these days I give my characters the rapier and the Delta Blade and later on the Inquisitor, but that really only gets to see any use against one single mob because of how late in the game you find it.
As Jan says, you're nearly at the end - you really only have about three things left you need to do :). And bear in mind you are doing this with basically the biggest kind of challenge - not just a solo run, but a solo Tiggy run. Go you! :D
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Jan wrote:Killing Knights without touching them: Remember the first room on this level. The one with invisible pits. Invisible pits that you can open and close stepping on that plate. Perhaps you could use this place to your advantage somehow? :idea:

Master Key and RA Key are the only two keys that you have to acquire on this level. You've finished this level and you're getting close to completing the game, actually. Don't you give up now! :)

Skull keyholes can only be opened with Skeleton keys. You don't actually need to open that keyhole, but if you want to, there's one Skeleton key on this level. It's quite far from here. Actually, it's on the other side of the level. Try to remember a door or a place where you couldn't continue on this level - a door that led nowhere.

You have the Master key and the RA key from this level. Right. That's good. Now, try to remember: what are the RA keys for? You've already used one RA key, haven't you? Perhaps it's time to use another one. And then another one.
I'm ahead of you. I did lure a knight to the pit line but it stopped short of it. Some sort of barrier. I suppose it'd work going the other way, but in my case, the knight was stopped. I never found another pit to drop one in. I suppose it would work with the moving pits near the Master key but I had dispatched the knights by then.

I know the RA key opens the rainbow doors and I suppose the Master will open something important down the line. My issue is I can't reach the level with the rainbow doors or can't do so easily because I can't source the skull key to open the fast track both to resupply my water (now critically low) or get to L7. The idea of retracing my steps past the blue meanies and so forth is too dreary to contemplate.
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