New Player Question

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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

slide wrote:
Jan wrote:Killing Knights without touching them: Remember the first room on this level. The one with invisible pits. Invisible pits that you can open and close stepping on that plate. Perhaps you could use this place to your advantage somehow? :idea:

Master Key and RA Key are the only two keys that you have to acquire on this level. You've finished this level and you're getting close to completing the game, actually. Don't you give up now! :)

Skull keyholes can only be opened with Skeleton keys. You don't actually need to open that keyhole, but if you want to, there's one Skeleton key on this level. It's quite far from here. Actually, it's on the other side of the level. Try to remember a door or a place where you couldn't continue on this level - a door that led nowhere.

You have the Master key and the RA key from this level. Right. That's good. Now, try to remember: what are the RA keys for? You've already used one RA key, haven't you? Perhaps it's time to use another one. And then another one.
edited due to error posting on my part
Last edited by slide on Fri May 20, 2016 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Ameena wrote:With regard to Skeleton keys, there is one on each level from 9-12, one too few to open the stairs on every level down to 13 but there isn't really any need to open the one on Level Twelve (the one you're on) because...well, why would you want to go back there having trawled through it and managed to grab the two keys you came for? ;) You should have found a total of three Ra keys in addition to the Master key on your journey through the dungeon, and will now be able to use them for the thing they need to be used for...that is,
Spoiler
backtracking to Level Seven (the one above the big open one with all the ghosts and stuff) and using them to get to the Firestaff
.
As for skill training, I don't bother with Ninja at all, except to stop for a few minutes on about Level Nine or so and have my first character repeatedly throw something heavy (usually a boulder or chest) over and over again because it lands at my feet and I can immediately pick it up and throw it again. When it travels one square away (when my skill hits Journeyman level) I switch to the next character and repeat, because I'm lazy and I can't be arsed to take one step and turn around to throw it each time :D. As mentioned previously, I stick with Thrust-attack weapons because I find them a good balance of decent damage and fairly fast recovery time, so while I used to use Diamond Edge a lot "back in the day", these days I give my characters the rapier and the Delta Blade and later on the Inquisitor, but that really only gets to see any use against one single mob because of how late in the game you find it.
As Jan says, you're nearly at the end - you really only have about three things left you need to do :). And bear in mind you are doing this with basically the biggest kind of challenge - not just a solo run, but a solo Tiggy run. Go you! :D

I want to open the skull area where I am to get to the rat level quickly so I can replenish my water. My food's ok as of now. I'd also like to open the rainbow door with the RA key to see what's on L7.

I missed the skull key on the scorp level, it seems. Returning through there even doing the blue rain bypass strikes me as too dreary to contemplate mostly due to the shifting square passage which took me hours to get through. I'd die of thirst likely doing it again.

I've concluded, after a rather exhaustive search, that the skull key on L12 must be in the east side area where you've said the Darc armour is. So I went there not only finding many spaghetti monsters but at least THREE more knights. Again, this isn't a matter of my patience (which has worn thin) but of lack of water making the tedious drawn out whacking of the knights impossible. Again, my resources aren't enough to engage them.

I am bothered by this L12. So far this was a terrifically designed game but for me it fell apart on this level. Completely. Throwing a half dozen (or more?) of almost impossible to deal with foes without any resources after two other levels lacking resources made the game unplayable for me or so I think as of now.

There was no hint to me that I needed to use my flasks as water bottles in addition to the two bladders I had fully filled at the rat level. My only shot is being able to bypass the knights in the east area, find / grab the skull key and then bypass them on the way out. I find that unlikely but I'll probably give it a shot after I regain some patience.

Since I"m playing the CSB version of DM, could it be that this game is calibrated differently than the original FTL one? I am not a master gamer but I"m not terrible. I may be flattering myself but I feel if I am stymied at L12, most others would have been too.
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Paul Stevens
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Paul Stevens »

It would be a great loss if you were to give up. DM is pretty
forgiving if you know what you are doing and where things are.
But, of course, that takes some research and practice.

Would you like to post your savegame and let someone take
a peek to provide a few hints? I bet there are several people
willing to help. Me, for one.

I don't know whether you reincarnated Tiggy or resurrected
her. CSBwin was a VERY perfect copy of the Chaos Strikes
Back engine. But DM had a different way of applying a
penalty at character generation time. There is a menu
selection to use the "DM Rules". If you did not use that
option, then it is possible that your Tiggy started out
exceptionally weak. Nevertheless, that is not the end
of the world. Her attributes can be built up easily.

Other folks may have a better analysis of your problem.
I am far from the expert in these matters.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

It really depends on whether or not you're dead set against backtracking. Unfortunately, the skeleton key on the floor above is fairly close to the start of the level... so you'd have to backtrack through most of the level. On the plus side... It's fairly short and straight because you're only taking one of three paths.
Once you get to the part where the trolins were (blue meanies), keep heading northeast. The key is in the northeast corner of the level behind a wall opened by a tiny switch.
I honestly don't know which would be quicker, as fighting the knights will probably take as much time as backtracking. As far as i can remember, there is no water at all below the rat level.
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Re: New Player Question

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To get the Skeleton key on this level, I don't think it would be that difficult, but you would need to backtrack quite some way - it is in that dreaded eastern section of the dungeon but you need to open the way first -
Spoiler
in the room just around the corner from where you got the last Ra key - the Ra key room was opened with the Topaz keym and the room you want is on the "inside" of that, a small 2x2 space with a single dead end alcove. In one corner of that room is a button on the wall. Pressing this will open the door (or maybe it's a secret wall, I can't remember) to the room containing the skeleton key. This room is over the other side of the dungeon, the eastern side (the bit with all those horrible Spell Vines), at the very northern end (the end opposite the one with the bits of Darc armour). Leg through there as fast as you can, up to that northeastern corner and you should find a room has opened up with some treasure in it, one piece of which is the skeleton key :).
And then, I suggest that you do not use the skeleton key on this level - the next one down is a lot less..."busy" around the entrance so it should be a simple matter to walk around and find the lock for the skeleton key (stick to the corridors and avoid the big room till you've done that). Then you never have to go up to Level Twelve again (you needed the Ra and Master keys from there and you have both) and can just hop up the Central Stairwell to Level Nine for a drink and (if you're out of food as well) some drumsticks :). Getting to Levle Seven from Level Eight shouldn't take long, it's just around the corner (mind the pit at the foot of the stairs isn't open ;)).
You are really, really close to the end of the game now and it would be a shame if you gave up. Solo Tiggy is the hardest challenge you could've given yourself so think how chuffed you will be if you can manage to complete it :D. Of course, the next challenge would be CSB but you could always quickly run through DM again with a different party and use him/her/them instead ;).
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

How bad is your water problem? Because there is a flask of water in that area with the three knights you've just entered - it's in the secret passage to the left that contained one of the three knights. If you could just get that somehow, you would have enough water to defeat the three knights (applying the closing door trick), get the Skeleton key, and open the Central Stairway on the level above (at the Enlarge my view).
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Hi All

Update. I considered the problem after logging off here and had a bit of an epiphany: I don't need to kill everything I meet. So I decided to avoid the three knights on the east side. I did croak the 4 spaghetti to as not to be trapped between the knights and it but then I ran to the room where, as it turned out, the skel key was. So were the knights but avoiding them to pick the key up was trivial. I then left closing the door and trapping them in the room where they can make no mischief. I'd previously looked the other knight from the entire east side by luring it out and then running back in while shutting the section door.

I never found the single again, but from there making it back to the area of the skel passage was simple. I am now on L7 having used the 3rd RA key.

Ameena, being as I didn't need any help getting the skel key, I chose to not reveal your spoiler section so if there was a query in there I"m not addressing, that's why.

Paul, Others - looks like I"m restarted. I'm again well stocked in supplies and if needed, have easy access to the rat or the screaming cabbage areas to restock. So far I have no issues except having to contend with large gray gorillas which are even tougher to kill than the knights but seem rather slow. My issue with them is that it takes so long to croak one, given my hits with Diamond Edge score from 0 to 20 pts, that my attention wanders and I get a whack or two. My PC is now about 375 hp so I can take even a 120 pt whack easily.

I tried fireballs against the gorillas but saw no effect. Does anything work other than sword whacking or door dropping? My PC is now Expert in all areas and a square Master wiz.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

Spells are almost useless against the Golems. I think they do damage them, but in such tiny amounts it isn't worth bothering.
Fortunately they can all be avoided. You can get the ones near the Inquisitor to follow you out to a safe distance, then run back in and get it (requires patience, as you'd have to lure the first one out and then go back). Likewise for the one near the winged key stairs. The ones next to the Firestaff don't move until you use the master key, so you've plenty of time to get it without fighting them.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by terkio »

Beware of the two golems guarding the firestaff. I think you have to kill at least one of them.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

OK, thanks. I have no idea what a winged key or an Inquistor is, but I suppose I now have access to the needed Firestaff if I either avoid or croak the golem gorillas so I'll either find out or not.

I took a peek at the L13 because I could. Found many of those hub caps on fire. I guess that's soon, but now for the firestaff, I suppose.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Paul Stevens »

No need to kill a Golem. I usually kill the one at the
top of the back stairs but that is just because there is
so much room that it is easy. Tedious, but easy.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

The Inquisitor is a sword. A very good one, but you don't need to get it if you don't wish to. It is at the end of the corridor that is opposite the ruby key door.

As for the winged key, when you go through the door via the ruby key... look for a tiny switch to the east near the wooden door. This opens a secret passage near the "Sundry supplies". If you head south in this new passage, there is another tiny switch that opens a wall a few steps north. The winged key is in here. If you then head back south and east as far as you can go, you'll come to another staircase (lure the golem into the large room to avoid it).
The staircase takes you to the bottom level, and the winged key opens a wall here. You don't have to go this way, but it allows you to get the firestaff down there without going past demons and black flames.
There is also a button in this staircase that opens up into level 8 (depending how you count them), so you can move between the two main staircases.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

I guees we should try to avoid giving too much information to Slide when he doesn't ask so that we don't spoil the rest of the game for him?
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Re: New Player Question

Post by terkio »

+1
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Re: New Player Question

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Woo, gratz on getting the Skelly key and getting back to Level Seven :). My spoiler was literally just directions on how to get that key, so you didn't miss anything since you managed to get the key by yourself :).
Yes, the Stone Giants are super-tough - they are made of stone ;). They are the slowest and the hardest-hitting mobs in the game but you don't have to fight any of them unless you want the Inquisitor (that strongest-at-the-Thrust-attack sword I mentioned previously), and even then you can keep shutting a door on them to make them back off before they have a chance to hit you (there are two you need to get past for the sword). You shouldn't have much combat left to deal with in the game, but as you may guess, being quite near the end, the combat that does remain may be a little more notable than the stuff you've wrecked (or run away from) so far ;).
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

@Jan... True! I really should have spoilered that.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Saumun wrote:The Inquisitor is a sword. A very good one, but you don't need to get it if you don't wish to. It is at the end of the corridor that is opposite the ruby key door.

As for the winged key, when you go through the door via the ruby key... look for a tiny switch to the east near the wooden door. This opens a secret passage near the "Sundry supplies". If you head south in this new passage, there is another tiny switch that opens a wall a few steps north. The winged key is in here. If you then head back south and east as far as you can go, you'll come to another staircase (lure the golem into the large room to avoid it).
The staircase takes you to the bottom level, and the winged key opens a wall here. You don't have to go this way, but it allows you to get the firestaff down there without going past demons and black flames.
There is also a button in this staircase that opens up into level 8 (depending how you count them), so you can move between the two main staircases.

AFAIK, I have no ruby key. I hope this isn't going to be an issue.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Ameena wrote:Woo, gratz on getting the Skelly key and getting back to Level Seven :). My spoiler was literally just directions on how to get that key, so you didn't miss anything since you managed to get the key by yourself :).
Yes, the Stone Giants are super-tough - they are made of stone ;). They are the slowest and the hardest-hitting mobs in the game but you don't have to fight any of them unless you want the Inquisitor (that strongest-at-the-Thrust-attack sword I mentioned previously), and even then you can keep shutting a door on them to make them back off before they have a chance to hit you (there are two you need to get past for the sword). You shouldn't have much combat left to deal with in the game, but as you may guess, being quite near the end, the combat that does remain may be a little more notable than the stuff you've wrecked (or run away from) so far ;).
I've decided to fight the stone gola ('golems' sounded wrong) after all at least until I get tired of it. I doubt I can make Master fighter but I'll give it a try. I'm quite disappointed at how pointless my Ninja training has been. I"m an Expert there but find it does me no good.

The two ranged strategies are Wiz or Ninja both of which seem purposeless at this stage of the game. The current foes are immune to anything but getting beaten on with swords. This messes with my initial strategy with Tiggy. I realized my avatar had little strength and little hp so I figured ranged attacks were the way to go to play it. It did work for a while. As the Ninja utility faded, the Wiz came up as a satisfying substitute. All that came crashing down when the knights came on the scene.

I'm a bit disappointed here that in the end, you either assume a melee fighter guise or you're essentially out of luck - assuming I can't continue to dodge my way through the game like I did east side L12. In RPG's, I won't play thief due to detesting same in real life. Dodging through a game is highly reminiscent of playing the Thief role.
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Re: New Player Question

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slide wrote: AFAIK, I have no ruby key. I hope this isn't going to be an issue.
I'm afraid it is... The ruby key opens the most northerly ra door (the keyhole is diamond shaped and has wall writing next to the door that says "Danger. Enter with caution").
If this door is open, then you've already used it and have no problem to continue. If not... the key is at the end of level 11 (the floor above the knights).
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Re: New Player Question

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slide wrote:I'm quite disappointed at how pointless my Ninja training has been. I"m an Expert there but find it does me no good.
Don't forget that each Ninja level gave you some HP and stamina points, and also increased your Dexterity and other levels (including Strength). But, yeah, generally, Ninja skills are somehow less important than Fighter and Wizard.

Interestingly, FTL originally intended to have Thief skills in the game, but later changed that to Ninja.
slide wrote:the stone gola ('golems' sounded wrong)
Golemi perhaps? :roll:
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

I know in RTC, increased dexterity greatly improves your chance of hitting in hand to hand combat (to the point where if it's increased to a very high level via ros potions, you never miss).
I don't know whether this is true across the board. Maybe Paul S could say whether this is the case for CSBwin.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by terkio »

I am quite sure RTC over emphasize the effect of dexterity, strenth and wisdom potions, both in power and duration. Boosted with strengh potions one becomes devastating with an inquisitor. Same when boosted on wisdom potions disrupting at the vorpal blade. I love to wack in one blow a worm or a mesmerizer.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

It certainly does over emphasise on duration. I've never tried ramping up so high in other versions, so i'm not sure what difference in power there is. I'll take Terkio's word on that.
I'm wondering whether the dexterity/chance of successful hit is broadly true of DM in all versions, or whether it is something George put into RTC (get your dex up to 255 in RTC and try it... You never get a failed attack).

I guess i'm thinking of ways to justify getting ninja levels beyond the obvious health and stamina benefit.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

Many can be read in the Technical Documentation, for instance here: http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/691

For example:

"All skills can increase Health, Stamina, Vitality and Anti-Fire. Fighter and Ninja skills can increase Strength and Dexterity."

"Dexterity: This value determines the accuracy of missiles and the odds of hitting opponents in combat. It also helps the champion to avoid or reduce physical damage."

Etc.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

I guess that answered it for me. It's amazing how often i forget to simply check the encyclopaedia.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

You don't need the Ruby key, it just gets you some extra stuff (like the Turquoise key) - all you need are the three Ra keys and the Master key, then you can just backtrack down the Central Stairwell to the lower levels. Panic not if you missed it :).
On the matter of spells versus melée, some creatures are just highly resistant to certain damage types - I don't bother with offensive spells outside of Fireball but there are monsters who are more susceptible to poison, and I think some can take more damage from Lightning Bolts since they deal both physical and fire damage. And then you have buggers like the Scorpions and Stone Giants who are just resistant to everything and you just have to deal with the fact that you need to poke them about fifty times before they poof out of existence :(.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

Ameena wrote:You don't need the Ruby key, it just gets you some extra stuff (like the Turquoise key) - all you need are the three Ra keys and the Master key, then you can just backtrack down the Central Stairwell to the lower levels. Panic not if you missed it :).
No, that's not correct. You do need the Ruby Key, it opens
Spoiler
the "Laboratory"
.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by terkio »

About how monsters take damages: The encyclopedia has a chart that tells about attacks: Fire, poison, spells etc. It tells how scareable they are, you'll be surprised on this.

Here it is: http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/1363
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

Jan wrote:No, that's not correct. You do need the Ruby Key, it opens
Spoiler
the "Laboratory"
.
Indeed. You use the three ra keys getting to the main section and need a fourth.
There is a quick route to the ruby key if you used a skeleton key on level 11. However, going off previous posts it doesn't sound like you did.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

Ohhh yeah, I forgot you needed a fourth Ra key to get into the big long windy corridor that leads to the Firestaff - I was thinking the Ruby key was only necessary if you wanted the
Spoiler
Winged key
or for some reason wanted any of the "sundry supplies" stuff :D. Oops, sorry!
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