New Player Question

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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Paul - the game feels dramatically different with DM Rules. I find it tough to accept that this was a one time benefit at the reincarnation but I can't, of course, demonstrate that my intuition is accurate. I see a dramatic difference in how hard the Wuuf (newly named) PC interacts with foes. I'm camped at the shortcut between L3 and L4 on the theory that it's rich in resources and practice targets. Where once it took me so long to dispatch a pair or purples that my movement hand would be tired by the finale, now it's a matter of a short dance to victory. I can do in a purple by throwing pieces of his deceased comrades at him - again something tried by my previous run and which failed.

Since at this point both my PC's are mid level magic users and edging to the upper ranks in fighting / Ninja skills, I don't need the war cry. New Hissssa was lagging a bit in magic until I hit upon the idea of a mana transfer from Wuuf to him via flask.

Ameena - OK, I took your light learning at L2 a bit further and have built up a solid team. Since doing things such as doing in a couple of purples has changed from a boring chore to a pleasant short dance, I'm having a significantly better time of it and so content to, at least for the moment, pausing at the shortcut between L3 and L4 for a protracted practice session.

Per your recommendation I reincarnated. I've built up levels perhaps not as quickly as Tiggy except I left Tiggy undeveloped 100% as a fighter until I met the grey gola in L7. This run I'm trying to develop all skills levelly. My lowest is Hissssa at Journeyman Priest. All skills for both PC's are above that with current highest at Adept / Artisan for a few skills. Wuuf can cast the upper level fireball and both can cast any spell if at varying levels. I expect the team is about ready to move on, then.

I still have not noted any benefit from armour. Is there a such a benefit that's significant? Also I"m guessing the effectiveness of a melee weapon is in proportion to its mass. Is that accurate? Besides mass, is there a difference in effect between maces, axes or swords?
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terkio
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Re: New Player Question

Post by terkio »

You find it much easier. Do not underestimate how much being aware or what to expect makes it easier.
I remember I had a hard time at the worm level, the first time.
Every level looked impossible at first, then turned out, quite easy.
This is what makes a good game.
Keep on trucking you are doing fine, you're on the right tracks.
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Saumun
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

Personally i favour an axe. They always seem to hit harder. Whether the apparent correlation between mass and hit power was intended or coincidence, i don't know.
The best weapon IMO is the axe 'Harcleave', found on level 10. Inquisitor is also good but comes too late in the game to be of any use.

In DM i never bother to have my characters wear anything heavier than mail armour, because there doesn't seem to be much difference in defence between mail and heavier stuff.
However in CSB, certain items of clothing can cause particular events (or non-events as the case may be).
Also in some custom dungeons, armour type can be a big benefit.
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Paul Stevens
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Paul Stevens »

slide wrote:the game feels dramatically different with DM Rules. I find it tough to accept that this was a one time benefit
You may just have to tough it out. But you must understand that
"one time benefit" is not a very accurate description of this
effect. We change the character's abilities/skills and, of
course, the effect lasts throughout the game.

I just opened the CSBwin project and searched for all references
to the DM_rules. I found two 'if' statements: both in the code that
creates a new character from the wall portraits.
If there is any evidence that I have missed something, we could
use a playback file that you think demonstrates the difference
in play and actually set a breakpoint on any reference to DM_rules.

Also, the source code is available for you to check for yourself.
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Jan
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

I never use any armour or shields, they're too heavy and completely useless. I only wear the old good leather stuff. If I have a stronger character, I give him/her the Mithril armour, but only because it looks and kind of feels better :) .

As for weapons, I prefer swords - gradually Falchion, Sabre, Sword, Rapier, Delta, Diamon Edge and Inquisitor (note that I always play with one character only).
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

Cool, it sounds like your skills are doing very well considering how early you are in the dungeon :). My duo tend to end up around Expert level in everything (except Ninja, which sticks at Journeyman since i never use it except the brief training session I mentioned before, which takes all of about five minutse, if that :D) by the end of DM and manage okay in CSB so you're doing good so far - you could probably complete the game okay with no further specific stops for training, just levelling up naturally as you do stuff :).

Armour, I agree, tends to eem pretty useless. It does seem to confer a minor benefit, at best, since I can remember once testing the effectiveness of headgear by deliberately shutting myself in a door with and without a helmet on - with no helm I was taking maybe 5-6 damage per hit, but with the helmet it was maybe 1-2 damage, so it was a noticeable difference, even if not a very big one ;). I will stick with leather or maybe a bit of chain (or the mithril chestpiece as I seem to recall it's quite light) and never bother with any kind of plate - I refuse to continue if I have either character in the yellow, weight-wise, so will ditch anything I don't need in order to keep them that way (most of my inventory space tends to be taken up by Screamer Slices anyway :D).

Weapon-wise, I prefer the Thrust attack the best, as it's decent damage for a relatively fast recovery speed. Compare to something like Hardcleave (the stronger version of the Axe, found near the end of Level Ten) which can do way more damage but is very slow to recover so you will get in far fewer attacks in the same amount of time (not great if you keep missing ;)). So I take the rapier (found on Level Three) while my other character has, I dunno a falchion or something...then when I get to Level Eight I get the Delta Blade and pass the rapier along to the other character...then when I'm on Level Seven to pick up the Firestaff I first stop off and get the Inquisitor (finally dropping the rapier as I pass the Delta Blade along to my second character), though the only thing that sees any use against is the Dragon :(.

Anyway, it sounds like things are going very well for you. I expect that a combination of things will make the game much easier (and possibly more enjoyable) for you thsi time - using DM Rules, taking two characters instead of one (both of whom are physically stronger than that one), having already played the game through (and so recently) so you know what to expect this time around...I'm sure you will have a much better time of it now :). You will also have a much better idea of which loot you actually need to bother picking up and which you can just leave behind :).
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Terkio - I"m sure being able to anticipate what I'll encounter makes for an easier and less tense game. I suppose also I"m in practice as far as being able to dodge about the place while giving a few whacks. I can take on many purple pairs never myself taking even a single hit.

Saumun - I"m considering tossing the armour I have on because speed seems to be the major factor in how I prevail in fights. I'd do it right off if I could find some more light clothing. While it's perhaps a bit silly, I am reluctant to have my little team run about starkers or with just speed boots when I manage to locate them.

Paul - I don't doubt your reading of the source is accurate. I just cannot fully convey how different this game feels. I can enjoy it and it never gets tedious like the last run did due to my then having to spend an inordinate time to dispatch almost anything. Another example: then I was never, not once no matter how much I tried, able to defeat a scorpion using weapons. It was fireball after fireball, then rest to rebuild mana and do it again. Not all that exciting. This run I am again at the scorpion regen area finding magic to supplement melee / ninga fighting. They are quite tough, but so far doable unlike before.

Ameena - My PC's currently are using the ax found on L3 and Delta which is sometimes swapped out for the Vorpal. I may try a new tactic now that I learned I can change the formation of my party. I note I can stack them so Wuuf is behind Hissssa. So I may use the mithral on Hisssa and in serious battles have Wuuf behind using magic attacks while Hisssa uses melee or ninja. This on foes which are weakened by magic, of course.

Interesting your door example. I can't determine if the helmeted hits decreased your damage by maybe >70% or by 4 pts. The former makes armour attractive. The latter hardly so. As to method of attack, I find different creatures are more or less vulnerable to any given attack so I experiment to see where I get the best yield. I have no idea if my conclusions are accurate or due to sample error.

The game is unquestionably more enjoyable this time. Spending 10 minutes in real time putting two purples away grows old quickly.
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Saumun
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

If you haven't already moved on, look out for Hardcleave near the end of your current level. Find a small switch that opens a wall next to you (close to a portcullis door). There is a skeleton key inside, along with the shield of lyte (i don't bother with shields) and another switch. This second switch opens another wall to your northeast (you don't see it open... it's around the corner). Hardcleave is in here.

Also, the magnifier is around this general area.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Too bad. I've moved on, but I think my weapons up to any task ahead.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

No worries... Push on and keep us updated. CSB beckons!
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

I tried for fusion but failed. I don't have the rhythm of the thing, it seems. Not giving up but relaxing for a bit.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

Can be tricky. Took me a while to nail him when i first did it. Easier if you can get him near a corner.
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terkio
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Re: New Player Question

Post by terkio »

I had a hard time because he teleports.
I firstly cleaned the room of all his demons, a lengthy task, using the smal 4x4 room as a base.
I finally finished him in this room, but I lost one of my four champions.
This was my first DM run on Atari 520 ST.
Later with DM PC, RTC DM and RTC custom games it was easier.
At the first encounter with LC, it took me two days to realize, there was no point to wearing him, hitting again and again.
I remember a nightmare, where I saw him in my bedroom, that was my wardrobe standing at me, in the dark.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

I, so far, have no had dreams incorporating the characters in DM and I'm glad to report same. I suspect my wife would have me institutionalized if I started nattering on about being pursued by water puddles and eyeballs.

I still have no managed a fusion. AFAIK, I have cleared the place other than the flaming hub caps and the foozle. I am having a bit of a do controlling where the the staff erects a wall, avoiding the flaming hubcaps and not falling through a hole. So far all my attempts have failed.

I may try again tomorrow. Too much to do today.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

Hmmm, that's strange, of course you should have some troubles doing it, but not too much troubles, particularly if you cleared all the annoying daemons. The Firestaff should erect a "cage" on the square directly in front of you. Chaos must be completely contained / surrounded by walls and/or cages. Do NOT cast a cage on him. Once he's completely surrounded, fuse him. As others said, luring /scaring him into a corner helps a lot; or, you can cast four cages around you, then step aside and when Chaos steps into the trap you've left there, fuse him.

Good luck there, fingers crossed! I know that this part can be somehow annoying, but trust me, it's doable. CSB is waiting for you! :)
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Saumun
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

I know it's not very methodical, but once he's in sight try casting cages everywhere... quickly. Even if you cause him to teleport away, get him in sight again and do it once more. Though the cages wear off, if you keep doing this you'll have cages all over the place and eventually he'll be close enough to some that you can cast one or two to trap and fuse him.
Trying to just cast enough just to surround him in one spot without him moving can be tricky.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

My preferred spot, going from either of the room's entrances (as they're in the same wall) is just off to the right, near the corner, where there's an area large enough to stand still and put four cages around yourself (but I leave one of the four slots empty since Lord Chaos never steps into a square containing a cage). Then it's just a matter of waiting - there are no Fire Elementals to swipe at you and it seems pretty rare that any Demons turn up to bug me - eventually Lord Chaos shows up and I get the bugger :D.
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terkio
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Re: New Player Question

Post by terkio »

You can scare Lord Chaos. Brandishing some staffs is pretty effective.
Brandish the staff of claws at him.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slickrcbd »

[quote="slide"]That's all well, but my Ninja training seems to be purposeless because I don't have Ninja weapons commensurate with my Fighter ones.

I'm baffled at this too. I 100% neglected Fighter skills until I was forced into it by the failure of my Ninja skills to take on the more advanced foes. Given the obvious level of thought that has gone into this game, I'm surprised FTL let the Ninja ball drop (as it were). I thought I'd have a katana or something similar to lever my Ninja skills against major foes but not to be.[/quote]

Sorry to necro this, but I feel I need to address the ninja issue, and especially ninja weapons.

IIRC, there is only one (technically 2) decent melee weapon that develops ninja skills, and you get it very early on in the game: The Dagger.
It is actually a pretty decent weapon, although not much better than a falchion or sword, though it might be between that and the saber.
I always keep those daggers you find throughout the entire game so I can train ninja levels.
That said, you can also develop ninja skills via ranged attacks of all kinds including the bow, crossbow, speedbow, and sling.
Another thing, I found one of the best ways to beat rockpiles is to punch them out and once they hit you, retreat and heal.
I found combining a shield potion with the above tactic one of the better ways of dealing with the stone golems as well.
Screamers aren't much of a threat, so I always use daggers on them. Don't throw the daggers, use them to stab or slash. Unlike an arrow or poison dart, they are very good stabbing weapons.
Heck, I usually kill everything with daggers, thrown weapons/items, and spells (trollins are vulnerable to DES VEN, just as wasps are vulnerable to OH VEN, one LO DES VEN drops them on level 3, and it's been a while but I think you only need = (ON) level on level 11. UM OH VEN works for most wasps on level 6 with half only needing LO, only 2 or 3 need more than that) until I encounter the magenta worms, then I switch to better weapons for the worms, but I still try to use daggers for the less dangerous foes like the swamp monsters on the level after the worms.

Throwing stuff whenever you encounter a monster at range is a good idea. Projectiles and throwing weapons (daggers, darts, arrows, throwing stars) usually get stuck in the monster, but throwing a scroll or something not meant to be thrown usually just falls to the floor and you can pick it up again when the monster moves.

Also, and I don't recommend this, but flipping a coin or using "climb down" on a rope will train ninja skills. The rope takes 4+ stamina points each use IIRC and you can quickly deplete it. On the plus side, you don't need to climb down a pit to train with the rope, just use up lots of stamina potions. You're better making that person the leader and just chucking stuff at monsters in combat.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Phoenix »

I will recommend using the rope. Rope climbing yeilds the most experience for Ninja training. As long as you have a supply of food and water, you can use the rope 'climb down' to train Ninja and use Stamina potions to train Priest at the same time. Regardless of the choice to train or not, increasing your Ninja level gives you greater Dexterity and Hit Points. The greater your Dexterity, the more you hit and monsters miss. Fighter and Ninja give your champions the bulk of their Hit Points just as Priest and Wizard give you Mana.

DM doesn't really encourage class purity like D&D. My Champion(s) are typically ON or EE Masters in all classes at the end of a game.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slickrcbd »

Interesting. I'm usually only LO or UM master by the end of the game. I've finished it with the highest level being expert.

On the other hand, I do train all four classes. In the beginning I go out of my way to train ninja levels, and try to continue to do so with the less dangerous monsters later on. I don't even start fighter training until I encounter the worms, although once I got a fighter level on level two just from taking damage even though I hadn't used a fighter weapon.
Interestingly, it seems the fighter levels go up way faster at first this way than if I work on them at the starting levels. I assumed I was getting an experience multiplier fighting the worms on level 4 as opposed to fighting the mummies and screamers on level 2.
On level 2 I only use the daggers and thrown weapons like throwing stars, arrows and rocks. I keep scrolls in my ready hand and chuck them at mummies (and discard them for those puzzles that require you to leave an item behind).
On level 3 I throw a lot of clubs to take out the trollins and mummies while working on trying to be able to cast LOW DES VEN. The rockpiles I punch out. I rarely use the daggers (or any other weapon) on the mummies or trollins, I usually try to just throw stuff at them and keep my distance. Of course, I do try to get off a poison bolt at the trollins, but I'm usually not successful and don't have enough mana yet to rely on magic. I work on it whenever possible, but at this stage I can't count on magic and so once I've filled my flasks with VI and BRO potions, I tend to waste all my mana casting spells for practice (preferably in combat such as the poison spells) so that by the next level I can hopefully get off a LO-level fireball.
If I have Halk or Stamm, I'll put [one of] them in the back, make them leader, and give them the Teo Wand as soon as I get it, and make them practice magic exclusively, save for throwing stuff at the worms. I rarely just discard stuff I don't need, instead I put it in the ready hand and throw it away at enemies.

Another training tip for the very beginning would be to cast LOW YA without any flasks. Then keep hitting the cast button until you get "So and so needs more practice with this priest spell".
It is what I do if I ever take Sonja since you don't get any mana-boosting items until the Teo Wand on level 4 (technically the wand on level 3 gives you +1 mana, but it isn't enough for Halk or Stamm to cast anything).
If I take Leyla I'll have her start with LO VI until she needs a flask, then hit the backspace arrow and have her work on LO YA. By then she should get a priest level and have a bit more mana, although Sonja usually can't start working on wizard spells until she's a novice priest.
This works for anyone, but the others I recommend starting with VI, then moving on to YA once you can cast VI successfully without failure. They train two different skills, VI is easier to cast than YA, and thus you get more chances to fail YA before you need a flask. Note that both VI BRO and YA BRO is easier to cast than just YA, but takes more mana.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

You get more exp for stuff the deeper you are in the dungeon (at least in DM - not sure how/if it works in CSB since you start in the middle of the dungeon and end up at the top).

Anyway, I play the game using mainly Fighter and Wizzy skills to kill stuff, getting hold of the weapons with the Thrust attack (rapier, Delta Blade, then the Inquisitor, though the latter only really sees use against one monster...) for the meléeing and using Fireball for all my offensive spellcasting needs. My characters both keep an empty flask in their off-hands and I only cast potions as I need them. They still both end up with decent Priest levels by the end. I don't use any of the super-low/no-mana characters as my pair consists of (reincarnated) Hissssa and Wuuf. Hissssa has low mana but has enough that I can cast a Lo rune, rest to replenish the single mana point spent, and then cast a Ful rune. As such, I park myself at the bottom of the stairs at the entrance to Level Two and refuse to move from there until between the two of them they've managed to max out the light level (and got themselves some Wizzy exp and maybe a level each in the process) before I actually get started on things. I never use physical torches - why bother when I can create unlimited light myself and get exp from doing so? :D

Ninja levels just get kind of umm...neglected, pretty much. I don't have any need to climb down any pits that I can recall since in DM they pretty much all just dump you into a small room with a staircase that leads back up to wherever you just fell down from (a couple of these rooms have some loot but it's never anything super amazing or useful to me). So I just wait till I'm around level Nine or Ten and have each character practice by chucking something heavy (usually a chest if I remember rightly) over and over again until I actually have to step one square in order to pick it up. This gets them both to Journeyman level and is all the patience I have for training. So then I just carry on :). Usually end the game with the non-Ninja skills around Adept to Lo-Master or thereabouts. Ninja just stays put :D. But it's neough to get the same team through CSB as well so it's fine :D.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slickrcbd »

I tend to pick characters based on carrying capacity. I tend to pick from Hisssa, Darou, Halk, Stamm, and Sonja, and I think I've taken Azizi as much as Leyla.
I only usually take Leyla if I'm doing a no-starting magic challenge of Halk, Stamm, Sonja, and Leyla, which I found was an easier and far more fun run through than the "party of weaklings" when I took the ones with the lowest carrying capacity (I think it was Tiggy, Boris, Wuuf, and Chani, but I might have had Wu Tse and Gando instead of Boris and Chani, I can't recall. It was a LONG time ago and I only did that once as I found it challenging, but not that much fun).
Then again, I'm a pack-rat by nature both in and out of game.

I don't rest much unless I have to. I train when my mana is staring to get full and I can waste it on stamina potions or spells, and NEVER let the mana bar stay full, but mostly just try to keep working on the dungeon. Finishing with most of the Four Ways at the Adept or Expert level is not unknown for me, but truthfully I can wind up anywhere from Adept to ON Master, though I've never had all four ways at ON Master.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Simon »

Is there special code that stops lord chaos from taking damage? Because hitting him yields a number as if you hurt it, whereas hitting a ghost with a regular weapon does nothing. I wondered if he had 9 billion hp and could actually be killed if you played the game for long enough! Maybe he even has a death animation?
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Re: New Player Question

Post by ChristopheF »

The creature descriptor of Lord Chaos specifies that he is immune to damage. The code checks for this when inflicting damage to a creature and thus ignores all damage to Lord Chaos.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slickrcbd »

Phoenix wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:01 pm DM doesn't really encourage class purity like D&D. My Champion(s) are typically ON or EE Masters in all classes at the end of a game.
Actually, AD&D 2.0, the edition that was out when I got Dungeon Master, encouraged multi-classing non-humans, and if you could meet the stat requirements, dual-classing a human was quite powerful once you reactivated the old class. This was especially useful for non-humans if you enforced the level limits.

I formed an AD&D group around the same time I got Dungeon Master, shortly after getting Curse of the Azure Bonds (one of the Gold box games) for Christmas. At the time, AD&D 2.0 had just been released, and Curse of the Azure Bonds used 1st edition carried over from Pool of Radiance.
In AD&D 2nd edition, if anything it encouraged non-humans to multiclass, and dual-classing humans was not to be sneezed at if you could roll high enough.
Ameena wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:39 am Ninja levels just get kind of umm...neglected, pretty much. I don't have any need to climb down any pits that I can recall since in DM they pretty much all just dump you into a small room with a staircase that leads back up to wherever you just fell down from (a couple of these rooms have some loot but it's never anything super amazing or useful to me). So I just wait till I'm around level Nine or Ten and have each character practice by chucking something heavy (usually a chest if I remember rightly) over and over again until I actually have to step one square in order to pick it up. This gets them both to Journeyman level and is all the patience I have for training. So then I just carry on :). Usually end the game with the non-Ninja skills around Adept to Lo-Master or thereabouts. Ninja just stays put :D. But it's neough to get the same team through CSB as well so it's fine :D.
I kinda went over this before, but use the daggers found on level 2 (the first level below the Hall of Champions) to melee with to train ninja levels.
Some monsters like skeletons, rock monsters, wasps, and animated armor seem resistant to them, (and to a lessor extent couatls), and of course non-material monsters are immune, but just about everything else can be fought with them.
Of course, you might not want to use them on the more dangerous monsters like worms and couatls, and mummies are best dealt with at range, but just about everything else, pull out the daggers from time to time to train ninja levels.
Also, keep throwing random junk at the monsters. Whoever is selected as the party leader will be training ninja levels.
On level 2, don't fight toe-to-toe with the mummies, throw stuff at them. Same for level 3. The trollins should provide plenty of clubs, keep lobbing those clubs at the monsters. Especially in "Creature Cavern".
Rockpiles are another time to train ninja levels. I've found one of the best ways to beat them if you aren't using a weakling like Tiggy or Gando (and even then you should try to get them to gain a ninja level as more health, vitality, and dexterity is very useful to them) is to literally punch them out. Have everybody put their weapons away and take turns punching them out, as party members get damaged have somebody in the back tag in, kick the rockpiles and start feeding the wounded potions.
When somebody gains a ninja level, tag out and let somebody else work on gaining one, as I found if you gain two levels it seems the stat increase is lower if the eye is still red from the previous stat increase. Maybe I was just imagining things and the random number generator fooled me.
If everybody is wounded from the rockpile, run away, it isn't very fast and you can usually escape from most places you encounter them to a safe place to rest, drink some potions to restore health, and then return to the fray.

tl;dr
Throwing stuff (especially useless junk) at enemies all the time as well as occasionally using daggers to fight easier foes should enable you to keep up ninja levels.
Punching out rockpiles is another great way to level up.

ADMIN NOTE: Colour text removed as it was unreadable.
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Ameena
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

Oh, I know how to gain Ninja levels, I just can never be arsed - I stick to whacking stuff or casting Fireballs at it, and cast potions as needed (both my party members always keep a flask in their off-hand for these purposes). I tend to use the step-dance for the slower-moving melée creatures, but for the faster ones it's easy enough to back away from them down a corridor and just hit them when they step up to you since they never attack immediately upon moving. Also, Fireballs ;).
I've played this game enough now that I don't fancy arsing about taking ages to clear stuff - I just want to get on with things and standing in one place killing the same thing over and over again isn't fun. Hence the minimal Ninja training. It's best done on lower levels anyway, since you get more exp for it.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slickrcbd »

I find most of the monsters in the deeper levels are not suitable for ninja training save for throwing stuff at them, and thus the ninja levels tend to fall a bit behind, then I try to make up for them taking on the oitu with daggers.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

I just chuck a heavy item (eg a chest) over and over again once I'm down on about Level Nine or so. Pretty sure I described the specifics further up the thread.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slickrcbd »

I just tend to pull out the daggers to fight pain rats on level 9 when stocking up on food in the regeneration room. The rats aren't that tough. It is the scorpions that I am reluctant to use lessor weapons on.
Gigglers can be killed with ranged attacks, but are more vulnerable to fireballs and I want to kill them ASAP to recover whatever they just stole.
Wizard eyes if fought without other enemies lurking around can be engaged with daggers if I put up a fireshield, but usually on level 10 you have to worry about enemies sneaking up on you everywhere, especially scorpions that are dangerous and gigglers that will steal and if it gets away you might lose the item forever (or have to hunt it down with no trail to follow. PITA).
Daggers don't seem that great against skeletons, but it can be done, the problem is the same as the wizard eyes, you want to keep your good weapons equipped for the scorpions. Having the front-liners carry daggers and the rear-ranks carry good weapons is one strategy that works for advancing ninja levels, but the temptation is to throw the daggers at gigglers, so I am tempted to instead have things like the bow, crossbow, or sling equipped on the rear ranks.
On level 11, most of the wasps fall easily to UM OH VEN, but are hard to take out with weapons. Doable on level 6, but by this point they are more dangerous and an UM level poison cloud is a lot easier at this point in the game. Back on level 6 the LO version was still a substantial amount of mana and all but one group of wasps could call to the LO version, not so much now.
The trollins I tend to attack with ranged weapons or just throwing stuff like I did back on level 3, supplementing it with DES VEN. They I suppose are an exception to working on ninja levels. I tend to have the rear ranks equipped with launchers and the front ranks with vorpal blades as I kill the wasps with magic, the trollins with thrown stuff (and maybe weaken them with a LO DES VEN), and the water elemental with the blades.
Water elementals are attacked with vorpal blades to work on fighter levels and DES EW for wizard, no other options. YA EW seems to help.
Animated armors are hard to damage, I tend to use diamond edge and hardcleave. Supposedly lightning bolts affect them, but I've never killed one with OH KATH RA, and I've depleted my mana trying.
Oitus I will try daggers on. Have the rear ranks carry daggers and switch so I always have them available.
For level 13, I don't really worry about advancing and mostly just avoid the demons. I will kill a black flame or two to get access to the rest of the level, but that is all.
For level 14, I've posted my strategy for the dragon elsewhere.
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