Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

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Hrothgaar
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Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by Hrothgaar »

Hey all, me again :-p

Another question is lingering on my mind for a few days now, this time about the transition between tiles when moving in a 2.5d crawler like DM.
Do you think its a nice-to-have feature or do you like to have the DM-like step-to-step appearance of the tiles? Do you care at all?

Strangely enough for me I really like the step-to-step based method much better than the movement with transition between the different steps but cant really explain why.

(One reason for this question is me wondering why DM is still considered to be one of the best crawlers who have been done despite the implementation of some "modern" stuff.)
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Saumun
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Re: Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by Saumun »

Tricky one because I do like the effect of tile transition, but feel like it’s slowing me down.

I always remember a weird thing with the bard’s tale, where you had tile transition in the town but not the dungeons.
I’d find myself doing like twenty moves in the town, and then waiting for it to catch up.
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slickrcbd
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Re: Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by slickrcbd »

I thought I was the only one that thought that way. Especially with Bard's Tale highlighting the difference between the two. Although that part of the game catching up only worked if "Keyboard buffering" was turned on in the Apple IIGS Control Panel.

I always found it jarring, but Bard's Tale was not the only one to do something like that.
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Hrothgaar
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Re: Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by Hrothgaar »

Hah, thats really interesting, I would have bet the majority here likes the tile-transition-animation more than the games without these transition.
For me this added movement always felt unneeded and yes, the speed aspect you mentioned is another interesting point as well!
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Re: Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by slickrcbd »

IIRC in one of the two Apple IIGS versions of Bard's Tale II, you could turn off the transitions in town and on the map if you wished.
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JETENGINE
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Re: Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by JETENGINE »

If by tile transition do you mean something like the DM2 half-step, then I like it. If not, then please explain tile transition to me.

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Hrothgaar
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Re: Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by Hrothgaar »

JETENGINE wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:18 am If by tile transition do you mean something like the DM2 half-step, then I like it. If not, then please explain tile transition to me.

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You are right on track, I really meant the added animation in moving from one tile to the next.
I just looked at how its done in DM2 and have to admit they use an interesting concept as well:
There IS a tile transition effect if you move forward but NOT iif you turn or sidestep... Hmmm....
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Sphenx
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Re: Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by Sphenx »

Probably because of perspective issue, they might have not found a good looking solution for the turn and sidestep movement. Forward and backward is just about scaling the gfx but it's still not that pretty in the case of DM2 (overscaling resulting in pixelization). However Lands of Lore manages transition movement (and does it really fast). Then technically, you have a solution to handle the transition.
Having implemented this for a 3D crawler using tiles, I would say that:
- if you do the transition, I think it should be visually fast to let the step by step style work (else like Saumun said you will have the feeling of slowness)
- if you have a real-time engine like DM, the game engine must anyway take into account the time of "movement", so that the transition can be an optional visual feature (enable/disable) without altering the gameplay.
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Erik Bauer
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Re: Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by Erik Bauer »

I find the DM approach (no transitions) to be better for bitmap 2.5D crawlers. Even if the forward-backward effect used in Skullkeep and Bard's tale was very nice to look at, the sidesteps and turning effects were a let down for me, and you can imagine why: it's very hard to implement such an effect on a bitmap based engine without coming out with something that feels at least a bit "weird". You'd have to use at least a proper 2.5D engine (like the one used by DooM) in order to achieve a good effect.
In fact I started to appreciate it while playing Grimrock, but after all it is a full 3D engine whose movements are cell based
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JETENGINE
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Re: Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by JETENGINE »

Yeah, I can understand not having a transition for turns (really complicated), but not having one for sidesteps? It's almost like being able to move faster by sidestepping!

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Sphenx
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Re: Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by Sphenx »

Have you finally choose, Hrothgaar ?
- For a 2D crawler, Lands of Lore covers the transitions for forward, side and turn -- they manage it like a fast image slide between the 2 front views (current then new)
- DM2 actually offers the forward transition as a visual effect only (which can be activated/deactivated using SKWin for example), I mean the time you wait between tiles in DM1 is the same in DM2, just that the visual transition gives better the feel of movement.
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Hrothgaar
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Re: Does tile-transition help 2d crawlers?

Post by Hrothgaar »

Yes, we are keeping the DM1 / EOB style for now but the framework will be open source, so smoother transitions could be added later on optional basis.
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