Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Discuss Chaos Strikes Back, the "expansion pack" for Dungeon Master.
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lord soth 75
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Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by lord soth 75 »

I have moved my DM champions over to CSB,and am going to try to beat this game.
Unlike DM,I have NEVER played this game before.

When CSB was originally released (89?) i had moved on from 16 bit computer gaming to Console gaming instead.
All i know about this game is from reviews that i read in video game magazines of that time.

*Please note. I have purchased Street Fighter X Tekken on xbox360 this afternoon,and will be playing a lot of that game online over the comming months-So,my adventures with Chaos Strikes Back may take some time.

*****My starting characters (and their stats) for CSB****

HALK
Expert Fighter-Journeyman Ninja-Craftsman Priest-Adept Wizard
Strenght:62
Dexterity:49
Wisdom:42
Vitality:58
Anti-Magic:56
Anti-Fire:57
Health:305-Stamina:198-Mana:80


STAAM BLADECASTER
Expert Fighter-Journeyman Ninja-Craftsman Priest-Craftsman Wizard
Strenght:59
Dexterity:50
Wisdom:44
Vitality:63
Anti-Magic:49
Anti-Fire:76
Health:296-Stamina:213-Mana:69


MOPHUS THE HEALER
Adept Fighter-Novice Ninja-Adept Priest-Master Wizard
Strenght:53
Dexterity:42
Wisdom:54
Vitality:61
Anti-Magic:57
Anti-Fire:55
Health:311-Stamina:167-Mana:154


TIGGY TAMAL
Expert Fighter-Craftsman Ninja-Expert Priest-Master Wizard
Strenght:38
Dexterity:49
Wisdom:63
Vitality:48
Anti-Magic:77
Anti-Fire:50
Health:252-Stamina:123-Mana:186
Romero and Carmack NEED to re-group.Modern gaming needs to be saved from the greedy bastards who are ruining it all.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Gambit37 »

You may find the game a little tough with those stats, the health in particular is quite low. And since you're playing this on RTC, it'll be *much* tougher than if you were playing the original. You might want to beef up your characters a bit more in DM first, by training them in the Rat Regeneration room on level 9. Not that I want to put you off CSB or anything, but you may get too annoyed starting the game with low health as it's very tough from the outset.... ideally, try and get your characters to above 400 health.

Bear in mind that some creatures are equally overpowered in RTC CSB as you found them to be in RTC DM.... so while there are no Beholders, there is another similar creature that hits just as hard ;-)

For a more balanced experience, you may want to try playing an original CSB, (using an Amiga Emulator which runs on Windows), but that would mean playing DM all over again to get your starting characters again. If you don't want to play DM again, you can start CSB by selecting new, more powerful champions from the Prison instead...
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by lord soth 75 »

@ Gambit

The only problem is.......My last save game on DM was when the skeleton stairs closed after i got the Firestaff.
So,i have no chance of returning to the rat room to increase my stats.

Damn! I KNEW i should have had more than 1 save slot.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Gambit37 »

Don't be put off -- CSB is definitely doable with those champion stats. It just might feel a little challenging to start. A tip:
Spoiler
move as soon as the game starts, and keep moving
:-)
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Trantor »

Yeah, stronger heroes would be better, but you can definitely do CSB with those champions. The hardest part is finding your way around, not super-tough monsters (though CSB has quite a few of those as well).
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Ameena »

Yeah, it's not so much an abundance of mobs that will get you, it's more the wandering around for ages being lost and accidentally dropping down pits and stuff ;). There are places, as Trantor says, where the mobs can be a bit nasty (either because there's a lot of them, or because they're just tough anyway), but also plenty of nice places where you can hide away in a corner and cry...er, I mean, where you can have a rest and recuperate and heal up and stuff ;).
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by beowuuf »

I still think everyone is steering you a harder game than you want, but good luck!

CSB is unmappable in a way, your friend was right - there are areas where you can be randomly teleported at certain junctions. The areas all connect, so you can find your way around, but you might start at one of three start points and not realise. Also, falling down pits for a few levels can disorient you too.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by oh_brother »

And there is a sort of logic to CSB, it is not quite as random as it seems. It took me 20 years to see that. Well, 20 years with a big break in there.

Even though things may seem to move around, you are always going for the same goal (finding 4 corbums and throwing them in the fulya pit). As for the overall layout - if you get very confused you could ask for a rough outline of the dungeon plan.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Jan »

lord soth 75 wrote:*Please note. I have purchased Street Fighter X Tekken on xbox360 this afternoon,and will be playing a lot of that game online over the comming months-So,my adventures with Chaos Strikes Back may take some time.
Don't worry, it would take you much time anyway. A month is no measurement in CSB. :wink:

Always try to use the Hint Oracle! Even if you're sure you don't need it, try looking at it.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by lord soth 75 »

Getting my bearings in the confusion of Chaos

Adventure Log#1

I started playing CSB this evening.
First of all,i gotta say how much i loved how the game begins :)
No torches.no weapons.no armour.no clothing. SURROUNDED BY purple worms. :shock:
Jeees! Talk about being thrown in at the deep end.

I took out the worms with fireballs.
Used golden coins to get the Magic boxes/Map,compass/Electrical Bolt firing sword.
Found a secret area in this worm chamber,and found a set of chain armour for Halk.
I saved my game,as i dont know which area to go next.(Iv got 2 save game for CSB)

The portculis leads to an area with many giant spiders.So,i went the other way instead into 'supplies for quick' and i fell down a pit.

All my characters are wounded,and i have no flask to create healing potions. :(
Kept wandering forward,and found an area that was teeming with Blue Insectoid's armed with clubs (tons of them),The fight took ages,but in the end i managed to take them all out.Went from that battle straight into a room full of Giant Spiders.Magic spells werent working here for some reason.

Later (iv no idea what level i am on), i found a massive area with a giggler running around,and a Red Dragon.
Killed the red dragon and was rewarded with much needed food along with a set of armour for my 2nd fighter Staam.
The Dragon dropped a solid key (Which i have no idea where to use)
Iv also got a gold key and 3 Iron keys and dont know where to use them.
I have no idea what level i am on,or what my immediate goals are.
My party are constantly injured because i have no flasks,Very low on food and water too.and it is here that i saved my game.

Where do i go now? I havent a clue :?
Last edited by lord soth 75 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Gambit37 »

Wow, you started with a chaotic bang :-) I'll let others chime in with advice, as it's been too long since I played and I don't remember all the details. But for a flask, there's one right near the start of the game. You can only get it from the first room by taking a different secret exit. Look for something that might act as a switch to open it....

You killed the lowest dragon, Mongor, so you're now on the lowest level of the game -- and as the only way is up, try finding your way back out of there...
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Paul Stevens »

The dragon is on the lowest level. There are
several areas on the lowest level. In each case,
the best way out
Spoiler
is via a fake wall, which you must
locate by going around the room and tapping
on the wall.
But, as is always the case in CSB, there is
more than one way out. Stairs also exist but
they generally take you to more dangerous places.
At least, you won't fall into any pits on that level!

I cannot believe that anyone can successfully finish
this game without at least a few rather specific
hints.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by lord soth 75 »

@ Paul Stevens

The main problem im having is knowing 'where' i am exactly.
I kinda stumbled my way around the dungeon like a drunkard.
There are stairs leading up,stairs leading down,keys(with seemingly no door to use on),and whilst i am trying to logically plan my next move...There are mummies or giant spiders or worms ECT constantly re-spawning. :?

My battle against the Blue Ant men took freaking AGES.I didn't know if they were re-spawning or not.
After the ants came a similar battle against a non stop assault from giant spiders.Neither of those fights made sense,because there was no reward :?
Shortly afterwards i encountered an area full of mummies (About a hundred of the bloody things!!) and lots of wooden doors everywhere.
The monsters are more of an annoyance than anything.And whenever i do engage in combat with them,it always seems like i get the rug pulled from under my feet,and i end up falling down a pit (That is invisible!!!)
Im trying to figure out what to do next..but,i feel the game isnt giving me the opportunity to do so.

I mean,i have about 5 iron keys in my inventory,along with a Gold key,and a Solid Key....But,WHERE do i use them??
Why do i keep finding stairwells that lead upwards,into nothing but an empty room?

Where is the food? where is the water??
Last edited by lord soth 75 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Ameena »

Well, certainly sounds like an appropriately chaotic start :D. They're not Purple Worms, though, they're Yellow ;).
On the subject of keys - you are gonna end up with a lot of iron ones. And probably a fair few gold as well. Besides those, definitely hang onto any other key types you get - certain particular keys are essential to completing the game, though as to avoid spoilers I won't tell you which ones ;).
Eventually you'll find your way to a certain "central" location, a spot which you'll find yourself at many times in the future. From the sounds of it, you haven't yet been there, but you're pretty much guaranteed to find your way there sooner or later ;). You can use it as a dumping ground for any extra crap you might have accumulated. You can pick up some useful stuff in "Supplies for the Quick", should you find your way back there again - easiest way to navigate it is to position your cursor in the air at the right height to grab an item from an alcove, then really quickly run round using the keyboard and grab the first thing you come across (then run back again to a safe spot). It works fine, as long as a random mob doesn't decide to get in your way :P.
Btw, the Ant Men are basically the CSB equivalent of Blue Trolls, ao I tend to find that particular area nice and easy to clear :). Some DM mobs aren't in CSB but tend to have equivalents (eg Ant Men = Blue Trolls). The spiders have a slightly different graphic but are basically the same. Likewise the Worms. Though presumably everything is a bit tougher, as CSB is a higher-level dungeon.
Basically it sounds like you're doing alright so far. Wandering around aimlessly is a good start - eventually you'll end up somewhere good :D. Well, probably. Or at least somewhere with food ;). I think there's a way to spawn Worms on that bottom level (okay yes, crappiest food source in the game but if you're desperate...;)), but I don't recall exactly where or how (may not be in the Dragon's chamber but elsewhere).
That "central" location I mentioned is probably the place to try and get to. Okay, so you don't know what it is but for future reference, here are a few hints as to what you need to do in the game...
That place is called the
Spoiler
Junction of the Ways
.
Down each
Spoiler
of the four Class-named paths, there is a key
.
You need
Spoiler
all four keys in the course of finishing the game
.
You already have
Spoiler
the key from Ku
.
Each of the
Spoiler
four paths eventually meets up
at a place called
Spoiler
the "Diabolical Demon Director" (aka the DDD)
.
Once you've found
Spoiler
all four keys
, you need to go to
Spoiler
the DDD
, where you use
Spoiler
them to open "Part Ywo" of each Way
.
Through each
Spoiler
"Part Two"
, you eventually end up at
Spoiler
the Corbum Pillar
.
You need to acquire
Spoiler
all four Corbum pieces
.
Once you've done that, you need to head
Spoiler
up to the very top level (one above the Corbum Pillar level)
.
Here you just need to find
Spoiler
the Corbum Pit
, at whicih point all that's left to do is
Spoiler
chuck the four Corbum pieces into it
to finish the game :D.
And that's all you need to do - have fun :D.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by lord soth 75 »

@ Ameena

There was worms in the Dragons lair.But because i was in battle with a Dragon i didn't pay much attention to them.
IF that area is a worm re-spawn ,i'll go back down to that level and grab some food next time i play.
There is a giggler running around in there too.The little freak must be on acid..He is about 10 times faster than the gigglers on level 8 of DM.

I fell into a pit on 'supplies' part,i managed to get a sword only. :(

Thanks for the info btw.
Im basically looking for 4 keys,and each key is in an area called Junction of ways (Thats how i understood your hints)
Which area am i in right now though?? I have no idea
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Paul Stevens »

The areas are somewhat distinct but are
interconnected. Again, there is always more
than one way to get anywhere. Once you
know the dungeon well, it is easy to go
wherever you please. God help you if you
go at this without a map. With a map,
a mere mortal could be of help. I don't
think words suffice to describe this dungeon.
It requires a map, lots of study, patience,
and practice.

When I first played, I tried making a map.
I had a few disjoint pieces figured out and
discovered that they were not disjoint at
all. They were neither connected nor
disconnected. They were chaotic. It was
not until I wrote CSBwin that I finally figured
out what was going on.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Ameena »

The Junction of the Ways is a crossroads - each of the four paths is labelled after the four character class types - Ku (Fighter), Ros (Ninja), Dain (Wizzy), and Neta (Priest). Right now, if you're still in that Dragon's den, you've found your way into part of Ku. If you wander around for a while (find some stairs from the level you're on - it's the bottom of the dungeon so there's probably less places to get to from here than other places, since you can't go down any further), you should eventually end up at the Junction. Had you not fallen down the pit you did at "Supplies for the Quick", you're actually not that far from it there. But don't worry - there's about a million other ways to get back to it ;).
Remember in this game that there are plenty of hidden transportation methods, as well as the obvious ones - that is, as well as things like pits, doors, and stairs, there are also fake walls (waking down a corridor bashing you rhead all over the place can actually be a good idea sometimes ;)), "invisible" pits (like the ones from Level 12 of DM), and invisible teleporters (ie you're walking down a corridor and pass over a teleporter without realising it because the corridor looks just hte same, till you get to the end and it isn't what you came across last time you walked along the same corridor ;)).
I advise keeping at least one Mon-Fireball ready at all times, for use against things like that Thief - you can get random Thieves at various points in the dungeon, and some of them can carry some good items, I think. Plus it's handy to be able to zap the little sods the moment you see them, ie before they have a chance to nick your stuff ;).
You'll find you way back to "Supplies for the Quick" at some point, I'm sure - it's on the middle level of the dungeon so there's plenty of routes to it. You can get some good stuff there :).
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Trantor »

Lord Soth, your feeling of being completely lost and not knowing where to go next is EXACTLY what sets CSB so much apart from DM. It's normal. Eventually, you will find a few ways you will follow again and again.
You entered the fighter path (Ku), which is why you had to fight so many monsters. Also, if you travel back up through the room with the Antmen, you will find that you won't end up where you started the game. Keep exploring more, look for new areas etc.
One level up from where you fought the dragon, there is a fountain. You will have to fight some more to get there (Deth Knights and Vexirks). To reach that, you may need to find an illusionary wall on the dragon level and then a tiny switch inside that one.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Jan »

LOL, Lord Soth, as Gambit said,
Gambit37 wrote:Wow, you started with a chaotic bang :-)
:D

I really can't imagine myself (or anyone else) finishing this game without a map. When I played it for the first time, I always saved my game, made a daring "kamikaze" raid to see what's next and try to do things rather randomly (something like you did) and then re-loaded the game and started a methodical discovering and mapping of the new part of the dungeon, tile by tile, tapping on the walls and reading the Hint Oracle on almost every square (you can imagine it was quite a slow process especially on the old computers). Of course, I also had to restart the game for many times because I got completely lost or screwed things utterly up. As Paul Stevens said, after a few months you'd end up with dozens of maps and then you would start realising that they are interconnected and there is some pattern. The most complicated thing for me was to understand how the Junction of the Ways works - I can't say I understood it fully at that time (or even now!) but the game started to be much easier when I finally got a general idea of the mechanism. Of course, it was also rather essential to explore the whole area of the Supplies for the Quick and thus getting a
Spoiler
flask
and the
Spoiler
Vorpal Blade
and many other useful things + finding the first fountain in the "Base" area.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Gambit37 »

There is also a
Spoiler
magic map
right back in that first room you started the game in. If you come back that way, make sure to have
Spoiler
some coins to purchase it
. It's not the
Spoiler
most useful map ever created
, but may help you a little.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by lord soth 75 »

@ Jan
lol. I basically entered the dungeon with a "Give me your best shot" attitude,and to be honest my characters have held up quite well against the monsters.Its the dungeon itself which is causing them the most headaches.Tiggy still is walking around barefooted,and my characters in general are woefully equipped.How the hell i managed to beat the dragon with this rag tag party i still don't quite know.

@ Gambit37
Yeah,i got the magic map.
When i play tonight my main priority will be locating a flask.These characters need to be healed urgently.
Romero and Carmack NEED to re-group.Modern gaming needs to be saved from the greedy bastards who are ruining it all.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Gambit37 »

He he, I have great mental images of your party and the state they must be in :D

Tiggy: My feet hurt.
Mophus: Shhh, there's something up ahead!
Tiggy: I'm telling you, my feet are killing me. I think I stepped on a pin.
Stamm: Well it's your own fault for not stopping to find some shoes!
Tiggy: What!? How was I supposed to do that! You ran off in the dark, fell down that pit and dragged us all down with you! I'm surprised I managed to even find this shirt!
Halk: Shut up the lot of you! Something's coming...
Tiggy: Oh, yeah, it's easy for you to say, you're happy prancing around with your shirt off, you great steaming gnat brained...
Mophus: Stop it, all of you, something is coming!
A vexirk rounds the corner, ambling about erratically. The party stares. Mophus laughs.
Mophus: Ha, look at this little dork! Let me flash my teeth at him and we can be on our wa....
KABOOOOOOOM
Mophus: Tiggy? Tiggy! Wow, that was some fireball, there's not even any smoking shoes left. Oh, wait...!
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Jan »

lord soth 75 wrote:When i play tonight my main priority will be locating a flask.These characters need to be healed urgently.
I'm still thinking about it and I'm afraid that the nearest one is at the start of the dungeon - in the
Spoiler
Supplies for the Quick
area or in the
Spoiler
Run and Jump
section. Dunno, perhaps there's one closer but I can't remember or you can be lucky and get one that is randomly distributed around.

Getting to the starting area of the dungeon, of course, is something very very difficult.

I don't know. I don't want to sound too defeatist but perhaps you would like to start again? :twisted: If only you had a save at the point where you defeated the starting worms.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by lord soth 75 »

@ Jan
Starting again isn't something i am planning (not yet anyway :) )
I'll have a good wander around when i play it tonight,and hopefully find my way back up to the 'Supplies for quick' area.

I'll also search this Dragons lair thoroughly,and also..try to make sense of that Mummy area (With all the wooden doors/portcullis gates/pressure plates)

The goal's for tonight.
1.Get back to 'Supplies for quick'
2.Find Flask
3.Heal party
4.Find a water source
5.General exploration/Figure out what the deal with the Mummy area is all about.

Im considering making some rudimentary maps too.I got a few sheets of graph paper.
Romero and Carmack NEED to re-group.Modern gaming needs to be saved from the greedy bastards who are ruining it all.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Trantor »

1. That's easier said than done. ;) Your best bet is probably to
Spoiler
go up, through the Antmen area, until you are in a very chaotic, huge room
and then
Spoiler
descend down again to another dragon - from there, you can get back to the Supplies for the Quick
.
2. Either follow 1. or go back to the Junction and try a different path, preferably Neta. See 5.
3. See 2.
4. See my previous post.
5. The mummy section isn't terribly important or exciting. You can, however, find a way back to the Junction there. If you find a stairway up with a seemingly dead-end and an Altar of Vi, you have found it. In order to reach the Junction again, you need to
Spoiler
put back what you found in that altar.


The Junction works in weird ways. If you go back there and re-enter the path you came from, you may end up in a different place. Try it a few times, you will enter new areas.
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by lord soth 75 »

Curly haired female wizard dying of thirst as an army of Jawa's unleash Fireball Fury!!!

Adventure Log#2

Thanks to the advice of Trantor,i was able to solve one of my problems.
I placed the Biter sword back on the altar,and found myself back at the Junction,where i chose a different path.
Was then re-united with my old friends 'The Screamers' (along with some of the big spiders)
I cleared that room of the critters,and stocked up on screamer slices.

Lack of food momentarily solved.

The lack of water however is reaching critical levels.

I went back to the KU way,and after battling a horde of annoying new creatures (Flying red things with teeth)in a room where i was warned not to use fireballs,I was given a harsh reminder of just how overpowered spellcasters are in this version of the game.

After killing a Death Knight,I was in an area that was filled with the little jawa wizards (Vexirks?).
There was freakin loads of them!!!!! I used magic boxes to freeze them....But,to no avail.There is too many of them and they can cast spells faster than me,and after 4 attempts..it seems like i need a new tactic to clear out that wizards den.

Thirst is at yellow level alert now for Tiggy.Unless she gets water soon,her adventuring days will soon be over. :(

I need to find a fountain.
Romero and Carmack NEED to re-group.Modern gaming needs to be saved from the greedy bastards who are ruining it all.
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Trantor
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Trantor »

Kill the Vexirks, and you will find your fountain. You can lure them into the "no fireballs" room where there spells will backfire onto them. Lunge forward, stab them with your weapons, retreat, and they will fry themselves. There are lots of them, but you will be rewarded with a fountain in that room.
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Ameena
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Ameena »

Urgh, you found the Muncher room (the little red flying crab thingys) - those mobs are so annoying 'cause they're so fast and poisonous. On the original Atari version, however, they were baically the equivalent of Giant Wasps and only needed one Lo-Fireball to kill (like Wasps). But because RTC makes them tougher, of course, they take a bit more than that.
Anyway, yeah, the Vexirks should be okay if you can find some room to manoeuvre. Or do what Trantor suggests - the "no Fireballs" section is pretty close to ther, if I recall. From where you seem to be in the dungeon, I'm guessing you now have a weapon called
Spoiler
"Executioner"
? It's pretty good - sort of like a more uber version of
Spoiler
Hardcleave
from DM. If you didn't find it yet, it's close, I'm sure...
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Ameena, self-declared Wordweaver, Beastmaker, Thoughtbringer, and great smegger of dungeon editing!
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Paul Stevens
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Paul Stevens »

Poison clouds wipe out the Munchers in bunches.
Unless RTC made modifications to that.
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Jan
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Re: Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

Post by Jan »

Lord Soth, if you're in real troubles and need healing and water immediately and can't defeat the Vexirks, I'll give you and advice on how to get to the "Base" area in a few moves. Read this only if you're totally desperate because it contains a real spoiler:
Spoiler
Turn back from the Vexirks' room and head directly through the "No Fireball" room to its opposite (north) end. In front of you there are three pits. One of them leads almost directly to the "Base". Save your game and jump into it. I think it's the pit to your left.
Finally playing and immensely enjoying the awesome Thimbleweed Park-a-reno!
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