Random CSB

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Paul Stevens
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Random CSB

Post by Paul Stevens »

Another thread has inspired me. I want to make
a "Random CSB".

This would be a "Deterministic" sort of random.
A config parameter would specify an initial random
seed and all randomness would take place before
the party took its first step. In this way, one could
produce a random dungeon and be able to identify
it in such a way that others could play the same
dungeon. "Say, has anyone tried CSB dungeon #45139?"

I would start as follows:

The four Corbum keys would be distributed at random
to a hundred or so places in the dungeon.

The three exits from each of the four "Ways" would
be randomly rearranged.

I would accept ideas (undoubtedly more clever than mine)
for additional random rearrangements of the dungeon.
These might include mixing up the triggers and effects,
moving false walls, changing monster types and
placements, changing required items to activate triggers,
and other, more-or-less evil, transmogrifications.

The randomizers need not be standard CSB mechanics since
I happen to have the CSBWin source code handy.

I will not attempt this without a few fellow conspirators.
Does anyone want to give this a go?
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Sophia
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Re: Random CSB

Post by Sophia »

Do you still want it to be recognizably CSB, or do you want a completely random dungeon?

I know Joramun has done quite a bit of impressive work in creating a (completely a priori) random dungeon generator for DSB.
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Seriously Unserious
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Re: Random CSB

Post by Seriously Unserious »

This sounds great. I'll see what maniacal ideas I can throw out there for you over the coming weeks.
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Paul Stevens
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Re: Random CSB

Post by Paul Stevens »

Do you still want it to be recognizably CSB
I do.
Same maze....with some exceptions.
Same trigger points....with some exceptions.
Same monsters....perhaps in strange places.
Same puzzles....perhaps mixed up a bit.
Same important items...perhaps misplaced.
Same Corbums. Same Ful Ya Pit.

But all the exceptions should appear as mistakes
in the CSB dungeon. I already have started to
implement a ranomization of the Four Ways
teleporters. They go the same places but they
are sometimes swapped.
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Chaos-Shaman
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Re: Random CSB

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

cool, very cool idea... if we can help
keep your gor coin handy
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Sphenx
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Re: Random CSB

Post by Sphenx »

Paul Stevens wrote: The four Corbum keys would be distributed at random
to a hundred or so places in the dungeon.
Player just has to decrypt the "Grynix" scroll with 4 different solutions to discover the 4 places of the keys! :twisted:
Or even the four way locks at the upper level (DDD) may be randomized ? I mean, for each passage at the DDD the 4 locks are randomized ! ahah! ...
Paul Stevens wrote: The three exits from each of the four "Ways" would
be randomly rearranged.
Can you explain more the idea ? I don't really see what you mean. Is it the way to reach each exit ?
Paul Stevens wrote:The randomizers need not be standard CSB mechanics since
I happen to have the CSBWin source code handy.
I really like how they use the dungeon mechanics to make some randomness (and the overuse of Gigglers!)
When I first played CSB seriously I started mapping the dungeon and was really disturbed to find myself in other parts of the dungeon after the four ways ... I believed there were 4 alternate dungeons! (then discovered later there were even 2 special parts for each way) Could it be possible to have a random dungeon actually containing 4 full dungeon in different versions were you sometimes warp to a version to another ... and were traps/monsters are misplaced or rearranged -- the 'mistakes' .. so that you never know in which 'dungeon' you are! .. too much ? :lol:
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Paul Stevens
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Re: Random CSB

Post by Paul Stevens »

Four different dungeons.

I always considered this to be the same dungeon in
four different eras. In other words, add time to the
dungeon maze. It is likely that the dungeon changed
a little bit over the millennia - add a wall here, repair
a pit there, fix a switch somewhere else. And the
junction becomes a time machine in addition to a
teleporter (a temporal transporter or 'TARDIS').

Doing this would require that three additional, identical
dungeons be built. A lot of work if done manually.
Then three dungeons would be modified
with 1000 years of modifications, then two with
an additional 1000 years of modifications, and finally
one with a total of 3000 years of evolution.

CSBWin has room for 63 levels, enough for four dungeons.

But I just talked with Sophia. I am currently of the opinion
that this project would be best undertaken using DSB.

If you want to use standard DM mechanics, it gets a lot
more difficult, in my opinion. For example, changing the
target of a teleporter becomes a challenge all by itself.
I thought that there would be enough challenge in modifying
the dungeon cleverly and keeping it consistent and 'dead-end'
free even if we built non-DM tools to do the modifications.

Now, as for the 'random rearrangement' of the teleporters
at the four ways. There are two teleporters at each exit.
I planned to swap each pair with a probability of 50 percent
so that a player who memorized their destinations would have
to do a bit of trial-and-error to discover the new arrangement.
Nothing difficult but perhaps annoying when combined with
dozens of other small changes to the dungeon. The final
goal: prevent those nine-minute runs through CSB.
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Sophia
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Re: Random CSB

Post by Sophia »

Use these:
CSB for DSB (if you have an old one, make sure there isn't an old compiled dungeon.dsb hanging around either)
Updated DSB.exe (exe only, you'll still need a distribution of DSB 0.57)

CSB should run now. I am not sure if it handles CSB 100% accurately (it uses a lot of clever little tricks that I'm not sure if DSB handles in exactly the same way, like the giggler randomizer) but if there are other bugs in the dungeon, then hopefully we'll be able to solve them.
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Paul Stevens
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Re: Random CSB

Post by Paul Stevens »

Very nice. I have not used DSB for a long time.
It is smooth and responsive.

What do we do about deviations of your CSB dungeon
from the original? The very fist step I took uncovered
an error. There were four worms instead of three.
I suspect that you placed me on the pad as I entered
the dungeon and triggered a generator. But I don't know
that is the problem.

Also, the first time I entered the dungeon, I could not open
the false wall with the torch. Subsequently, it has worked OK.

Should we have a separate thread for suspected errors
in the CSB dungeon? I looked at these with ESB but
I am afraid I have some learning to do.
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Sophia
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Re: Random CSB

Post by Sophia »

Paul Stevens wrote:There were four worms instead of three.
The issue here is that DSB CSB contains the entire dungeon+prison in a single file. This means that the main dungeon is "alive" even while you are running around the prison, so by the time you get into the main dungeon, the worms might have moved. I've placed some monster blockers to keep them in place that go down as soon as you end up on the start square.
Paul Stevens wrote:I could not open the false wall with the torch.
This is actually an issue with opbys. The DSB version of the sconce works like any other wallitem, instead of only processing a "click" when you're actually putting in a torch. Fortunately, this behavior is easy to change with a bit of a quick Lua hack.
Paul Stevens wrote:Should we have a separate thread for suspected errors in the CSB dungeon?
It's up to you.
As long as I know where to look, I can fix them. :)

Anyway, here's updated CSB for DSB with these issues fixed.
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Paul Stevens
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Re: Random CSB

Post by Paul Stevens »

Thank you. That seems to work perfectly.

In the Atari version, a level is not 'Active' until
the party first visits it. The Giggler randomizers,
in particular, do not run until the party visits that
level of the dungeon. Off the top of my head, I
cannot see that this is critical to a proper dungeon.
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