Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Discuss Chaos Strikes Back, the "expansion pack" for Dungeon Master.
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luke41
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Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by luke41 »

After finishing DM with 2 Champions (Elija & Gothmog, reincarnated), and then with those two finishing CSB, now I am trying doing this with only one champion - Gothmog.
After 10 days I finished DM. I forgot to add, that in DM I have always one important rule: never use a spell before I learned it from a scroll (it means, until level 6 - no FUL IR...).
DM with Gothmog was okay, a lot of food, to much weapons and armors (though I always wear leather fashion, all these metal stuff is too heavy). Only twice I was really in a problem situation: First, I almost starved in the level with water elementals (because before, in the scorpion-level, I spend too much food training my wizard & priest skills!...). But the cheese in the middle way saved me - though I hate water elementals here... The second tough place was Chaos - I finished DM bevore 3 times, but this time it was the hardest to get him into a fluxcage and fuse in right time. Even with super-strong dexterity potion... Here was another problem: Going down to the dragon level, I opened this door with "E" - and after that my "basic way" was closed forever, including almost all my possesions stored there (poison potions, ful bombs, magic boxes...).
But now Chaos Stikes Back - with Gothmog. I hope it will be fun. Especially since my CSB-adventure with two characters and DM with one I learn more and more that there are often many ways to solve a problem, thats great in this games. And that you dont have to enter all rooms, to kill all monsters, to take all objects. I suppose in CSB with one champion it will be necessary to find "special solutions" in some cases. On the other hand - there will be a lot of food, once I have killed all dragons. (In my last CSB game I had enough dragon meat and hound-meat to open a butchers shop!)
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Jan »

Good luck there! :D

I always play DM and CSB with one character only - the last time it was reincarnated Chani. In some areas you'll encounter problems with too low total mana / firepower - I remember particularly the "wormflood" on the FUL YA level which I only finished once in my life with a single character and it was a result of luck, not my skill. But the biggest problem is the low carrying capacity - in CSB you have to carry (well, you don't have to, but I usually do) a lot of keys, coins, gems etc. which you only can carry in the heavy chests, so I usually find the problem of carrying capacity and inventory space as the most serious one.
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by luke41 »

Thanks,

The worm-flood-room: It was even very hard with 2 champions (combination of prepared ful bombs, swords, and magic boxes). But, as far as I remember - after killing all worms (and standing in their "birth"-place), I just returned back (climbing down nearby where the demons used to be), because I did not want the new worms to spill over to the whole level (the door opens when you take the sword from the niche, but doest close any more!...) - because once I left the corner they started reproducing again!... Moreover: is there any need to enter this "worm-flood-room"?? Any important key or item?
I just went back and later entered this level from other side.

@ Carry: I try to organize things. Some chests (2-3), enough food & water to go there and back few times (to the level with many flames), which becomes my "base".
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Jan »

As for the worm flood, I'm not exactly sure - I think that stepping on the "birth place" ( :D ) should turn off the generator, but now I'm not sure whether stepping off the plate turns it back on. This is the part of the dungeon that I don't know very well. :wink: Anyway, the price here is the sword, which is the best sword in the game. There's nothing else there, and there's nothing vitally important. It's one of the places where you end up when you don't do the things as well as you should or, in this case, don't have the right object on you.

In fact, I usually go to the FUL YA level once in the game only, at the end when I have all the four CORBUMS, and I usually take the DAIN path which seems the easiest one on that level. But of course sometimes I make a "proper" go and use all four FUL YA ways, always carrying one CORBUM to the pit at a time - boy, it's bl**dy hard with only one character and all those deamons and worms and Zytaxes crawling around! :shock:

As for the "base", I always have two - one in the "To the JoW" area (below the Supplies for the Quick) - between the fountain and the teleporter to the JoW. It's my main base. The other I have below the DDD - more precisely under the stairs to the DDD or, alternatively, behind the door in that small room with a fountain and the "coin-slot-machine". In fact, I always just hoard my stuff there and never use anything from it, so it's completely useless, but it gives me the feeling that I'm playing the game "properly". :wink:
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Paul Stevens »

I always take the route through the 'Worm Flood Room' last.
I carry a 'Boulder' so that I can get into the room before
the worms have had time to generate. Then I run to
the FUl Ya pit with my four 'B-Keys' without encountering
any monsters whatsoever.

Sometimes I have to run around Chaos.
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by luke41 »

@ Paul: Wow, never heard of that "boulder"-trick!!!

So far I have finished three ways starting from DDD, as I wrote in another topic the DAIN way was the hardest: Especially ti get thru the "ghost room" with new and new raves, then thru to the couatl-room!... A real "management" of carrying some weapons (ful bombs, dispell-sticks, poison bombs) and being able to spell some attacking stuff like ful ir or the spell against non-material... But I did it - funny, without (for the first time) entering the lower room with water elementals (a pity, it is so funny to see them falling into the pits).
And again no way to overcome the room with raves and water elementals in the south-west of level 6!...
But - training skills I managed to kill the dragon below DDD, and one time to get rid of ALL creatures in DDD (stone piles, demons, flames).
I have already three corbums - collected in front of the DDD. Besides, I callected there maybe 10 iron keys and 10 other keys I never used, and tons of dragon meat (it is too boring to practice skills so long as my food is consumed)...
Funny - when fighting in the DDD, on the way to the upper DAIN level, it happened to me that I have frozen a demon in front of me - and there was a second demon behind him. (Not frozen, surprisingly - maybe he just came over teleported?) So the second demon saw me - and started throwing ful bombs - hitting the coor colleague of him in front... :-)

OK, today I will try to make the last way from DDD - with the open pit which cannot be opened only by killing a catched skeleton downstairs or so...
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Jan »

"Funny - when fighting in the DDD, on the way to the upper DAIN level, it happened to me that I have frozen a demon in front of me - and there was a second demon behind him. (Not frozen, surprisingly - maybe he just came over teleported?) So the second demon saw me - and started throwing ful bombs - hitting the coor colleague of him in front... :-)"

Interesting... I've never wintessed that. Maybe Paul could explain it. Which version of CSB are you playing, by the way?

"And again no way to overcome the room with raves and water elementals in the south-west of level 6!..."

You can easily kill most of them without even entering that room - have you solved the "antman puzzle" behind the "laughing pit" area?
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by luke41 »

Hi,

The "antman"-puzzle: I suppose you mean the corridor where one can see thru the wall, and pressing the green button kill the water elementals and raves behind.
I tried this as well. First, after several "shots" it stopped working. Then I looked thru the wall: there were still some creatures there, but not many. Then quickly to that way: and already in the corridor (with the many doors one can open with bombs) there were about 5-6 raves, I managed to kill them - and in the rood (surprise surprise!) there were so many that there was no room to step in. With freezing and still some magic power I could kill some and almost made it to the one corner - and then my magic boxes were done, no magic power, not even a way to fly back - it's the end of the game as I know it...

By the time I finished the game, as usual after the riddle with the open pit was solved, it was very quick. Then to Chaos with all 4 corbums, a little work killing all those demons, some worms and one zytaz (only!... - maybe because this time I carried some special items with me like a crown) in "Chaos' waiting room" - and there was the master key, the way was open. Funny, this time I didnt even met Chaos on the way to the last pit (in a game before, when playing with 2 champs, I met him - but freezing once was enough). So this was my first CSB-victory without even meeting him... :-)
At the end it is always funny in CSB how many unused items (weapons, tons of meat, 10-15 keys) I collected at the entrance to DDD - it is always this bad bad habit...

I am playing "CSBwin12_100.exe" (starting via Wine-Emulator on Linux).

Now I will again make some weeks break, and then will try another missions:
- finishing DM & CSB with the physically weakest champ (Tiggy? Boris?)
- with the magic-most-untalented champ (Hulk? Darou? Hissa?)
- with only 2 and only 1 original CSB-champs from the CSB-prision (though I must admit I stick somehow to the good old - and trained! - DM champs...

And one more goal: My little daughter started playing DM - of course choosing 4 girls as their team. I support her a little, but she did already the first level! The worst thing for her are not the monsters, but to imagine that one of her girls can eat munchers pieces!...
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Paul Stevens »

I am playing "CSBwin12_100.exe" (starting via Wine-Emulator on Linux).
Would you like to try a native linux version? These work on
Raspbian (Raspberry pi) and on Ubuntu 12.04 and 14.04.

http://www.dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/CSB ... 51202-1230
http://www.dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/CSB ... 51201-2133

If you do try, let me know the results.
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by luke41 »

Hi Paul,

It will be a pleasure to try it out directly unter Linux. Any comments or questions I will post under another topic here ("CSB under Linux"), ok?
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Jan »

"The "antman"-puzzle: I suppose you mean the corridor where one can see thru the wall, and pressing the green button kill the water elementals and raves behind."

Yeah, I mean this, and you did the right thing. The shooter doesn't kill all the monsters and it has limited "ammo" but should kill most of the creatures.

"I tried this as well. First, after several "shots" it stopped working. Then I looked thru the wall: there were still some creatures there, but not many. Then quickly to that way: and already in the corridor (with the many doors one can open with bombs) there were about 5-6 raves, I managed to kill them - and in the rood (surprise surprise!) there were so many that there was no room to step in. With freezing and still some magic power I could kill some and almost made it to the one corner - and then my magic boxes were done, no magic power, not even a way to fly back - it's the end of the game as I know it..."

Don't step into the room! Fight the monsters from the corridor (entrance)! In this way, you will always face only one monster / group of monsters and kill them one by one. Don't waste your mana on anti-ghost spells - use the vorpal blade and save your mana on VI potions. In this way, get rid of all the monsters face-to-face and only then step in the room. The number of monsters there is finite and they don't regenerate (or at least not quickly) so once you kill them all you're safe. If you encounter anyone else, flee back to the corridor (entrance).

"At the end it is always funny in CSB how many unused items (weapons, tons of meat, 10-15 keys) I collected at the entrance to DDD - it is always this bad bad habit..."

Yup, it's the same with me. :wink:

Congratulations on finishing the game! Keep us informed on your further progress with those nice little tasks you've prepared there. :) Nice to hear about your daughter too! :D How old is she? Erm, and wait till she finds out where do the "drumsticks" come from. :wink:
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by luke41 »

Hi Jan,

thanks for the advice about NOT stepping in the room with raves! Unfortunately the only vorpal blade I usually find is BEHIND this room - in the ghost/fireball room in the niche...
I sometimes use some sticks to fight non-materials. The problem with this part of the dungeon is, that actually you can retreat from the corridor, but somewhere on the way there is a trigger which regenerates some new non-materials.
Of course I could spend some hours training my mana (as you know, I collected tons of meat and water is there too... in the "Gasthaus zum DDD" as I call it), so I could fire 5 or 8 strongest DES EW-spells in a row - but that is boring.

My daughter is 7 now - so it will take time until she discovers about the drumsticks...
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Paul Stevens »

the only vorpal blade I usually find
Then go for the 'unusual'! ;-)

Supplies for the quick. It is worth the two iron
keys. Of course, this being CSB, you can get there
multiple ways without keys.

The Vorpal blade is behind a fake wall, down
a dead-end corridor, opposite a wall recess.
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Jan »

Oh, I didn't realise that you were without any vorpal blade! Mein Gott, then you're one of the bravest CSB warriors! I've been playing CSB for so long and know it backwards so I tend to forget how difficult it is to get the first Vorpal blade (for someone who doesn't know its location) ... or the first flask, as a matter of fact...

"Gasthaus zum DDD" :D
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by luke41 »

Hi Jan,

Thanks! :-)
However: In Poland we use to say "lack of knowledge is not courage, it is idiocy"...
Really, only now I start discovering the sense and idea of "war cry", "calm", "brandish", etc. - the "soft" weapons in DM & CSB.
What is "disrupt" really? Like "brandish" just stronger?
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Ameena »

Disrupt is the strongest attack on the Vorpal Blade, it's just a way of hitting things harder (like using Chop on a falchion or Berserk on Executioner). It's probably called "Disrupt" because Vorpal Blades are designed to destroy non-material beings, thus the attacks disrupt their erm, non-material-ness ;).
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by luke41 »

You mean, when fighting "materials" DISRUPT is a very-very strong hit. But at the same time I can user DISRUPT as a "hard-hard"-hit, similar (stronger?) than DISPELL, to fight "no-materials"? Is then DISRUPT finite (like DISPELL in some sticks), or infinite?
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Ameena »

No, it's infinite. It's just the strongest attack a Vorpal Blade has, but because of the differing nature of the Vorpal Blades from other swords (ie they can harm non-materials), it has a more appropriate-sounding name. You can use any Vorpal Blade attack and they will harm anything, as opposed to the other weapons which will only harm physical creatures. I remember testing a dungeon I was building once, taking a maxed-out character round it to make sure the mechanics worked, and giving them a Vorpal Blade with which they were one-shotting every creature with just the Jab attack :D.
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Jan »

I'm getting lost now. :)

Vorpal Blade can be used against both material and non-material beings. The attacks on it however are very weak against material creatures and thus it's just an "emergency" weapon that you use if you get attacked and don't have anything else at hand. So it's usually only used against non-material beings and the strength of its attacks rises from Jab to Disrupt, i.e. Disrupt is the strongest attack. It's infinite in the sense that you can use it as many times as you want and it never gest "exhausted".

I'm unable to compare the strength of Disrupt on Vorpal Blade with various anti-non-material spells, maybe someone else would help here. Of course Disrupt depends on the character that uses it. Personally I would say that Disrupt is weaker than the strongest spells but on the other hand it is "infinite" as you say and uses no mana. I always use Vorpal Blade against non-materials (if I have one), never spells. Plus it adds 4 points of mana to the charater having it in hand.

EDIT: No, Ameena was faster again! I can never win here! That's not fair! :P
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Saumun »

I have a question... Which stat (if any) directly influences the hitting power of the vorpal blade?

I've always found increasing stats through potions makes little or no difference to how hard the blade hits.
The one oddball here is RTC, where ramping up your wisdom with dane potions hugely increases the vorpal's hits (to the point of being able to one-shot most non-mats). I have never found this in any other version, so am assuming this is some kind of flaw.
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Jan »

I was just going to ask the same question... I hope Paul or Christophe or anyone would be able to shed some light on it. My guess would be some combination of strength / fighter power and wisdom / wizard power.
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Paul Stevens »

A quick glance at the code reveals that there are two cases:

1) Material being _OR_ Vorpal blade
2) non-Material _AND_ not Vorpal blade.

So the case you are interested in (case 1) applies the same
logic to (for example) :
a) Axe attack on Coatl
b) Disrupt attack on Rive

Nothing very special.....A Vorpal blade against non-material
is the same as any other weapon against material. A Vorpal
against material beings appears to have its effect halved.

I may have missed some subtleties. I did not study the code.
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Saumun »

I just tried it on the Amiga version in WINuae, using Ku potions to get my strength up to around 160-170 and attacking a black flame with the vorpal blade in CSB.

It did indeed seem to hit harder. Not with every try, but some hits were around the 100 mark. Had to make a lot of potions to get there though, so probably doesn't warrant the effort.
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Ameena »

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is that using a Vorpal Blade levels up your Wizard skill, not your Fighter or Ninja skills as other melée weapons do (well okay, they're mostly Fighter-bse but I''m pretty sure daggers give Ninja exp). So maybe it's one of the more magic-based stats that determines the damage? I have no idea as I've never bothered looking in detail at any numbers or anything like that, I'm just guessing based on logic ;).
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Saumun »

Yep,,, I gained a wizard level while doing that little test in WINuae, but increased wisdom (with potions) didn't make it hit any harder. It does in RTC though.
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by awakeningcry »

I seem to remember using Hissssa when I chose to complete the game with just one character. I've always played using CSB For Windows though, so when you encounter your first Screamer, it's very easy to gain Priest levels simply by using War Cry on the bugger.
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by awakeningcry »

Ameena wrote:Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is that using a Vorpal Blade levels up your Wizard skill, not your Fighter or Ninja skills as other melée weapons do (well okay, they're mostly Fighter-bse but I''m pretty sure daggers give Ninja exp). So maybe it's one of the more magic-based stats that determines the damage? I have no idea as I've never bothered looking in detail at any numbers or anything like that, I'm just guessing based on logic ;).
Yes, "stab" with a dagger increases your Ninja skill. However at the start of DM, I prefer to punch and kick my way through, because that way I get hurt a lot more, thereby gaining Fighter experience.

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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Ameena »

Punching and kicking gives Ninja exp, if I remember rightly. And yes, the weak but very quick attacks on weapons (such as daggers) also give that. I think, however, that "Jab" gives Fighter exp and that is true also on Vorpal Blades, where "Cleave" also gives Fighter exp and "Disrupt" is the only attack that levels up your Wizzy skill. All three attacks, however, are good against non-material beings :).
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Re: Chaos strikes back - with one Champion

Post by Saumun »

I did a similar thing to awakeningcry when playing Qwerty's SNES port of DM for DSB. I went from the start until the screamer room using only punches against monsters.... and reached artisan fighter without ever using a weapon (Solo Hissssa).
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