What do you like/dislike about DM2 compared to original DM?

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Gambit37
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What do you like/dislike about DM2 compared to original DM?

Post by Gambit37 »

We've never really had a good centralised discussion about what we like/dislike about DM2 compared to DM/CSB.

I'll start with a few off the top of my head -- not exhaustive by any means!

LIKED
Multiple environments (outdoor/underground/castle/shops etc.)
Weather effects
Incidental Music
Cool new spells & useful minions
Better magic maps
Better animated monsters and monsters no longer constrained to moving in tile boundaries.

DISLIKED
The annoying 'half-step' animation as it wasn't smooth enough.
Enemy minions constant respawning
The cartoon style images of the PC version
Keeping the machine working to open the Zo gate
Shops (nice idea, just don't like the implementation)
Way too short and generally too easy

On the whole I was disappointed with DM2. It's a bit of a contradiction, but I think it neither added enough to make things fresh nor was pure enough to satisfy the die-hard DM freaks.

FTL tried to deliver a product appealing to different audiences and failed in my opinion. It also didn't help that the timing was really bad -- by the time it came out in the USA and Europe, Doom had landed and the whole gaming landscape had changed.

It's easy to see with hindsight how things could have been different, but FTL would have been better off making DM2 much earlier instead of wasting several years porting DM to all those other platforms (although admittedly, the Asian ports did make them a *ton* of money).
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Post by Trantor »

I feel exactly like you Gambit - not different enough to be really new and exciting, not close enough to recreate the magic of DM.

Stuff I liked:
+ different environments
+ background music (though it wasn't that great)

Stuff I disliked:
- bady implemented shops
- too small
- minions and other monsters spawning WAY too quickly
- still no plot during the game or NPCs to interact with (shopkeepers don't count)
- terribly-looking monsters (referring to the PC version; Amiga was better, but still not on par with DM1)
- annoying half-step movements that made orientation much harder
- boring dungeon-design with just a few good puzzles
- the whole SF-/techno-thing felt horribly out of place

In all the years since I first layed hands on DM in 1991, the game and its true sequel CSB stayed with me. Every few months, I'd dust off my Amiga and play those games again, and again, and again (until I got here, which meant I wouldn't need to use my Amiga anymore). I completely forgot about DM2 after I played through it once. When it was integrated into RTC, I tried it again, but I still think it's just boring compared to DM1 and CSB.
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Post by Sophia »

Yes, the "DISLIKED" list is much longer. I don't think I need to tell you my overall feeling... ;)

LIKED
:arrow: The techno/fantasy theme.
I guess I totally diverge from Trantor, here. I actually liked this part of DM2 a lot. It gave the sense that some time had passed in the land, and that things were different.

:arrow: Different wallsets
They added variety!

DISLIKED
:arrow: The half-step
This was just a bad idea!

:arrow: Everything was too dark
With the rather dark outdoor locale, and the rain overlayed on top of that, the game started to look... well, it was hard to tell what was going on. Of course, I disliked this in general...

:arrow: The outdoor locations
To me a game called "Dungeon Master" should take place inside of a dungeon.

:arrow: Shops and a horribly contrived money system
If you're going to have a money system, the money box should just display a number, or something. Having to fumble around with money was a pain... not that I even liked a "money" system in a DM game anyway. Fighting monsters to earn money to buy stuff is for CRPGs. DM felt like something else, and I liked that.

:arrow: The Interface
The actual DM2 interface with its language-independent icon system, weird two-handed attacks, and such, just confused and annoyed me.

:arrow: The music
I liked the idea of some background music in DM. I just didn't like the selections that were actually used.

:arrow: Graphics (PC: Monsters/Amiga: Scenery)
The monster graphics in the PC version looked un-DM and silly. The Amiga version did better, but some of the other graphics didn't look very good trying to reduce them to 16 colors. Considering all Amigas supported EHB (64 colors) and many supported AGA (256+ colors) by the time DM2 came out, I'm not sure why they even kept it to 16 at all...
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Post by beowuuf »

LIKED:
Outdoors (sorry Sophia!) - it made it feel more free even if it was the same steps
Monster AI (monsters weren't always killers and could use itemsand had special abilities)
More wallitem/flooritems types you could interract with.
Shops - nice idea, I liked it! Screw you all!
The varied locations

NEUTRAL:
The inventory in dungeon management - picking up any items you wished in a pile, activating chests etc - cool idea, fun to use, added to the realism but was sometimes annoying when you didn't click in the right place

DISLIKED:
Inventory management - removing the action hand to do anything inventory was a pain. The confusing inventory was indeeed annoying
Spell management - as above
Too easy - many reasons for this, the amount of damage you could pile on with two weapons, the amount of experience you gained so fast in the game, and the general ease of the game one or two puzzles aside
Cartoon-y graphics. The environments were nice, the monsters less so.
ENEMY ATTACK MINIONS! Why time limit an exporation game and create a punishment that hits you when it is far, far, far, far too late to do anythign about it and is a continuous game spoiling punishment

Basically before RTC really took off I had even day dreamed and created lots of notes in a paper notepad about a DM2 like game , except much, much larger. Sadly, it won't see the light of day, at best i started a book based on the ideas that has a tiny chance of being seen one day.
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Post by Gambit37 »

I agree about the inventory, I never did quite get the hang of it. In fact, I've played DM2 so little I'm not even sure what it was that I disliked about it!

As for the monster AI -- it was definitely an improvement over the old and the longest part of the development -- but we only really know this because we were told so by FTL. How many of us would have actually noticed how advanced it was through normal gameplay?

Very interesting point there Beo: Why time limit an exploration game? I never thought of it that way. I saw it from a different view: FTL ran out of time and couldn't get more scenario in there (Interplay were very unhappy they were so late with it despite ORDERING them to improve the graphics for the PC version), so they faked some extended gameplay by simply throwing more shit at you.
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Post by Black Eagle »

same as above really. what i mainly disliked was the semi-modern approach, with the ideas of machines and mechanical eyes and so on. i like mine to stay mediaeval!!
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Post by beowuuf »

Yeah, the mix of tech and old i quite like for the most part!
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Post by zoom »

well, what can you add? Interesting to read. I agree with most
(on the fly list)
Liked:
the unique monster with many hps in the cave level
felt like a boss monster. I liked that.

New monsters. just a new DM to explore.
Dinosaurs. cool monster, friendly at first.
you needed that steak. You were hungry
and wanted to sell the steak at the same
time! was good

the tower and the final part had climax.
You felt like progressing.

after reading it here on the forum :
the monster behaviour seems very interesting

some puzzles were ok. Two doors, open in time and
fry monsters.. I think before entering the Temple?

Shops in itself were cool. Different shopkeeper were cool.
Iam all on Beo's side here. but read below (there is always a "but" ;) )


neutral:
Some puzzles worked over several levels,
and the Portal one was the only real stopper for
my rushing through the game. I don't remember it, b
ut didn't like it back then. So neutrality for potential.


Somehow the dark sci fi turned me off.
Sci-fi is not that bad after a second thought.
Wizardry VII was great with that aspect..

Bad:
Too easy,
because finding secrets was not needed at all.
Secrets were even made totally useless due to the shops.
You could simply buy every best things in game in a
shop by collecting axes. This made DM2 bereft of its depth.

You could eat right at the start some plants that gave you
in minutes archmaster ranks. Hello?
I never was sure what came after Mon Master...
RIdiculous and spoiling

THorham. Why must you have him in the party? He had good
stats, but it somehow felt like being cheated.

As said the respawning drones annoyed.

and last but not least:
I felt items were not really balanced.
This could be part due to the centeredness
of the game around the shoppes and scarceness of
secrets and small, zone like , level sizes.
too high bonusses.
It did not feel special buying a Vorax...
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Post by Bit »

So long ago, I hardly remember (and that means that the game didn't made it to my heart - today I still know how to solve the puzzles of DM...)
But yes - most annoying was this ever respawning UFO, or eye, or whatever that should be...
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Post by Toni Y »

I'm probably the only one who liked the half-step :P
My only gripe about it was that it was implemented the "wrong way", since it zoomed in to the original view instead of using the next view for the zoom.
You'd get better quality.

Anyway, for the main list:

Likes
* different environments and weather (and it was never too dark for my liking)
* shops (although they made it even easier, so I guess I like the idea, but...)
* money system (recording just a number as someone suggested would've made it even less DM like IMO, and it made all those gold coins actually worth something instead of just puzzle items :P), haggling was fun too, and bartering, but I wish you could've also just paid by giving the money box to the shopkeeper, like you could to convert the money to higher nominators.
* Improved graphics for environments and some items.

Dislikes
* MINIONS
* Cartoony creatures and many items
* MINIONS
* Too easy
* MINIONS
* Too short (although it's almost same area as DM, it's much shorter since most areas are just pass-through... It's like the cavern level in DM most of the time you're outdoors, although even more empty!)
* Did I mention minions yet?
* I'm not huge fan of the tech-theme, but it's not a huge point, unlike, say the MINIONS!
* The interface with everything competing for space inside the party-order-square. If they ran out of room there, get rid of the arrows since no serious player uses them, not the bloody separate magic box! Not that you needed combat spells because the game was so easy...
* And finally, I'd like to mention MINIONS just one more time... God those are annoying. Guard minions sure, but the attack minions, ugh. They're like mosquitos. Not dangerous alone, and barely dangerous in swarms, but SO annoying!
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Post by beowuuf »

Toni Y wrote:I wish you could've also just paid by giving the money box to the shopkeeper
I think RTC does this
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Post by Christopher »

Without reading everyone else's response first, here's my list.
Likes:
Minions - Having twenty of your attack minions attacking twenty of Dragoth's attack minions and being in the middle of all that chaos is quite enjoyable. I'm guessing I'm one of the few who never got tired of them.

Music - Not much to say here. I liked the music in this and the occasional music in SNES DM as well. Spent plenty of time playing the void (Dragoth's) theme on my drum set. A lot of fun.

Shops - Sure it's nice to be rewarded with some items now and again, but being able to buy and sell stuff throughout the game was a nice touch.

Special mechanics - Lightning strikes, evil minions turning into archer guards, Axemen jumping out of trees...

Terrain - Getting out of a dungeon is nice to do even if the game is called Dungeon Master. Exploring caves and a tower and other areas was interesting.

Monsters - Although not nearly enough, there were neat additions and a few of the old good ones. Dru-Tan, vexirks, mummies, all good new and old monsters.

Some of the new spells - Sure it meant memorizing some new rune combinations for me, but having a reflect spell, and accelerate party spell is a nice addition, not to mention the minions, push, and pull.

Dislikes:
Lack of difficulty - One of the easiest games I have ever played. It was way too easy.

Size - So small. If I can get from any part of the map to any other part of the map in a minute's time, you know it's a small game.

Stuck with Torham - Need I type more?

Inability to reincarnate - One of the things I missed having. At least you could rename the characters still.

Lack of puzzles - Can fit in with ease of the game. This game missed having puzzles like it missed having a dragon.

After all this, I still find this game very enjoyable and would play it again if I could. Now to read what everyone else wrote.
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Post by Ian Clark »

Like

Different areas. Exploring the outside was pretty good as was the idea of going up a tower rather than down into a dungeon. Had a slight EOB feel to it.

Monster AI. The monsters seem to have the ability to sidestep fireballs/arrows etc just like the party can.

Puzzles spread over multiple levels

Tile sharing - you can walk right through a ghostly creature!



Neutral

Shops - I like the idea of buying items, trying them out, selling them back and trying something else. However, practically anything you can find in the dungeon can be bought in a shop so it undermines the idea of finding treasure and makes some of the battles less rewarding.

Music - it's neither good nor bad in my opinion. I could live without it.



Dislike

PC Monster graphics

Minions - extremely annoying, they should have been replaced with some more monsters, even some more DM monsters could have been redesigned for this game; a couple of beholders or demons would have been pretty cool!

The graphic interface - it isn't always obvious what it means i.e. when you fail to cast a spell you get a symbol rather than a line of text like you did in DM
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Post by Toni Y »

Forget I said anything about shops.... :roll:

Image

Well, okay, maybe not everything I said... The shops are fun, but they're way too cheap. You run out of things worth buying in the first couple hours of play, even if you don't farm enemies, and after that if you sell everything you don't need... Well, that screenshot should speak for itself :P

(In case you wonder Torham and Cletus are holding the staves and Graen and Anders the weapons, I was doing my Patented Cross Training Exercise Method... For same amount of effort it takes to get two characters to master, you can get all four to expert, which is an order of magnitude difference for back-row survivability :P (By now everyone was expert fighters, wizards and priests with over 300 hps each and 100 mana each before items... And yet I still had enormous trouble with the end boss. I must be getting old.))
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Post by ian_scho »

...Cross Training Exercise...
Go on...
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Post by beowuuf »

I thinking more than that - he sticks the fighters in the bavk row with da spells and the mages i da front row with da shiny weapons
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Post by ian_scho »

does he cross dress them as well?!
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Post by beowuuf »

Hopefully, it will give them a tactical advantage :D
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Post by Toni Y »

beowuuf wrote:I thinking more than that - he sticks the fighters in the bavk row with da spells and the mages i da front row with da shiny weapons
Aye, that's exactly right.
ian_scho wrote:does he cross dress them as well?!
Yes, I do... :lol:

(I swap the armour to the mages and light clothes to the fighters while they're swapping roles :P)
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Post by Gambit37 »

beowuuf wrote:I thinking more than that - he sticks the fighters in the back row with da spells and the mages in da front row with da shiny weapons
I need new spectacles. I thought that said "fingers", not "fighters"...
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Post by Adamo »

Being as lazy as I am, I just copied and pasted your thoughts to my likes/dislikes list. Don`t want to write it again ;)

Disliked:
- The half-step. This was just a bad idea!
- The outdoor locations. To me a game called "Dungeon Master" should take place inside of a dungeon.
YES! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH SOPHIA. That destroyed the whole climate of a game.
- Shops and a horribly contrived money system
- The Interface
- Graphics (PC: Monsters/Amiga: Scenery)
- Way too short and generally too easy.
- Too easy, because finding secrets was not needed at all.
- MINIONS
- the whole SF-/techno-thing felt horribly out of place
- Spell management
- THorham. Why must you have him in the party?
- I felt items were not really balanced.
- Inability to reincarnate
- lack of puzzles

Likes:
- Monster AI highly improved (as I know, some nonexistence in DM/CSB functions implemented).
- Different wallsets. They added variety!
- New possible functions when building a dungeon (splicing levels etc).
- new, improved light system (Burning torches on the walls gave you light, wchich decreased by each step)
- next(fourth) "view range" instead of three in DM/CSB. I LOVE THAT!


reasuming: too many changes for the worst.
On the other hand, they had far more functions in DM2 comparing to the first part.. .. and they failed.. With such editor they had, THIS COULD BE A REALLY GREAT GAME!

FTL, please give us DM2 editor so we could use it better!
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Post by purple1 »

Toni Y wrote:
ian_scho wrote:does he cross dress them as well?!
Yes, I do... :lol:

(I swap the armour to the mages and light clothes to the fighters while they're swapping roles :P)
Too bad DM2 doesn't have all the female clothing from the original games... I wanted to make Torham wear a skimpy top to complement his wimpy girl stats.
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Post by Trantor »

Adamo wrote:reasuming: too many changes for the worst.
On the other hand, they had far more functions in DM2 comparing to the first part.. .. and they failed.. With such editor they had, THIS COULD BE A REALLY GREAT GAME!

FTL, please give us DM2 editor so we could use it better!
Ignoring the fact that FTL releasing a full DM2 editor is about as likely as Daroou donning some of his fur in order to provide a wig for Mophus, I don't think there is a need for that. As you said, there were too many changes that made the game worse. I have the impression that its new features made the game too complex for its own good, because sometimes, less is more. DM1 (and CSB) were nearly perfect as far as real-time dungeon crawling is concerned, and I actually think that even well-meant enhancements on that engine were doomed almost regardless of what exactly they were.
This is certainly not the only problem of DM2, numerous other reasons are stated above. But I really wonder whether DM2 actually had any chances to compete with DM1 to begin with considering DM1's near-perfection.
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Post by Seriously Unserious »

Overall DM2 (the rts version) was good. Not quite on a level with dm/csb for replayability but still good.

Liked:

Shops - being able to sell extra items when you no longer need them and having to find the money to buy newer and better weapons and armor was a nice touch. However, the prices for selling items could have been lower and for buying higher to make things more challenging.

Monsters - these were an improvement over the classic dm monsters overall, with 1 or 2 exceptions.( like, say, the minions)

Quivers -- these handy items made the bows actually a useful weapon. 5 shots just isn't nearly enough to be of much use against many monsters after about the 1st or 2nd level (or equivalent)

Lighting - the improved lighting effects really put you in the game in a way that just wasn't possible before.

multiple environments -- I liked this touch, it gave the game extra variety

Disliked:

Lighting level - the lighting levels are just too low to see clearly, especially when it starts raining out, that got just plain horrible at times.

Minions -- those monters were just so annoying, and shooting lightning bolts that do major damage to your party from a monster that's so common is just plain cruel and annoying. Did I mention that those things were annoying as hell? Well they were.

Shop Prices -- prices for buying were too low and selling too high, this needed to be balanced better.

Music - although the music wasn't bad music, sound is so important a clue in this game but the music drowns out important sounds, like the click of that trap about to fry you to that thorn demon sneaking up behind you. Music in certain areas like in at a shop (such at the tavern) would have been okay by adding atmosphere but not music everywhere!

too small - just as I start to get into the game I'm near the end, that's just not right.

too much wandering around the same places over and over again - the is also a part of the game being too small but this seemed like a feeble attempt at making up for the lack of size by making you go back and forth over the same places so many times.

Overall I agree with most of what the others had to say about the game, especially that guy who mentioned dislikeing the minions about 506 times. :P

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Post by Erik Bauer »

Things I liked:

- New monsters
- Different environments
- Shops, both the idea and the implementation (Very DM style)
- Weather
- Finally Fireballs and Lightnings cast proper light!
- Some puzzle were very good and original
- New spells!
- Finally you can use both hands at full!



Things I disliked
- Background music: even if it was good and appropriate i find DM should be played with just Sound FX and NO music
- Gfx style: even if the Amiga version was less cartoonish thant he PC one, I find the original GFX style much more appropriate
- The Half Step animation taken from Bard's tale. Hate it
- Continuous respawning of monsters, expecially minions
- One character is forced, so you can pick just three
- I preferred the Mirrors more than the Hybernation chambers
- Too short
- Keep the whole machine working in order to have energy for opening the portal
- Interface changes it is slightly less intuitive than before


In fact all those disadvantages made it a lesser game than the original one (but this is my personal taste).
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Re: What do you like/dislike about DM2 compared to original DM?

Post by Twiggy »

It's nice to see I wasn't alone in hating the minions. It was such a pain in the arse when you are constantly being harrassed by them. You take a sleep, bam there they are, going through your inventory, bam, go and take a phone call, bam your party is dead. I dunno just felt like it ruined the game beyond anything else for me. I'd often want to go back and play it again, but that beyond any of the other issues stopped me from going back to it.
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Re: What do you like/dislike about DM2 compared to original DM?

Post by beowuuf »

I think the minions are toned down in the RTC DM2 version, which is closer to the DM1 version.
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Re: What do you like/dislike about DM2 compared to original DM?

Post by zoom »

I think for the minions, you need to not open a gate in the forest area..
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Re: What do you like/dislike about DM2 compared to original DM?

Post by beowuuf »

You can't progress if you don't I think. And they can just build up in the keep anyway :(
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Re: What do you like/dislike about DM2 compared to original DM?

Post by Ameena »

At least you can go back to thr starting room and lock yourself in - that was always my preferred spot for a rest and stuff when I needed to - with the Tech Shield, getting back there to rest and sell stuff in the shops was never a problem anyway, even if you'd got halfway up Skullkeep itself.
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