Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

[Ion Zone]

@Ion: as I said, you already have DM2 in RTC (as an optionally dungeon). It woundn`t be hard to expand this game. Just open DM2 folder in RTC editor... You should easily get how the inner puzzles works. Or do you want to write a game like DM2 in RTC engine from the beginning?

Well, what I wanted to do was just expand it a bit, at the moment, and it would help to have help!

*Edit*

RTC seems to be running a hugely crippled version of DM II, for one thing, regardless of which game you play, you only toggle one hand per character, it also seems to have problems with doorways.

[Sphenx]

Just want to dig up this thread : is there any update of this project? what is the current status?

[Gambit37]

Wow, welcome back Sphenx! It's been a long time since we've seen you around here

I suspect that this project didn't get anywhere. The last post is over 6 months old and mentions that the RTC version of DM2 is "crippled" -- I doubt Ion Zone was interested in it after discovering that

[Sphenx]

Just what I thought ...

Anyway, I too grew up the idea of an 'enhanced' version of DM2 and was already in the process of designing new maps and graphics for it.
I planned to target the original PC DOS version, as I like to work with the original version (which anyway could be converted for RTC)

Well ... If Ion Zone's project seems not to be active, I might carry it and call other for some help and ideas. What do you think? Are some interested in this?

[zoom]

I think there will be participants. Some will work more, some less.*

It might be a good idea to summarize the planning.
*What is the mutual goal? are there already some things?
then you could perhaps see some flaws or counter - arguments against an enhanced dm2-project, who knows?
You could of course find some trifty good reasons for doing it. (Like the 2 hand use and increased interactivity..)
maybe have a compromise and get rid of some possibly unwanted features of dm2?(movement, scifi)
-->so all this info floats around here in some place or another. I really think this info has to be collected and sorted, structured.
mechanics/gameplay/world all these issues or something like that. I would not know where to start.
WHAT IS POSSIBLE, Why doing it?

Farming per se would not be bad, imo.
You should only make sure that the game still offers rewards apart from that. It is just plain silly to being able to buy the best weapons in a shop at the end. There should be balance
MAybe that means getting rid of the shops altogether? I loved the shop but then when you see what it is doing to the game it might be a wise decision to trash it.

So reasons would be good. Good reasons.

[beowuuf]

I saw you bouncing around recently Sphenx, meant to say 'hey'. So 'hey'

DM2, some of the party mechanics changes and easier dungeon aside, had a cool feel. I know I had a writer's pad of ideas for an RTC dungeo nthat actually had alot of echoes to DM2.

[Sphenx]

@Zoom, you ask good questions.
My main concern is "what is possible", because I am sure we have all a ton of ideas to put in if there were no limitation.
The main problem with DM2 is that they did not updated enough the engine from DM1, meaning the databases are running short, especially for actuators. And if there are not enough actuators, then there are not enough puzzles possible. That is something I don't understand, even there are 3 unused database in the format...
What I mean is that I am searching a way to expand more DM2 format and get round this limitation.


Why doing it? Because I think I am not the only one that is frustrated by the whole DM2 and want to see it in a best way. The game deserves a better design.

Concerning the other points, it should be globally a more balanced game, more complex, and longer. I do agree there is something wrong with the shops and the money thing, but they are not to be trashed. Even for the minions, they are part of the DM2 feel and I don't think they must be removed. Actually, it seems FTL guys have some good ideas they left - why? and I would like to reintroduce them (see the beta version and read the manual introduction for these elements).

What will we need?
First of all, ideas about maps, puzzles, new items, creatures and the global design (actually for that point I am clear what to do)
Secondly, those ideas have to be classified and discussed.
Thirdly, they have to be made: that includes maps (dungeon.dat) and graphics (graphics.dat) , possibly musics (but requires a MIDI to HMP convertor).

And organize all this stuff among participants.


@Beowuuf, hey do you say you have something or have not ?

[beowuuf]

Only ideas on a pad for an RTC dungeon, not anythign concrete you would want to use for a better DM2 probably!

[zoom]

Thorough and concise thoughts there, Sphenx.
so perhaps some people will like the idea
It is an intrigueing plan, for a lot of people have dreamed about a different dm2

sidenote:
- maybe use the (dm) wiki to some extent ?

[raixel]

I would love to help bring this project to light. LIke most people on this board, I feel that DM2 had some great concepts (Use of money, 2 hands for attack, new spells ect) but ultimately fell flat. I also agree with Ion that the RTC engine might ot be the best to do an actual remake of DM2. (IMHO the fact that it is lacking the 2 hands ability, one of my favorite things about DM2, stands out the most)

I have almost no actual programming knowledge, but I'm willing to help in any way I can.
Is the RTC engine going to be used, or the actual DM2 engine? Or one of the other clones? I know DMute, and a bit about editing RTC and DMJava, and almost nothing about editing the other clones.

[Sphenx]

At first, I am planning to use PC DM2 engine (through DosBox). I try to keep close to the standard; and anyway a DM2 dungeon can be converted for RTC.
I tried DM2 for RTC, but seeing the Digger Worms chasing me into the Skullkeep entrance corridor annoyed me a bit but I guess we can easily work that out
Are there other powerful clones around the place ? (I have missed many news for ... a few years)

As for editing, I am using DMDC2 and DMBuilder.

About helping, it can be throwing some ideas, designing puzzles, making graphics, building maps parts, adding some secondary quests ...
In which do you think you may help ?

As I said, I have already some stuff ready but I need some more time to unveil fully the project ...

[beowuuf]

DSB allows you to do alot through lua scripting, and is still being actively looked at by Sophia.

[zoom]

being actively looked at by Sophia.

That is very true and really nice

DSB allows you to do alot through lua scripting

I think the question would be if Sophia would go as far and "add" (i.e. change the engine!) for 2 Hand usage to work
(2hand usage being the one feature majority of people liked about DM2)

if it is done with the PC version , and an RTC port poses no real problem, then probably porting to DSB won´t be hard either.

[Sphenx]

DSB looks very nice (I tried the CSB dungeon but there are minor differences). I have to look more into it to know what is in the core engine and what is out as scriptable. Do you think multiple wallsets and new creatures behaviour are scriptable for DSB?

Personally, I like more in DM2 the fact that casting a spell doesn't prevent you using your hands, so you can do 3 times more actions than in DM!

[beowuuf]

Surely that's the other way around? The party movement interface and spellcasting interface both interrupted the main weapon interface. It was impossible to fire off spells and use a weapon at the same time, and moving around the party in combat blocked both of those.

Unless you mean that there is no cooldown between spells and weapons? I think that was more to do with the fact that the weapon cooldowns were really toned down anyway, and you had two hands - there usually was no penalty for just hacking away, even with powerful weapons.

[Trantor]

Multiple wallsets and new creature AI are very possible in DSB. In fact, DSB monsters are, by default, smarter than the usual DM ones if I recall correctly.

Funnily, I seem to be one of the few guys who didn't really like two-handed combat in DM2. I think it made the fights way too easy. But then again, I only played DM2 once, and that was in 1994...

[beowuuf]

It was ok, but I think the combination of fast cooldown and two handed fighting meant it was just a flurry of blows. I think I've been on your side in previous discussions

[Sophia]

Two-handed fighting is not in DSB by default, but it wouldn't necessarily require any involvement on my part to implement it, as everything needed is exposed to the Lua scripting engine. The biggest problem would be handling attack cool down periods, as the current DSB system just uses dsb_get_idle and dsb_set_idle which is a single timer for each player.

[zoom]

Thanks Sophia, for taking a look. You know best of what DSB would be capable of.

I am coming to think lately that using the DMPC version as Sphenx suggested initially, would be better than using DSB.
REasons against DSB (or other clones) as I see now:
There are indeed quite a lot modifications and additions gameplaywise in DM2 compared to csb or dm. These are rather complex I guess
(I watched some videos on youtube, for I , like Trantor have not played dm2 for some time and there I´ve seen some of these features)

---> DM2 is a whole new game you could say.

There are animations everywhere,viewport and item-specific(So you would need a few animation artists to do it convincingly)
Item interaction is possible in more places, e.g. pressing a button while standing aside the wall!
A very different party attack options set up and functionality(position change, 2 Hands usage-->new menue)
Item management. Items give bonus in the scabbard, drop items into inv on status bars(Adamo requested that for DSB, if I recall correctly)


So anyways, using DSB or RTC would require a whole lot of tweaking and adding. First you had to guess what somethings do then try to emulate it.

I do not know how much pain it would be "to simply use the DMPC version"
and fiddle with that one, with existing code and expand upon this.

but as stated above
there are too many differences which means taking a clone and incorporating these features into it won´t mean that will be an easy task.



I guess for the new features to implement into DSB you would first have to understand the internal mechanics and formulas taken out of DMPC,
so you would have to start with DMPC anyway.

-->For a later , much later phase if this project sees some light, DSB could possibly emulate the things learned from here. As a bonus you could say.

I am very undecided and what do the others think? Opinions?


Questions:
also, is there a thread where all the differences and additions of DM2 are shown in synopsis/short form?
If not, are there any notions to make such a list?



Again: DM2 reborn could be a great great game in itself. There is really big potential.


sidenote: what I do not like in DM2, is how character choice is done.
You do not have incarnation, just ressurrection (one button)

[Sphenx]

If you really want to know, I can't fit the 'enhanced' dungeon using "only" PC DM2. I was thinking of splitting the game into several dungeons, but this is truly not an elegant solution. Also, there are still hard coded tables such as spells, creatures (and objects) AI which make impossible to add new spell or creature stats, unless you have the source code ready to compile - which is not my case.
So, it is necessary to think of a good technical choice to achieve the project.

[zoom]

to get the source code is probably out of the question - anyways, who has it? Who to ask for it ?

So there are 2 options then, or 3:

use only PC DM2, and split the game into several dungeons.
I guess that means several dungeon.dat files?
if so, you could make each dungeon.dat be like a disk swap: for the entering of skullkeep, please insert disk 5 or something.

the hard coded tables , we cannot help it.
If you compare it with csbwin, where there are similar restrictions:
there are about 20 monsters, and the graphics.dat has a limited amount of pictures for the items, some use several, like the torch
Csbwin has enhanced this with alternate monster graphics; the same monster has different images, but all these share the same monster definition. You can make them look different, but basically they all have the same basis-of-monster.

Items can get couple of descriptive texts and have single ID´s to make some very special, but there is still the restriction in place. You do not really have more itemgraphics .(to my knowledge)
So you could maybe use something along those lines for DM2PC ENHANCED

In dsb, to come back to it, you would not have any of these restrictions.
You (we, someone) had to build it up from scratch, but then it would work very nicely.

My doubts in my last post were because DM2 is so different. You have different movement, world reacts different and interacts in new ways and so on. I thought it would be easier to just change a bit of DM2PC and deemed that easier than building anew(=tweaking dsb).

How hard would it to incorporate all the tables and knowledge of dm2/creatures AI /objects AI -data into a dsb framework? (I am no progammer)
If you already have a rough idea of the internal structures of PCDM2 you will know how to extract this information.
Maybe then it is just copy and paste it into lua-readable format?
Again, I think it will be really cool to have an editable DM2, a DM2 enhanced.

[Sphenx]

Zoom, you missed the SKWin thread.
However, the DM2 graphics.dat has enough room for editing thing; just the stupid dungeon format that can't handle much ...

I already thought of disk swapping trick. That's the best solution I had for keeping PC DM2.

Anyway, the first step towards DSB will be to convert the original DM2. Then after we could go further.