RTCED 0.1 - Development Diary with screenshots

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 6:53 pm

[edit] I have made this a sticky topic as I will still be updating it with new screenshots and the features implemented [/edit]

You will need to copy and paste these into a new browser window, my host doesnt support external linking, sorry,

www.freewebs.com/andyboy_uk/rtceditor/ed01.jpg

www.freewebs.com/andyboy_uk/rtceditor/ed02.jpg

First real day of development so getting everything together was the main purpose of today.

Features so far:-

- basic wall and openspace layout is working
- the gui lib I am using is excellent so Ive got that down to a fine art
- object vault is loaded and placed into the gui properly ready for placement.

Next steps:

- Dynamically building windows with object properties

That should be fun, then the object placement system can go in.

- oh and the next quick quick thing is going to be switching between levels on the layout (2 min job) the data is already there.

Help requested (but not requried):

- If someone wants to take a 32x32 tile and draw some dungeon features for me for each floor item that could be in there (the guide has a list of items) i.e. Haze, pressure pads. pits, doors Vertical and Horisontal of differnt types) I would be grateful. going to use my own for now (in the enxt set but nice ones woudl be appriciated).

also replacement graphics for the open space tile could be nice, like a little floor texture or something so it looks a bit like the magic map.

Cheers all, next update in a couple of days or so.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 10:15 pm

HAHAHA! You used my DM sheild. AWESOME! Yeah, I'll make some tiles for you for using in the dungeon.

moo

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 11:29 pm

well here's the start of it. For more I need to know some specifics. Things like can you use gifs for transperancy? For things like switches, floor times. etc.

http://dmweb.free.fr/Stuff/images/RTC_editor.zip

I was thinking for floor items I would have one clothing image, one key image, one food image and one weapon image so when you look you can see instantly what kind of items are there.

I also figured having the right hand bar like you have with readouts of everything on the tile, what kind of tile it is. And to have some images for certain things. Like a damage tile editor where you can set the type of damage it does.. have a little graphic in there..

various things like that.

I'd like to make some interface graphics for it to but I need to sit down and really think about it. I have basic ideas but I need to figure out exactly the best use of space. Interfaces are one of my favorite things to do.. I think I'm fairly good at it for the most part if I put my mind to it.

moo

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:54 am

Cows, yeah, hope you dont mind about the shield being used

Im pretty crap at gfx so I havent made any for the editor.

Right, I have been a complete moron, the tiles are actually 20x20, so if you wouldnt mind resizing them I would be grateful, I have MSPaint and that is about it (laughs - I know I know).

Also, can you make all graphics (like doors, etc) 20x20 and put them on a masked color like 255,0,255 so I can overlay them properly without having to work out offsets

If you are going to do key/item grids, can you make them 5x5 (a quater of the size of the 20x20 tile) so that users can place them on the northeast, southeast, northwest and southwest of a tile, but things like doors and pits, can you make 20x20, also something to represent triggers could be cool as well

I have PM'd you about a chat if you have any IRC software or MSN installed. But many thanks for you're contribution

Thanks cows

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 12:04 pm

I've been making them 64x64, it's easier to see on a 1024x768 mode and you can always scale them down 20 32x32 easy enough with code if they want to zoom out.

As for the rest of it.. I'm working on it.. I did a stairs up and down but I'll send those out with the others. For triggers and the like I'll make them easy to see as possible since they are normally small.

moo

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 1:30 pm

just as a preview of the work in progress interface.. mainly shows layout. nothing more.

http://dmweb.free.fr/Stuff/images/interface_wip.jpg

large image BTW.. 150k or so.. compressed 1024x768 jpg.

moo

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 2:32 pm

Thats looking might sweet cowsmanaut, im not sure that I will eb able to get the shadows in tho, but it will still look awesome

Post by **Gambit37** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 3:02 pm

I agree, the icons do look good--maybe too good! Personally, I'd prefer something simpler when using an editor, as I feel that overly designed graphics make them harder to use. Perhaps I'll do a 'lite' graphics set, Andy, and users can choose between the two?

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 4:10 pm

If you like Gambit.

What would be really useful to those creating graphics sets is that you call the PNG file after the object name

i.e.

WALLITEM_ALCOVE_ORNATE

is called

WALLITEM_ALCOVE_ORNATE.PNG

in this case it would need

WALLITEM_ALCOVE_ORNATE_N.PNG
WALLITEM_ALCOVE_ORNATE_S.PNG
WALLITEM_ALCOVE_ORNATE_E.PNG
WALLITEM_ALCOVE_ORNATE_W.PNG

the tiles can be any size you like for you're graphics set, but so long as they are all the same size for the large block items (like doors) and things like doors or objects that go on top of the dungeon layout (like doors) are on a masked background (255,0,255).

Game Items like Clothes need to be on a size the quater of the one you are using for the big one.

Example of image sets for the editor. Using a 64x64 images to represent a game tile. If you want a smaller set of tiles you need to keep the numbers as multiples of 2 to make life easier:-

When I refer to big tiles or large tiles I mean a square of the dungeon being represented by a tile, and when I say small tiles I mean the positions that 4 mummies could (for instance) occupy on that square.

64x64 large is 16x16 small
32x32 large is 8x8 small ... etc

Dungeon Layout
tile0.PNG = wall square (64x64)
tile1.PNG = corridor square (64x64)

Dungeon Objects (require N/S/E/W for images facing different directions)
WALLITEM_ALCOVE_ORNATE.PNG (64x64)
WALLITEM_MIRROR (64x64 - but only a small image on a mask)

Game Items
MISC_TORCH (16x16 on masked 255,0,255 image)

Monsters
Monsters are a little trickier because they can be both large and small, but if you make the small ones (i.e. up to 4 per square) as 16x16 and the large ones on 64x64 and mask the background then I will work out which monsters are big and which ones arent by altering their text files

Also, you may as well just have the monsters facing one way, as they will move about anyway

If none of that makes sense at all then post here and I will explain it better.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:27 pm

I don't understand.. how could nicer graphics be harder to use? I could understand if they were very busy, and prevented you from seeing what you were doing. However, I'm trying to be as clear in each image as possible. I'd rather not have anything lost in the image. (this is not a complaint)

Personally, I've always found nicer visuals allowed me to feel more comfortable using the tools. Gave me less potential for getting bored too. Especially with game map tools. Blizzard's warcraft2 map tool is a great example of good visuals and functionality. You can see immediately what you are dealing with because you can recognise it. it's also nice to look at. So it's as much like making a work of art as it is making a map.

hmmm, I guess it's just personal prefrence in the end. Though I have to admit that I'm surprised to hear from an artist saying they want a more visually sterile environment to work in.

moo

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:42 pm

uh oh.

lol

Ok, what I'll do then is create a tile set folder that you can specify what tiles you want to use. Anyone who wants to create a set of tiles is more than welcome to.

Is that ok? That should allow everyone to work with whatever tile representations that they want.

Personally, I quite like Cowsmanauts tiles to work with, they are very nice on the eye and easy to work with in the editor when it is all in action. If you want a really basic set of tiles, then I can do the art for them

bring on the blocks of color and the letters

Post by **Gambit37** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:42 pm

On second thoughts, I modify my view. I was thinking in terms of icons being displayed at 16x16, like the icons I drew for Paul Stevens CSBuilder. But of course, if we can have them nice and big, then obviously things are going to look a lot better, and probably clearer.

However, I still think that making them too good can detract from the task in hand, in this case the building of a dungeon. I don't need to see how fancy the floor tile is when building, I just need to know it's a floor...

However, larger, clearer graphics for items and monsters is a good thing.

So in fact, I'm somewhere in between the two originally opposing views...

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:47 pm

I hope you don't think I was trying to change your View (*you like big pretty graphics*) I mean that wasn't my intention (*you like big pretty graphics*) if it was I mean.. I would have been more obvious (*you like big pretty graphics*) so please don't think that I was trying to change your point of view or anything (*you like big pretty graphics*) because that would be *wrong*

(*you like big pretty graphics*)
(*you like big pretty graphics*)
(*you like big pretty graphics*)
(*you like big pretty graphics*)
(*you like big pretty graphics*)

*ahem*

moo

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:59 pm

I will still keep in the option to change the tilesets used in the editor. That way anyone can do a set that looks like whatever they want.

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:25 pm

Tiles definitely look nice, although I have a slight optical illusion of them tilting to the left. Maybe just my imagination. I think what gambit meant was that "too nice" would mean getting lost in details and colours instead of just grasping a quick overview of a dungeon level. But if multiple tilesets would be possible all users would be satisfied anyway, right?

Regards, PitD

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:48 pm

For anyone wishing to create a tileset, does this help, it is the basic mask color on the right sized squares (64x64 and 16x16) with the files named as they need to be loaded into the editor.

The names correspond with the RTC object names

http://www.freewebs.com/andyboy_uk/tile ... mplate.zip
{Edit: RIGHT CLICK LINK "SAVE TARGET AS"}

Updates on the editor

Not many to be honest, I have been chatting to the developer who wrote the UI library that the editor uses and have been ironing out some bugs, but we now have 3 editing modes: Dungeon Layout, Dungeon Features (doors, pits, triggers, etc) and items (swords, food, monsters).

The next thing is to get the object placement sorted and the property screen working properly.

Im aware that there are some objects missing, like the monster attacks, etc, but we can work out what is missing and do the files for them manually.

Cheers everyone

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:56 pm

sounds awesome, I edited your message.. it seems everytime I clicked on the link It sent me to a 404.. so I tried right click and it worked.

it certainly is usefull to have all the names since then you need not worry about it when you place them in the editor and the artist knows everything you need and what's not done yet

moo

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:14 am

Cows, can you download again, the template now includes WALLITEM images that are 256 long so they have 4 frames,

The frames should be in the following order when drawn and be 64px width each.

NORTH
EAST
SOUTH
WEST

Cheers peeps, right Im off to bed

Post by **Gambit37** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:49 am

It would save a lot of effort if you could just use one image for overlays such as alcoves, and rotate them within the editor for the n,s,e,w views.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:16 am

yeah, that would work for switches, and fountains too

oh also stairs. though in RTC one direction suits all.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 5:21 am

WOAH!! I just opened the sip file.. you have a image file for nearly *every* possible thing in the dungeon..

My thoughts were, one image for keys.. they are specific items and so they deserve their own image, one for chests again same reason, one for clothing(including armour) basically anything you can wear, one for weapons of all kinds including wands and staves, and one for food of any kind.

for doors.. I was again thinking only one kind maybe two. IF it were two it would be for locked or not. Switches again.. one for floor types.. and one for wall types. Monsters, 3, but this is something specific. One for all regular monsters, one for monsters taking up 4 squares (pretty much just the dragon and scorpion )and one for chaos. I could even see my way to adding sub classes. maybe non material and material destinction. however that could simply be carried out by making the same monster icon translucent.

It's not that there isn't relevance to doing it your way, but I wonder if it isn't dificult to make such destinctions at that scale. Aside from the items. I think maybe it might be possible to do though.. at least for items. using the orriginal graphics.

I don't know if I'm able to do that many individual images.. hmmm.. we shall see.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:12 am

update of the image set... I'll need to talk to you some more on the images Andy. Perhaps this weekend since we seem to be in *very* different time zones.

http://dmweb.free.fr/Stuff/images/interface.jpg

got some monsters and items in there.

Post by **Gambit37** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:20 am

I haven't looked at the zip file, but it sounds like overkill. I certainly don't need to see that level of detail in the dungeon view; just need to know what kind of items are on a tile. As long as the editor dialogue clearly shows what the items are, that's good enough for me. The work involved in creating images for everything the editor can use certainly outweighs its usefulness.

Also, I'm assuming there will be a zoom-out facility. I can't possibly imagine editing a map and only being able to see a few tiles at a time -- that's the problem with larger graphics. Personally, I'd be happy with DMute's level of zoom (16x16).

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 11:14 am

[edited to match up roughly with the new tileVault zip file]

I agree that it is overkill, The PNG files were generated automatically and thats why there is one per dungeon object.

I will condense it down to a core icon set, but I am also going to leave this functionality in for those wanting to do a complete tileSet.

Also teh rotation is not a problem in the editor, I agree it will be better to do it like this, so everything should be on the south wall when drawn (i.e. Drawn the right way up) on any icons.

Ok so we need a set of core Icons,

We have Wall and Corridor tiles already (thanks Cows) so Im thinking core set of icons should be something like:-

DUNGEON FEATURES

Keyholes (on south wall of ta tile) - includes coinslots
Alcoves (on south wall of a tile) - includes alter of vi
Pits - one image for each type
Wall Features (movable, fake, etc) - 1 image each
Haze (seperate from teleporter - for invisible teleporter)
Stairs Up and Down (1 image can do for all angles)
Doors (horizontal images only requried)
Switches (on south wall) - includes buttons

ITEMS

1 for each monster object (there are 2 types, big monsters (1 per tile and small (up to 4 on a tile)
1 for clothing items
1 for weapons)
1 for food (all types)
1 for the chest
1 for keys
1 for Misc (ropes, mirrors, etc)

OTHERS

Any thing else you want an icon for.

What I will do is handle the rotation of these tiles in the editor for the ones that need rotation, also I will fix the objectVaultFiles to point to one of the core icons (in the final list).

Cheers,

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:01 am

just checking, since you seem to have made them all PNG.. did you figure out the alpha masking? or is it Power pink all the way?

moo

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:54 am

Power pink my friend.

Didnt get the alpha working im afraid

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:56 pm

Ok, for anyone wanting to create a tileset, there is an updated zip at

http://www.freewebs.com/andyboy_uk/tile ... mplate.zip
{ Right click and Save Target As... to download }

There are fewer images in there asided from the original 333

whoops.

Now Ive pretty much got the object vault licked, its time to start doing some object placement

Thanks all

A

copperman · Post by **copperman** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 1:15 am

After reading the whole thread and getting the latest version of the tiles, I have started to convert the original tiles from the CSB magic map (with artistic license for the extra tiles not in the game

I have also added a couple (after scouting through the default dungeons) just to make things simpler. I agree with the post on having many different images for items/keyholes/et al . Although maybe a comprimise could be reached by having basic and advanced tiles as an option in the editor. How far are you prepared to go with this editor btw? Will it eventually include import options to add wallsets and monster/inventory item graphics? I'm still working on the tile set

Great work so far, and thanks to the whole DM/CSB/RTC community for keeping one of the best designed games of all-time alive.

GG you are a true man of the people

andyboy_uk · Post by **andyboy_uk** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:31 am

Admittedly I havent done a lot to it, but development started again today

And I changed my avatar back to the dragon, cos I really like it

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:44 pm

Is there any alpha or beta version for trying yet ?

Regards, PitD

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RTCED 0.1 - Development Diary with screenshots

RTCED 0.1 - Development Diary with screenshots

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