graphics for RTC

This is an archive of posts from Cowsmanaut's old forums.

Moderator: cowsmanaut

Forum rules
Please read the Forum rules and policies before posting.
Locked
User avatar
Gambit37
Should eat more pies
Posts: 13714
Joined: Wed May 31, 2000 1:57 pm
Location: Location, Location
Contact:

graphics for RTC

Post by Gambit37 »

I don't know how many of you read here anymore. I get about say.. hmm 4 regular visitors I guess. I imagine that were I to have completed the graphics set I woul dget more regular traffic. With Beowuuf on the job with his jump site idea it will likley improve that. however, the graphics set does need to be completed eventually.

There is a problem though. Inspiration to complete the set.

The reasons for this are really, first off I can't put my walls, ceiling or floor in so nothing fits with what is there now and I have no idea when that will be implimented. Secondly, I have no idea if George plans to place animation in at all or when he will if he will. Lastly, I really would like support for alpha channels. It's (as far as I'm told) implemented in directX and should be simple enough to support.. ultimately it will mean that the graphics you will see in RTC will be exactly as they should be in this day and age for a 2D game. Variable transperancy is (as I've said many a times) very usefull and fairly important when dealing with things like water, smoke, fire, ghosts, or ice etc..

The reason I'm bickering here is because it's my forum and George has heard all this from me before both in forum and in private. He has said to me that he thinks it may slow down the code too much and thus doesn't want to take the risk. I understand the concern and I regret he feels that way. It's his clone and there is nothing I can do about that. I really don't have a right to try and change his mind about it.

I'd just like all to understand my place in all this. I feel two things in regards to this graphics override, first that I think it's a very secondary part of what George wants out of this and thus I feel as if my gfx are worth the effort I had put into them in the past. Second, I don't think that the graphics I will do will be able to be presented at the level that the could be. Without animation and Alphas .. they are still rough and blocky, and little more than just sitting there.. bland.. more colours.. but still bland..

So while people have requested that I complete them.. I have a good 7? votes or so that suggest I should complete the dungeon graphics and annother 4? for the monsters.. I have emails from friends on top of those .. Thing is if you can't see them as they were meant to be why should you really bother?

I've actually been debating making a new set that would match better to the colours of the old walls just so I would have something but that just seems like going backwards..

anyway, I'd like to hear your end, those of you who have read this far (thanks) please let me know your look on this. I'd really like some perspective on this .. either in support of, or against, doesn't really matter. I'm comming up on a big change on this site and I would like to know where to go with it.. it was mostly set upon RTC to begin with. So it's a matter of what goes and what stays. :/
User avatar
Gambit37
Should eat more pies
Posts: 13714
Joined: Wed May 31, 2000 1:57 pm
Location: Location, Location
Contact:

Post by Gambit37 »

Whew!

Well, there's a whole load of possible questions and answers here, but most of them seem to hinge on whether or not George is going to implement feature X or function Y into RTC either soon, or at some point in the future.

I'm going to see if I can answer some of your queries by writing about the RTC project as I see it from my point of view.

RTC is George's project, and has been a huge learning curve for him. I think he should be justifiably proud of what he has achieved with it so far. The problem now arises when people like you and me can see the potential of the RTC engine and want to do all sorts of clever things to make the game look better and bring it 'up-to-date'. It's actually more tricky than it seems.

I don't pretend to know how RTC works internally, but given what I know about it so far, I think that it won't be long before it reaches it's performance limit. With the new simultaneous sounds in v0.15 it's already slowing down a lot on my old P233. As far as I can tell, George has got the thing to work and do what he wanted, but I don't think it's greatly optimized. And that's the crux of the matter. It's not written to take advantage of 3D accelerators, and I doubt it ever will be. It's a learning project to try and clone an old game for use on modern computers, with some added flexibility thrown in. It's never been about making the thing comparable to Unreal or half-Life or whatever. RTC will never appeal to new gamers who are used to modern games; it's really made by a DM fan, for the DM fans.

Because of the performance considerations, I doubt that support for Alpha channel animated graphics will ever be added to RTC, unless George learns a whole bunch of new stuff and re-writes much of the core code. Bear in mind that it has taken nearly a year to go through 15 versions to get to the point where we have a fully working (well, nearly) DM and CSB clone. How much longer would it take to add all the other stuff we've been suggesting over the last year?

Judging from George's responses in the past, it looks like we would be more likely to see an editor for RTC dungeons before we will see things like event square support or animated textures. And I'm not sure that even George will make an editor himself as he's already pushed for time. If I were a programmer, it would be something I'd love to do myself, but I do not have the time or the skills. Probably someone else will do it once George publishes the dungeon specs - which won't be long now.

I too want to develop a graphics set for RTC, but I realise that George has his own set of priorities, and as you pointed out, there's no way I can rely on any one feature making it's way into RTC simply because I want it. And I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I am looking forward to designing new graphics for RTC without alpha channels and animation - I think half the fun is finding ways of making them look interesting even though they ARE still 2D. I don't agree with your point that your graphics will look bland if you can't use Alpha channels or whatever... you shouldn't need to rely on the technology to make something look good...

For me the bottom line is that I like RTC and already have many ideas for extending it in the future. I still have an adventure that I wrote 10 years ago for DM (at the time I thought that FTL might have released a level editor, but alas). I could easily create this adventure for RTC using it's new dungeon format. Add on top of that, I'd like to create a new look and feel for it too. These things excite me, and I in no way feel cheated or annoyed because RTC doesn't have some of the features that might make it easier. Quite the opposite.

At the end of the day, you have to decide whether you want to make these graphics or not. That's the important thing. If you get pleasure and enjoyment from it, then that should be enough. If other people also benefit from it, well then that's a bonus. That's my philosophy on the DM web site I am currently building; it's also my philosophy on any future graphics I might design for RTC. Why do you need other people to vote on it?
User avatar
cowsmanaut
Moo Master
Posts: 4378
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:53 am
Location: canada

Post by cowsmanaut »

well I'll adress two of the things you mention.

1. the looking bland statement is really something down to how I want to create certain things. The way I want to make these images makes it neccesary for me to have variable levels of translucency. If they do not have it then they won't look as good and they most certainly won't blend into their environment. The best I can do without such an ability is to use dithering to mask out areas which I've done already but one can plainly see that it's far from what it could be..

2. Why do I need people to vote on it? Well, there is a really good reason for that. I'm not just doing this stuff for myself. If I was I wouldn't bother to share it. I'm doing this stuff partly for amusement and partly for practice. The remainder is because I think others could enjoy it. Once I complete the graphics I would probably play DM a few times with them and then perhaps stop playing.. I haven't played a whole lot simply because I've lost interest in playing games. I enjoy working on them more..

Honestly speaking, I think that George likes it the way it looks and has a more purist view.. so far as I understand from what he has said to me. I did the graphics for the spell book to make it look as though it came directly from orriginal DM. Not too hard a task comming from Deluxepaint on the Amiga 500 in my earlier days. At the point that I had done those images I was still working on the GFX set quite a bit and could have been done it soon after. I just got from that, a basic idea that he was happy with the old look and wanted to keep it looking and working like DM.

I'm alright with all of that. I could leave the GFX set today and never worry about it again. I have annother project in full 3D with all the up to date implementations I can handle. I'm not suffering a loss. I do feel however that some people really had wanted them completed. I just don't know if or when people will be able to use them.. I don't feel cheated. George has done a great job and it's his baby.. I respect that completely. I just simply want to know that if I bother to try and complete the set that it will be worth it is all.
User avatar
Gambit37
Should eat more pies
Posts: 13714
Joined: Wed May 31, 2000 1:57 pm
Location: Location, Location
Contact:

I'd like to see them

Post by Gambit37 »

Gosh, DP on the Amiga... yes, that's where I began too. Those were the days, eh? I even still have some of the DM maps that I made on it years ago, and my own attempt at DM style graphics - this is over ten years ago now. Nostalgia, what a wonderful thing...

Anyway, I for one would like to see your graphics set. I'm very interested to see how you'd complete all the monsters and items as your style and mine differ greatly. So that's one vote!
Locked