mana multipliers

[Adamo]

As I`m trying to redesign the whole DM spell system, I`ve been busy with figuring out how the mana multiplier works. I still don`t know.
rain` wrote ("ADGE readme"):

Rune editor:
------------

Difficulty multipliers: These values effect how difficult it is to cast a spell at a designated power. Modifying these values will increase the level required to cast a certain spell at a set difficulty.

Mana multipliers: Misinterpreted as mana multipliers, this is the cost of each rune (in units of mana) to add to the incantation at each difficulty level. For example, a spell 6636 will cost 6+7+6+7 mana.

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mana multipliers table:

diff.multipl:  <08>    <12>    <16>    <20>    <24>    <28>  
rune level 1:  1(LO)   2(UM)   3(MON)  4(EE)   5(PAL)  6(MON)
rune level 2:  2(YA)   3(VI)   4(OH)   5(FUL)  6(DES)  7(ZO) 
rune level 3:  4(VEN)  5(EW)   6(KATH) 7(IR)   7(BRO)  9(GOR)
rune level 4:  2(KU)   2(ROS)  3(DAIN) 4(NETA) 6(RA)   7(SAR)

It seems sensible. But it doesn`t work quite that way.
First of all, I entered the original CSB and cast 6636 from rain`s example (that would mean MON ZO KATH SAR) spell. That should cost, as rain` says, 6+7+6+7=26. So it should cost 26 mana points. But it always cost 75 mana points.

So I changed changed mana multipliers table so that the rune number = rune value (that would make it all easier) to

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diff.multipl:  <08>    <12>    <16>    <20>    <24>    <28>  
rune level 1:  1(LO)   2(UM)   3(MON)  4(EE)   5(PAL)  6(MON)
rune level 2:  1(YA)   2(VI)   3(OH)   4(FUL)  5(DES)  6(ZO) 
rune level 3:  1(VEN)  2(EW)   3(KATH) 4(IR)   5(BRO)  6(GOR)
rune level 4:  1(KU)   2(ROS)  3(DAIN) 4(NETA) 5(RA)   6(SAR)

and started investigation. Here`s what I get:

I cast 1111 spell and that cost me 4 mana points. In that case it`s ok! But when I cast 2123 that cost me 10 mana points (it should be 8, because 2+1+2+3=8 ). That`s not ok.

here are the other examples (I always compared the sum with the REAL mana in-game cost):

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1111 4  4  * 2111 5  5  * 3111 6  9  * 4111 7  10 * 5111 8  14 * 6111 9  15
1234 10 10 * 2123 8  10 * 3222 9  15 * 4321 10 18 * 5123 11 23 * 6123 12 26
1235 11 11 * 2222 8  11 * 3123 9  15 * 4222 10 19 * 5222 11 23 * 6222 12 27
1236 12 12 * 2333 11 14 * 3333 12 21 * 4333 13 25 * 5333 14 32 * 6333 15 36
1345 13 13 * 2126 11 15 * 3444 15 27 * 4255 16 33 * 5444 17 41 * 6444 18 48
1346 14 14 * 2345 14 19 * 3255 15 27 * 4444 16 34 * 5255 17 41 * 6355 19 50
1423 10 10 * 2444 14 20 * 3166 16 29 * 4355 17 35 * 5166 18 44 * 6166 19 51
           * 2346 15 21 * 3355 16 29 * 4166 17 36 * 5355 18 44 * 6555 21 57
           * 2555 17 23 * 3555 18 33 * 4555 19 40 * 5555 20 50 * 6566 23 65
           * 2456 17 24 * 3566 20 37 * 4566 21 46 * 5566 22 66 * 6666 24 69
           * 2565 18 25 * 3666 21 39 * 4666 22 49 * 5666 23 69 *
           * 2656 19 27 *            *            *            *
           * 2666 20 29 *            *            *            *

notes:
first column = spell
second column = A+B+C+D sum
third column = real mana cost

As is the spell starts from the 1st spell power (LO) everything is ok, for the next ones different values, and there`s no regularity.. it seems that, except suming all the 1-4 runes levels, there`s also independent multiplier for each of the base mana values. In case of LO that multiplier is 1, so nothing changes. For the highest base runes, the multipliers are different. But as I said, I see no regularity on those results.

[beowuuf]

I think you are also mistaking that the other runes have to be starting with a value of 1 for mana cost

We know that a lo YA spell costs three mana to cast, so ya's base mana cost is two. - all the other runes, when dealing low level, also work out this way (so a light spell cats 6 to cast, lo = 1 + ful = 5)

You need to re-build the table with that in mind, it will throw off your calculations I would have thought! I cannot see why 1111 cost you four points, when 11 on it's own costs 3 mana!

[Adamo]

You need to re-build the table with that in mind, it will throw off your calculations I would have thought! I cannot see why 1111 cost you four points, when 11 on it's own costs 3 mana!

Beo: I wrote I changed the mana values in ADGE mana multiplier editor so that the rune number = rune value. It is easier for me to count all the stuff that way. Take a look at the second table code and compare it with the original one. I tested 1111 few times and it ALWAYS eats 4 mana, because 1+1+1+1=4 (with the changed mana multipliers table). In original code, LO YA spell eat 3 mana, because 1+2=3.

Besides, take a rain`s example (For example, a spell 6636 will cost 6+7+6+7 mana.) with the unchanged mana values. It always takes 75 mana points in game, while should cost 26. I tried it on original CSB.

[beowuuf]

Just checked -
1111 cost = 1+2+4+2
2111 cost = 2+3+6+3
3111 cost = 3+4+8+4

etc in normal DM game

However,
1 6 = 1+7
2 6 = 2+10
3 6 = 3+14
4 6 = 4+17
5 6 = 5+21
6 6 = 6+24

So there is a system, but not a straightforward one!

[beowuuf]

sorry, had skimmed and missed it

But as you see from my work, there is a multiplication going on

The Lo version is 1+7+6+7

But as you can see fro mthe table, that means the bigger version will likely to be 6+24+21+24=75 (just guessed the 21 for the 6 progression, and blow me it fit!)

The Mon run is multiplying the rune base cost, but not in an obvious way
#
Runes of value 1 increase linearly, as do runes of value 2 runes of 3 might increase 1/2/1/2/1, runes of four increase by 2, runes of five increase 2/3/2/3/2 runes of six increase by 3, and runes of value seven as shown 7 increased 4/3/4/3/4

[Adamo]

3111 (MON YA VEN KU) should cost 3+2+4+2=11, but it costs 3+4+8+4=19.
3666 (MON ZO GOR SAR) should be 3+7+9+7=26, but it is 3+14+18+14=49.
So in the case of MON it seems all other runes (YA VEN KU) except the first one are doubled.

[beowuuf]

As I said, it's not a multiplier on the additional rune, it's an additional cost added to the base cost. Power symbols cost as stated, since they do not have a multiplier on them

Eg

Value 2 (like Ya) progress as 2,3,4,5,6,7 (+1 each step)
Value 3 (progress as 3,4,6,7,9,10(I would guess, +1+2+1+2+1)
Value 4 progress as 4,6,8,10,12,14 (+2 each step)
Value 5 progress as 5,7,10,12,15,17 (+2 +3 +2 +3 +2)
Value 6 pregress as 6,9,12,15,18,21 (+3 each step)
Value 7 progress as 7,10,14,17,21,24 (+3 +4 +3 +4 +3)

[Adamo]

yup, evrything`s correct in my (modified!) examples too!
3111 (ON YA VEN KU) costs 9, because 3+1*2+1*2+1*2=9
3222 (ON VI EW ROS) costs 15, because 3+2*2+2*2+2*2=15
3333 (ON OH KATH DAIN) costs 21, because 3+3*2+3*2+3*2=21
3123 (ON YA EW DAIN) costs 15, because 3+1*2+2*2+3*2=15

but in case of :
6444 (MON FUL IR NETA) costs 48, because 6+4*3.5+4*3.5+4*3.5=48

so for the ON the multiplier is 2, for MON multiplier is 3.5

[Adamo]

6355 (MON OH BRO RA) costs 50, because 6+3*3.5+5*3.5+5*3.5=6+10+17+17= 50

note that 3*3.5 is really 10.5 and 5*3.5 is 17.5, but the program rounds it down to 10 and 17.

6255 (MON VI BRO RA) costs 47, because 6+2*3.5+5*3.5+5*3.5=47

[Adamo]

so now ew know, that the LO multiplier = 1, ON multiplier = 2 and MON multiplier = 3.5
yet we`ve got to get know UM, EE and PAL multipliers...

I guess the multipliers are:
LO = 1, UM = 1.5, ON = 2, EE = 2.5, PAL = 3, MON = 3.5

edit:
yup, the multiplier for PAL is 3 - checked!!!

[Adamo]

REASUMING:

the program sums all the mana values set for each rune, BUT FIRST:
- when first rune is LO, multiplies other runes each by 1,
- when first rune is UM, multiplies other runes each by 1.5,
- when first rune is ON, multiplies other runes each by 2,
- when first rune is EE, multiplies other runes each by 2.5,
- when first rune is PAL, multiplies other runes each by 3,
- when first rune is MON, multiplies other runes each by 3.5

(by rounding down the numbers when necesserly)

mystery solved!!
thanx Beo!!! and congrats 10000 posts btw!