Standalone distribution?

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meadwarrior
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Standalone distribution?

Post by meadwarrior »

Hello!
First of all: Thanks for making DSB, Sophia! It's superb to be able to design one's own dungeons so comfortably.

Before I start with bigger project, I have a question:

:?: How would I go about distributing DSB games for everybody to play? Say, on itch.io?
Is there a way to make an .exe file for the game?

Thanks!
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Gambit37
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Re: Standalone distribution?

Post by Gambit37 »

Custom dungeons require the player to already have a working copy of DSB on their system. As DSB is only available from Sophia's site, you don't have the required permissions to distribute that as part of a different package (ie, it's not open source.) Sophia decides how DSB can be distributed, and while I can't speak for her, I don't think she would be happy for it to be bundled as part of some other package.

So I think the only viable solution is to tell users to download DSB, install it, then download your dungeon and install that.

However... if Sophia were agreeable to it, you could in theory build an installer that grabs the ZIP file from Sophia's site, installs it, then install your compiled DSB adventure into the DSB folder as part of the installation. Something like NSIS installer can do it using the InetC and Unzip plugins (although there are possible security implications and other potential issues)
https://nsis.sourceforge.io/Main_Page
https://nsis.sourceforge.io/Inetc_plug-in
https://nsis.sourceforge.io/Nsisunz_plug-in

To be honest though, even if Sophia was OK with it, I wouldn't go that route. There's a lot of stuff that you'd end up being responsible for if you build an installer (eg, what if there's a bug in your script and it does something bad to a user's system?). For hobby projects, I'm a great believer in avoiding as much responsibility for other people's systems as possible. ;-)
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meadwarrior
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Re: Standalone distribution?

Post by meadwarrior »

Thanks for your answer, Gambit!

Hmm, I see...
Both solutions wouldn't be ideal for what I'd like to do (getting the game on sites like itch.io or gamejolt).
As for the installer, I can't really verify that users are online while starting it (provided I'd be able to set it up to download the ZIP from somewhere, which I'm not :D Not a programmer, sadly.)
Telling players to go somewhere else first and get familiar with another program to play a game is also less than ideal, since many players would just skip to another game entirely. So I'd loose too much interest by 'making it extra-hard' to play the game.

:?: Are there other editors able to compile the game in a way so that a casual user can just 'double-click and play the game'?

Thanks!
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Gambit37
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Re: Standalone distribution?

Post by Gambit37 »

I don't think DSB is suited to deploying on indie game sites. Someone asked this a while back and I recall Sophia didn't really recommend it. Not least because it then opens up a huge can of worms regarding end-user support. Who supports players who have problems? You? Sophia? It's a minefield and not one I'd recommend entering!

If you really want to make games to distribute in that way, I would suggest using a game engine that already makes it easy. Much as I'd hate to dissuade anyone from using DSB (because I think it's brilliant), if your end goal is wide distribution then a newer more suitable engine would be a much better decision all round.
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meadwarrior
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Re: Standalone distribution?

Post by meadwarrior »

The support question is actually quite easy, especially with an .exe file. Similar to, let's say, a Unity game, the devs are responsible for technically supporting their players - since the players use the end product made with Unity, and not Unity itself.

I forgot to add that I intended to distribute the game for free, which would mitigate a lot of potential troubles. No money, no trouble :D

And I think DSB is particularly well-suited for small indie-devs like me!
It's easy to use (at least in its base form) and does a lot of things for you, which is optimal for users like me who can't code.
What I've seen so far, it kinda goes in the same direction as engines like RPG Maker or Stencyl that give you a base to work with which you can then custom-tail to suit your needs. Which, again, I think is great.
Other engines might be even easier to use, but I so far, I haven't found one that is which isn't discontinued.

:?: Might I ask whether Sophia is still active in these forums, or how often?
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Gambit37
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Re: Standalone distribution?

Post by Gambit37 »

Sophia does pop up from time to time, but like most of us, it's pretty random. I'm only here frequently at the moment because I'm between jobs. I start a new job in January, so I expect my presence to be much less frequent next year. But I do check in when I can and will help if I have time.
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meadwarrior
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Re: Standalone distribution?

Post by meadwarrior »

Thanks, that's good to hear and I'm very thankful for your help!
I guess I'll play around with DSB for now. More questions will most likely pop up (although I'm not trying anything too complicated) ;)
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Re: Standalone distribution?

Post by Sophia »

One of the biggest problems plaguing any sort of wider distribution of DSB is the legal grey area that its graphics and sounds assets occupy. The original creators of those assets are aware of what we're doing and don't really care, but that's not the same as actually being legally allowed do it.
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meadwarrior
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Re: Standalone distribution?

Post by meadwarrior »

Hello Sophia, nice to meet you!
Sophia wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:52 pm One of the biggest problems plaguing any sort of wider distribution of DSB is the legal grey area that its graphics and sounds assets occupy. The original creators of those assets are aware of what we're doing and don't really care, but that's not the same as actually being legally allowed do it.
My plan is to replace every graphic, sound and font there is to have a distint, original game that plays like DM but looks and sounds differently.
I'm aware that there are some graphics that can't be replaced that easily, though, but if somebody managed to replace them as well - would that suffice for the new game being 'legal'?

I found the thread Gambit was talking about (I think it's this one here).
May I ask if you if you still feel the same about what you said in it:
Sophia wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 2:19 am (That said, if you have a project with an actual budget that could reuse some DSB code and you're looking for a programmer who is very familiar with it, let's talk!)
:arrow: I'm asking because I do plan to do a project with an actual budget (albeit an indie-type one) using DSB and I am looking for a programmer who is very familiar with it! ;)

And that here would go without saying:
Sophia wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 2:14 am If you still want to use DSB, then go for it, I guess. (Just so it's out there, I will also add that I am in no way responsible or liable for any trouble you might end up getting into if you accidentally fail to to remove all FTL content from DSB)
All I ask is that you credit me for DSB, and call me first if you ever do need to hire a programmer.
So, in a nutshell:
:?: How big of a budget would I have to think about to make a DSB game legally and easily distributable?
(PMs welcome, of course)

Thanks!
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Re: Standalone distribution?

Post by Sophia »

DSB 0.70 is out now, which has new configuration files that should make replacing graphics and sounds easier. See this post for details.

Anyway, the reason I said "reuse some DSB code" rather than "use DSB" in that other thread is the DSB engine is kind of old and obsolete, and the scope of changes required means a shiny new project intended for independent distribution will probably end up actually more like a newly developed game. As I noted earlier in the linked thread, DSB is stuck doing software rendering at 480p, so a comprehensive update that makes the game engine able to run at 720p/1080p and able to take advantage of OpenGL may be advantageous if you're using fancy new graphics and looking to wow a modern audience. You may also potentially want to get rid of (or at least update) FMOD, because it's old and proprietary. This would be a pretty big task, of course.

On the other hand, maybe big engine updates are a bit much and all you want to do is just distribute a standalone version of the DSB engine with your own game's name on it and your own graphics and sounds and whatever. So before I get ahead of myself it's probably best to figure out what you actually want me to do above and beyond what I'm already doing with DSB. (And what I'm already doing can of course be had with a budget of $0, because I'm cool like that :mrgreen: )
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meadwarrior
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Re: Standalone distribution?

Post by meadwarrior »

Sophia wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:17 pm DSB 0.70 is out now, which has new configuration files that should make replacing graphics and sounds easier.
Perfect! Thank you.
Sophia wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:17 pm On the other hand, maybe big engine updates are a bit much and all you want to do is just distribute a standalone version of the DSB engine with your own game's name on it and your own graphics and sounds and whatever. So before I get ahead of myself it's probably best to figure out what you actually want me to do above and beyond what I'm already doing with DSB. (And what I'm already doing can of course be had with a budget of $0, because I'm cool like that :mrgreen: )
You're awesome and your engine is pretty fine as well. I definitely want to use DSB as it is now.
It's exactly as you described, being able to distribute a custom game with my own graphics/sounds would be ace.

:arrow: Best case scenario:
The distributed game is one single .exe file (with a custom icon). Upon double-click, the game starts immidiately with the dsb.ini settings(no installs).
Save games could be placed in the folder the .exe is in.

:arrow: Close second best case:
The game is distributed in a folder with an .exe file in it (and the other files & folders the game needs, preferably obfuscated and as few as possible).

The goal here is definitely ease of use for the player. Download, start, play.

:?: Would either one of these scenarios be possible? Or any other one that enables a convenient game start?

Thanks!
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