Max level size

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ebeneezergude
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Max level size

Post by ebeneezergude »

Has anyone pushed rtc to the max in terms of level size? By this I mean setting the level 'dimensions'. Ie a 32x32 tile level is somewhat standard. This can be set higher, but how much higher can it go? Has anyone pushed this to any sort of limit?

And regarding offsets - ie, the offset of a level in comparison to the default position of any given level - how far can you push these? Clearly if you have several large levels, say 64x64 or greater, and these are offset by say 60 tiles each direction, , potentially you have a large playing area, over multiple levels, of approx 180 tiles square in this hypothetical example.

At what point does rtc get stretched to breaking point? Anyone got any experiences/advice?

Thanks :D
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Re: Max level size

Post by terkio »

RTCeditor says: Level should be 1-200 tiles in size
To change level size: Do Level/Edit
Width = 200, Lenght = 200 is accepted. While 201 tells it should be 1-200

Offset is up to 32762 with no control about overflow. 32763 is accepted but changed into -32773

Offset range is [ -32773 +32762 ] with wrap around.
Last edited by terkio on Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Max level size

Post by ebeneezergude »

Thanks Terkio. ( Am not able to reach rtc as is write this. ) What about offsets? Can you offset a 200 tile level by 199 tile over a second 200 tile level? This would give a superimposed game area of say 399 tiles.
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Re: Max level size

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

going over 60x60 is not a good idea if you want to target something, that screen is so small that the triggers and relays disappear, you'd have to make sure that all relays triggers are uniquely named and then programmed on a level that is smaller. I tried it and it's difficult. I suggest stay around 50x50 tiles and just add other levels to that level using tricks such as the teleporters, make the player believe they are on the same level. I am not sure how much offset can be used but I do know that if pits and stairs are involved that it is very difficult to do.
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Re: Max level size

Post by terkio »

offsets larger than Width or Lenght are not usefull.
I think there is no constraint for offset values that make sense.
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Re: Max level size

Post by ebeneezergude »

Thanks all for responses. Yes, Chaos, the teleports workaround was what I was thinking about after Terkio's first post..! It seems the only way if a level is that big.
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Re: Max level size

Post by Trantor »

My Doom Blade dungeon uses 75 x 98 levels, and I can only confirm what Chaos_Shaman wrote: It's very painful editing levels of this size since you can't really see anything when pointing at targets of triggers.
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Re: Max level size

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

I doubt that many would want to make such a huge dungeon or could finish it either. 10 to 20 levels should be enough, then add continuations afterward like what Seriously Unserious is doing. I bet GG has or could fix this to allow for larger level designing. I bet that he has worked on this already. how long do we have to wait to see the next release, well, since I know there is one already, I can't say what he's thinking, I just know that he's most likely worked on it. soon, the Oracle will only say soon.
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Re: Max level size

Post by ebeneezergude »

It's not so much that I was thinking to make a huge dungeon, more of a spread out one, if that makes sense. Just trying out some plot ideas for size ('scuse the pun....). Teleporters would be the only way to go with one particular concept in mind.
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Re: Max level size

Post by Trantor »

Yeah, Doom Blade is of the "spread out" variety, too. The outdoor scenario is pretty huge, so the different caves etc. are spread out all over the place. Take a look at the text file if you'd like to see what I mean.
For your dungeon, I suggest teleporters, too. The player won't notice, and it will keep your dungeon a lot clearer for you and easier to design.
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Re: Max level size

Post by ebeneezergude »

Hey Trantor, thanks for the link to the txt file, it's very interesting to view that, really appreciate you sharing it. :) I can see what you mean about the outdoor scenarios.

Chaos/Trantor, I have set up a test dungeon, creating a cloned standard door frame floor object, modified to use the base stair graphics, to mimic a stair object.

This object does not obstruct the player when moved onto. It is combined on a floor tile with a teleporter, which leads to another part of the same level. The idea is to simulate walking up or down a stair to another level, but actually the player stays on the same dungeon level. Obviously the player does not actually move up or down a level, but the visual effect is such that it appears as if you have.

This works great, but, the issue is, you can't be on the stair and rotate left or right to see the side of the stair (the SIDE0 stair graphic), as you would on a real stair floor object, because you can't teleport directly onto another teleporter.

i don't know of another wat to simulate a real stair by cloning another object. Any ideas? Have either of you guys tried this before? Or, will no-one ever notice that you cant rotate/turn on a stair....??

The basic difference is that on a real stair you stay on the same X,Y grid co-ordinate, but just change levels, say from level 1 to 2, but in my simulated stair, you need to teleport to the tile just in front of the "upper" or "lower" level's simulated stair. This is to avoid a teleporter infinite loop which crashes RTC. Therfore you appear in front of the stair, not on it, therefore you can't rotate on the stair itself as you would using a standard DM stair object. If this doesn't make sense, just fire up a standard DM/CSB level and walk onto a stair and then turn left or right to see what I mean.

Sorry for the big post, maybe a small problem.... but it's bugging me I can't achieve the simulated stair object to mimic a real stair in every sense.

The reason for all this is because I want to create a spread out dungeon, to mostly appear to occur on many multiple levels, without having to create many intermediate levels in RTC to accommodate these small bits of dungeon on multiple levels. The theory is to use one level to store multiple bits of level. I call it 'Levels on a Level'. Any ides much appreciated!
Last edited by ebeneezergude on Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Max level size

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

not something to worry about. it's not that much a big deal. when it comes to creating an effect with graphics, all is possible. you can fake anything ;)
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Re: Max level size

Post by Sophia »

If you're set on using RTC, then I can't help you.
I'll just point out that DSB stairs are able to be targeted like teleporters which would make doing this absolutely trivial.
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Re: Max level size

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

Sophia wrote:If you're set on using RTC, then I can't help you.
I'll just point out that DSB stairs are able to be targeted like teleporters which would make doing this absolutely trivial.
?
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Re: Max level size

Post by Seriously Unserious »

@ebeneezergude: What you're talking about with the simulated stairs should be doable without too much hassle in RTC. You're already most of the way there with the setup you described in your long post. I did a similar type of idea in a test dungeon myself, only in my case it was with triggers at the top and bottom of a flight of stairs, but what you want sounds like basically the same sort of principle.

So basically what you need to do next is set your "stair teleporters" to toggle on and off on an offsetting pattern. To achieve this you could have a trigger next to the simulated stairs on each end, ie one in front of the "top", 1 in front of the "bottom". The trigger on the near side would be inactive and the teleporter active, while the teleporter on the far side of the stairs would be inactive and the trigger active. So each teleporter could then move the party to either the "top" or "bottom" of the stairs, depending on where the party started out. When the party stops off of the stairs, actually, I just realized we're making this way more complicated then it needs to be.

Everyting's all on the same level, right? So all you're doing is faking moving up/down a level, so you can easily simulate this with graphics alone, and ditch the teleporters. What you'd need is a Stairs_Top object and a Stairs_bottom object, one with the graphics of the top of a flight of stairs and the other with the graphics of the bottom of a flight of stairs. The party then goes "up" or "down" the stairs by simply moving normally. You can then add any graphics you need to simulate the party standing sideways on the stairs with the stairs going up or down from the party depending on where on the stairs the party is at the time.

So basically, you shouldn't need the teleporters to simulate the stairs unless the party is actually changing levels.
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Re: Max level size

Post by ebeneezergude »

Seriously Unserious wrote:actually, I just realized we're making this way more complicated then it needs to be.

Everyting's all on the same level, right? So all you're doing is faking moving up/down a level, so you can easily simulate this with graphics alone, and ditch the teleporters. What you'd need is a Stairs_Top object and a Stairs_bottom object, one with the graphics of the top of a flight of stairs and the other with the graphics of the bottom of a flight of stairs. The party then goes "up" or "down" the stairs by simply moving normally. You can then add any graphics you need to simulate the party standing sideways on the stairs with the stairs going up or down from the party depending on where on the stairs the party is at the time.

So basically, you shouldn't need the teleporters to simulate the stairs unless the party is actually changing levels.
Hey SU, thanks for the response, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying... could you elaborate?

Also, my post wasn't clear enough, it was in fact inaccurate....what I should have said was that when you're on a stair in DM, and you rotate left or right, DM actually rotates you by 180 degrees, not 90 degrees, when you're on the stair itself. So you flip between a Front0 graphic for top of stair object, and Front0 for bottom of stair object, not a Side0 graphic as my earlier post suggested. Sorry for the incorrect post, next time you're in DM and are on a stair, just try this and you'll see what I mean.
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Re: Max level size

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

it is not such a bad thing really, it stops the player from looking to see what's there forcing them to step forward and get clobbered, otherwise the player can stair suck and run up or down because they're too damn chicken to step forward and have a good look like a real knight would. this is not an issue in that perspective. I do not see the how this view is all that useful but it can be faked, it doesn't have to be real stairs, just a mock up with a couple of triggers with two teleporters. I wouldn't bother because it is really not that significant, it's better to clobber the player :twisted:
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Re: Max level size

Post by Seriously Unserious »

@Ebeneezergude: I reread your earlier post and realized I'd misread what you wanted to do, so the explanation I'd originally started is the right one after all.
Here's a recap of the first part of my explanation:
So basically what you need to do next is set your "stair teleporters" to toggle on and off on an offsetting pattern. To achieve this you could have a trigger next to the simulated stairs on each end, ie one in front of the "top", 1 in front of the "bottom". The trigger on the near side would be inactive and the teleporter active, while the teleporter on the far side of the stairs would be inactive and the trigger active. So each teleporter could then move the party to either the "top" or "bottom" of the stairs, depending on where the party started out. When the party steps off of the stairs,
:
OK, so when the party steps off the stairs, the activate the trigger and it toggles both teleporters and both triggers, so the teleporter at the other end of the stairs and the trigger the party just are no longer inactive and the trigger on the other side of the stairs and the teleporter on the near side are now both active. This way you can avoid the infinite teleporter loop by having only 1 teleporter active at a time.

Here's the idea of the basic setup:
(1) Teleporter_Bottom - Destination: Top of Stairs, Initial State: Active, Rotation: turn party so they're facing away from the stairs
(2) Teleporter_Top - Destination: Bottom of Stairs, Initial State: Inactive, Rotation: turn party so they're facing away from the stairs
(3) Trigger_Bottom - Action: Toggle, Targets: Teleporter_Bottom, Teleporter_Top, Trigger_Bottom, Trigger_Top, Op_By: Party
(4) Trigger_Top- Action: Toggle, Targets: Teleporter_Bottom, Teleporter_Top, Trigger_Bottom, Trigger_Top, Op_By: Party
(\) Fake Stairs Up
(/) Fake Stairs Down
(_) Wall
(P) - Party start location

So, to do a basic ASCII map of what I'm talking about:

Code: Select all

___      ____
42/        \13 P
__        ____
So when the party steps on 3, nothing happens, that trigger is inactive, when the party steps forward again, onto 1, the teleporter teleports the party to 2. On 2 nothing happens, that teleporter is inactive. When the party steps on 4, both teleporters and triggers are toggled so now 2 and 3 are active while 4 and 1 are now inactive.

OK, but what if the party goes up the stairs and without stepping on 4 wants to go back down? well, you can add an extra couple of teleporters, and an extra couple of triggers to make that possible.

The extras would work like this
(5) Teleporter_Top_2 - Destination: Bottom of Stairs, Initial State: Active + Fake Stairs Down
(6) Teleporter_Bottom_2 - Destination: Top of Stairs, Initial State: Active + Fake Stairs Up
(1) add: Trigger_Bottom_1 - Action: Activate, Targets: Teleporter_Bottom, Op_By: Party, Direction: Whenever party is facing left of the stairs, Constant Pressure: True
(1) add: Trigger_Bottom_2 - Action: Activate, Targets: Teleporter_Bottom, Op_By: Party, Direction: Whenever party is facing right of the stairs, Constant Pressure: True
(2) add: Trigger_Top_1 - Action: Activate, Targets: Teleporter_Top, Op_By: Party, Direction: Whenever party is facing left of the stairs, Constant Pressure: True
(2) add: Trigger_Top_2 - Action: Activate, Targets: Teleporter_Top, Op_By: Party, Direction: Whenever party is facing right of the stairs, Constant Pressure: True

So now the example ASCII map looks more like this:

Code: Select all

___       ___
425       613 P
__         ___
So now, not only will the party be teleported to the top of the stairs whenever the party enters the bottom of the stairs, but if the party is standing on the bottom of the stairs and turns around, they'll be automatically teleported to the top, and if the party backs up a step while facing away from the stairs they'll automatically be sent to the top and rotated so their back is to the stairs leading down. While at the top if the party turns, they'll be teleported back down to the bottom, if the party backs up while facing away from the stairs, they'll be sent back down to the bottom of the stiars and rotated so their backs are to the stairs leading up.

Now you should have fake stairs that behave in all visible ways exactly like real stairs.
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Re: Max level size

Post by ebeneezergude »

Hey SU, thanks so much for the in depth explanation, really appreciate it. Will give this a go over the next few days. It looks quite complex, but from reading this I have learnt the principle of triggers and toggling to avoid the infinite teleporter crash, which is good. Will let you know how I get on.
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Re: Max level size

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Yeah, looking back at that description it does look complex but don't worry, once you get used to the methods it will become quite simple to you.
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Re: Max level size

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

yes, sometimes just the action with no description is easier to understand, then when someone asks we then provide a more detailed description. that's why I like the GUI in RTC, it gets rid of all that text and puts it to a visual which I need for quick understanding, it beats trying to read two paragraphs of description, at least for me it does. when I first saw some of the descriptions for RTC I have to admit I was lost, but when I used it with the GUI those words disappeared. just made it easier for me. I'd love to see a 3d engine that can do the same as RTC, I'd be in love right away.
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Re: Max level size

Post by Seriously Unserious »

*SIng-Song voice* Cha-os-Sham-an, Si-ting in an tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g... :P
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Re: Max level size

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

yeah, I doubt many could remove me from the computer if it were to happen, I'd be one of those geeks melted into their chair with 5mm of grease in their hair, giant soda pimples pulsating on every facial movement, keyboard missing its letters with the GUI burnt right onto the screen, yes, I'd be in trouble :lol:
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Re: Max level size

Post by ebeneezergude »

SU, if the party throws an object at the stair, how do I stop the object crossing through the stair? Ie how do I make it land in front of the stair whilst the party can step 'into' the stair object to get into the teleporter? I can't figure this out. The stair object I created clones a Doorframe object as a basis. Thanks! :)
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Re: Max level size

Post by Seriously Unserious »

one option would be to hide a wall or other object on the tile behind the stairs and have a trigger activated by any item resting on that floor tile teleporting the item to the tile in front of the bottom of the stairs. This should work both for thrown items landing on the stairs and items placed on the stairs tile by the party. The teleporter should teleport only items and the trigger should have the constant pressure option activated so the teleporter automatically turns off when there's not an item on the floor in need of being teleported.

In fact, a wall tile would work perfectly as it would also show up on magic maps, making the "fake" stairs look normal. I could also see using your fake stairs as actual fake stairs, ie it looks like there's stairs there but the party walks right through them as if they're not there, just like a fake wall works. Fake doors and fake pillars could similarly be manufactured, if you want to make a really devious dungeon. :twisted:
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Re: Max level size

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

might as well fake the whole thing :) sometimes fake is better :lol: in todays world fake is real and real is now fake.
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