Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Help!!!

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Saumun
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Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Help!!!

Post by Saumun »

I was just in the middle of building my new dungeon, when i got an access violation exception every time i tried to place an object anywhere...
I really, really, really hope i'm wrong, but i think i've hit an object limit that i was not aware of.
if i delete another object, then i can place one and then get the AVE again when i try to place another.

Is there a limit, or is this something else?

This is the AVE:

RTC Editor (V0.49) Diagnostic file - Sat Feb 28 17:33:39 2015

Error:
an access violation exception.

Stack Dump:
RTCModule.RemoveItemFromTile(int 0, pointer 0x0012F34F, pointer 0x0012F34E, pointer 0x0012F34D);
RTCEditDlgEdit.OnButtonAdd();
RTCEditView.OnEditEdit();
RTCEditApp.WinMain();

Please HELP!
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Gambit37 »

Hi, there are definite object limits but I can't remember what they are. George never thought anyone would reach them though. Sounds like you might have found that limit! How big is your dungeon?
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Adamski had the same problem with Tower of Champions, but I don't know the details... Read there: http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 36#p101398
According to the dates, it was probably occuring with RTC 0.49.
I have the source files of ToC, it's really huge. The .txt file is 2443 ko, there are 17 levels, none bigger than 35x35. So, many objects.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

Despondent doesn't even cover it... I'm totally crestfallen.
Yes... The dungeon is big. Very big, but when i initially read in one of the html docs that came with v0.49 that there was an impossibly high limit to the amount of levels (10,000ish?)... i thought you'd be able to lay a virtually unlimited number of objects.
I can still place wall objects and mechanics, and can still create objects and add bitmaps.... Just cannot place anything on the floor (objects, mechanics, or monsters).

I now have a quandary. I have tentatively started seeing what i can remove/adjust/make simpler, but i could spend an enormous amount of time doing that and still not have enough objects to finish the dungeon.
Unfortunately (due to a far from standard level layout), splitting the game into two halves is not really an option.

The txt file is around the same size as Igor mentioned in the last post.
Don't really have many options, but whichever i choose is going to take up a great deal of time.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

I can understand the pain...
Well, I don't want to make it even worse, but if you've read what Adamski said in the next messages, he also had freezes when items were created in game. My guess is: for example if you have a dungeon that just reaches the objects limit, let's say 10 000, and if there are barrels that you can break during the game and that turn into several planks, then the player may get 10 001 items and a game freezing... I guess you'd better test this now so you know exactly what problems you have to face...
Are you sure you can't take out some whole parts of your dungeon? I think that would be the easiest -and probably less destructive- solution. I hardly imagine such a big dungeon with everything interdependent, I first would really try looking at what I could seperate from the rest.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

I have made a start on seeing what i can take out, but i think you're probably correct. It looks like i may need to shed some large sections, as the parts i'm working on at the moment are some of the most important in the game.
That is not to say that some of the puzzles cannot be simplified. I have just made a puzzle that had ten triggers and ten teleports work the same way with just one of each. Took a bit of lateral thinking, but i got there in the end. However, there will not be enough instances like this to release enough objects for the last 15%.

As i mentioned earlier, trying to change the layout at this point (approx 85% complete) would be tantamount to scrapping the whole thing and starting again.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by terkio »

Monster generators, infinite food, are prone to make trouble. Will it crash when too many monster or food are created ? I have not seen trouble when creating large amount of food, but who knows how far was the limit.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

I didn't realise until reading the thread about ToC, but if it is the case that going over the limit even 'in-game' causes problems, then monster generators and food producing monsters are going to be a tricky proposition.

Last night i deleted around 100 triggers in a section that i felt the dungeon didn't really need. Hopefully i can find much more. i think with careful planning it can be done without losing too much of the game.
I still have the txt file with the object number right on the limit. I think i'll throw in a monster generator and test it to see what happens.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

Apologies for the double post here, but i've just finished testing the object limit...

Anything created 'in-game' that takes it over the limit, does indeed cause a crash. This goes for both monsters and objects. I set it up with 3 monster generators and a trigger taking the count to the exact limit. The subsequent creation of the monsters 'in-game' caused an immediate crash.
I did a little playing around with the object count set just below the limit, and killing food producing monsters (which caused a crash with the amount of food created by the monster death).

So it seems there is no way around this limit. It is very definite and the creation of anything while playing the game that exceeds it is catastrophic.
I am going to have to be very careful in this dungeon. Even when i've deleted enough objects to build the rest of the dungeon, it is going to be close to the object limit. So i guess when i finally finish it, i'll have to delete another swathe of objects to make sure the game doesn't crash.
Of course the repeated consumption of food through the game reduces this count, but the margins for error on my part would be wide since some players will use up more food than others.

Ho hum... Back to the grindstone then.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Good to know...
You can try destroying all the triggers, relays, etc in game as soon as they've done their work and are not useful anymore. And if by chance there are some parts of your dungeon that are not accessible after some point, you can destroy everything inside. It might help... But well, you would have to add destroying relays (that should be destroyed as well).
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by terkio »

Indeed, it might help to use dynamic monsters/items create/destroy.
I guess, working close below the limit will be unsafe.
Is there a way to test, in order to take preventing action when the limit is going to be exceeded ? I am afraid not !
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

I was thinking along the same lines.
I usually destroy stuff when no longer needed. There are very few monster generators in this dungeon, and the ones that are get destroyed once they've served their purpose. Also... with monsters dying and food getting consumed right from the start, the overall number will be getting continually reduced.
As a rule, i also destroy movable/invisible walls rather than disabling them.

Just a case now of finding enough to delete to finish the dungeon. I've currently got rid of 335 objects/triggers/floor items. Surprising what you can find.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

I've just completed a test regarding this...

I set up a lot of nice, straight, easily countable rows... and then started pasting apples four at at time.

... and the RTC object limit is, da da daahhh........ 19,995.

This is for all usable objects, floor objects, floor mechanics, monsters, and some wall objects. After this point i could still place wall mechanics and some wall objects. For example... i could place a hook, ring, or even a switch on the wall, but not an alcove. The alcove caused a terminal error (presumably because it can hold an object).
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

interesting read Saumun.

i think it would be best to have any non important items to have a time limit. there are plenty of alternatives to fix the problem. the need for food reduced, can have a relay check to make sure only so much food is available at any one time, same with daggers and so forth. i was unaware of the limit, figured there would be something like that to pop up, i asked the question some time ago. good to know it.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

Turns out (due to some very weird behaviour in RTC... which i will explain) that the last post was only partially correct.

The object limit IS 19,995 (might at well call it 20,000), but this is for ALL objects... Floor and Wall.

I was thrown by some strange things after i reached the limit. When it first happened, i did a few tests to find out what exactly would be allowed. RTC still allowed me to place a couple of switches and relays, so i thought that certain wall objects/mechanics were not included in the limit. I then created a trigger and 3 monster generators (dragons) that took the object count to the limit, and started RTC. When i stepped on the trigger, the dragons were created without a problem (taking the count over the limit). It crashed after i killed a dragon (and thus creating steaks).

After this i changed the monster generators from dragons to oitus. This time it crashed as soon as i stepped on the trigger. i had done a little tinkering between these tests and reasoned that i must have had the count wrong on the first occasion (now i'm not so sure).

I then did the new dungeon with just sets of 4 apples copy/pasted until the limit was reached. After this, i was still allowed to place some relays and wall objects.

Satisfied with this, i returned to my original dungeon. I immediately deleted around 300 unnecessary objects and then finished a puzzle i was working on. The puzzle only had a handful of triggers and teleports, but i was horrified to discover that i had lost around 70 objects (i had set up an apple count in my proper dungeon). The only other things i had placed were relays which i thought would not affect the count. I then reopened the new apple count dungeon and tried to place a relay. It crashed!

So... plenty of weird things going on that i cannot explain, but for all practical purposes the 20,000 limit is for ALL OBJECTS... Monsters, Floor objects/mechanics and wall objects/mechanics.

Anyone planning a big dungeon in RTC beware!
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by terkio »

I would not even trust that deleting items actually enables creating more as expected.
Who knows what the limit is, could be something more involved than just a number. Some descriptors, pointers not released properly on a delete.
It is easy to create, much more involved to delete corectly. When flawed that gives systems that wear off, swallowing ressources over time, then asking for a restart or worse,a reinstall.
Ever heard of memory leaks ?
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Paul Stevens »

I was thrown by some strange things after i reached the limit.
You have to understand that 'strange' is totally normal.
The program is crashing because there is no 'limit'.
If there were a 'limit' then the program would politely
die with suitable error message. So it is dying because
something is going wrong and what exactly goes wrong
is dependent on the order that things occur, the time-
of-day, and even on the actions of other programs.
In general, there is no way to reproduce these exact
conditions more than once.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Saumun wrote: i was horrified to discover that i had lost around 70 objects (i had set up an apple count in my proper dungeon).
I don't understand what you mean there. Do you have a technique for counting all types of objects in your main dungeon?

I think there is some sort of limit, especially if the crashes always occur at about 20 000 objects. Do you include the objects in the clipboard when counting?
It could be useful to have several people doing these tests to see if we all get the same results, at least approximately. I started it but well... Pasting 5 000 items at the same time was a bad idea, it took like forever. At least it doesn't freeze the whole computer. I'll look into this when I have time.
Also, it should be easy to test if items deletion is really useful: reach the limit in game, activate a relay destroying several objects and then a generator creating one item several times to see if the same limit can be reached.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Paul Stevens »

I think there is some sort of limit, especially if the crashes always occur at about 20 000 objects
There is obvious a limit in the same sense that a bicycle
has a limit to the number of people that can pile on before
it breaks. But that limit depends on how fat they are, whether
they jump up and down, etc. It is not an absolute number.

In the case of RTC, I suspect that an array has room for
20,000 entries. When that number is exceeded, what happens
depends on what is in memory just beyond the end, when it is
used, etc. For example, it might happen that initialization
data occupies that memory and will never be used again. Then
the program will not crash until the initialization data is totally
overwritten and the next area of memory is 'trashed'. Or that
memory might be used to store wall graphics, in which case the
display might go sour.

This sort of bug is exploited by virus software to cause other rather
unwanted effects. Perhaps you can place apples in the dungeon to
cause RTC to send SPAM email. :wink:
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by terkio »

I found a limit lower than 20 000
I copy pasted a tile containing 48 apples ( 12 NW + 12 NE + 12 SW + 12 SE ).
Up to 340 tiles ( 16 320 apples ) so far so good.
Then more "paste" is refused....... No way to paste 48 apples more.
Deleting 48 apples, enables pasting 48 apples.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

Terkio
As far as i can tell at the moment, destroying objects 'in-game' does seem to work. If i start the game with the objects right on the limit, it crashes as soon as something is created. I've also tried starting the game with the object count again on the limit, but then eaten 10 pieces of food. The game then allowed 10 objects to be created before it crashed.
I cannot conclusively say the limit is absolute, but apart from a few quirks (the dragons mentioned above for one) it seems to be.

Paul
There is an error message and diagnostic file created whenever it crashes (see original post), but i'm not very savvy as regards these things. There is a mention of 'remove item from tile', but i don't understand the rest of it.

Igor
No technique as such as regards different object types. I simply created a new dungeon, filled it with horizontal corridors and then copy/pasted apples on the floor tiles 4 at a time until it would let me place no more. No wall objects at the time. After pasting 19,994, the final paste placed a single apple in the northwest corner of that tile. After this i could put no more objects on the floor. If i tried to place something with edit/add, it crashed the editor. After this i created a couple of relays, switches, and rings/hooks/etc... this did NOT crash the editor at the time (and so i thought there must be something in the engine that discounts certain objects). However, after i closed the editor and restarted it... it crashed the first time (and all subsequent times) i tried to create a wall object or mechanic.

The part you refer to in the last post... I had deleted around 300 objects in my proper dungeon, and set up the same apple counting thing so i'd always know how many objects i had left to use. I pasted apples up to the limit and then deleted 100 of them (thinking i'd have 100 floor objects/mechanics to work with in the puzzle i was finishing). I used around 15 triggers and teleports and 55 relays. At the time i thought the limit didn't pertain to wall objects (as explained above). And so.... when i went back to the apple pasting, i hit the limit after 30 because the relays were part of the object count.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

Arrrgh! Missed the edit already...

This is the text file for the dungeon full of apples... perhaps someone could try it in their editor and post the results.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/ghtnuu29b ... _Count.txt

There are 19,996 apples on the floor in blocks of 80 (don't ask). I previously said 19,995. Obviously my accuracy is not what it should be, but my anal retentiveness is spot on. I've just tried it again, and from this point i could place no floor objects but 2 wall objects.
On other occasions the first wall object caused a crash, and on another occasion it let me place 5 wall objects before the crash.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Weird, I have some apples stuck in walls in your file... Anyway, I can open it.
If I have 4 apples in my clipboard, I can't add one single apple.
If I have only one apple in my clipboard, I still can add 2 apples (so the total is 19996 + 2 + 1 in the clipboard=19999 apples). I can't even add a single wall object without getting a crash then.

I started a test dungeon from scratch as well, I pretty much have the exact same limit, somewhere just under 20000, I'll test it more. I'll try having switches, looped relays and creatures and all to see if it's really an absolute limit on the number or, as Paul said, something more complicated, but I still believe it's an absolute limit that GG defined.

Terkio: are you sure about your limit being about 16300? If so, we don't all have the same limit and that's very problematic... Dungeon designers don't really have to know the exact limit, but knowing it's about 20 000 for everyone and not 16 500 can be important.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

Immediately before uploading the text file, i tried again. I could place NO apples, but 2 wall objects.

As i posted my previous message, Paul and Terkio had also posted before i refreshed so i had not seen Paul's message regarding memory, or Terkio's about the lower limit.

Although i'm not clued-in to this kind of thing, i'd imagine Paul's explanation would account for the slight differences each time.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Well, here's my test dungeon: http://www.mediafire.com/view/cqgqz0h20 ... _limit.txt It's less readable, having sometimes 500 items on the same tile, so you'll have to trust me: it has 7500+7500+4500=19500 sets of [corns, apples, cheeses, flasks] plus 400 botas plus 80 steaks for a total of 19980 basic items. Plus 2 creatures, 6 door related objects, 6 relays, 2 switches and 2 stairs. Total: 19998 objects. I still can add 1 object (not copy and paste, nor copy and add: the objects in the clipboard definitely count).

I have the same limit in-game and everything counts exactly the same: one corn, one creature, one creature steak, one switch, one relay or one fireball, they all count for one object. After eating stuff or destroying relays, I can create more food from the creatures, and I still have the 19 999 objects as a limit. No matter if the relays are activated (they are looped), no matter if I see thousands of items on the floor, no matter if I change the lighting or if I open/close doors, no matter if I add floor tiles, the objects limit is always the same, so I'm pretty sure GG fixed a limited number of objects, and that this all has nothing to do with memory problems.

I don't know exactly why you're not always having exactly the same 19999 limit, but I'm pretty sure that's because your clipboard is not empty.

Now what I'm concerned with is Terkio's limit.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by terkio »

Your test is impressive.
I cannot find my mistake.
I do have 10 x 34 tiles ( to be sure I put them on a 35 x 11 level ) with 48 apples per tile. No way to paste another 48 apples. Adding does crash RTCeditor.
Sorry to bring bad news, I wish I am wrong, here is the file:
http://twinfalls.free.fr/apple16320.txt
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by terkio »

Good news, I was wrong. The limit is indeed at some 20 000.
With Notpad++, I found 19 939 apples in my apple16320.txt file. I must have made mistakes while pasting.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

I take the point about the clipboard, but at one point i started the editor with nothing on the clipboard and with 19,996 objects on the floor. It crashed when trying to add a single wall object (the first after starting the editor).
Anyway... To return to the original issue, as long as i'm working below the 20,000 everything seems okay. I managed to delete 1100 objects without seriously affecting the dungeon. I'm plodding on with it now. If i get close again, there are probably many relay sequences that i can simplify to release more objects.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

I should have looked at your new post before, Terkio: I found the same by looking in RTC:
Try editing the tile on (1,0,0): the apples references are numbered by steps of 1 from 100-1 to 100-60, which makes 60 apples. This is the same on most of the tiles, except on some tiles (9 on the first line) where there are only 12 apples and one (probably the last you made, on (29,7,0)) where there are 31 apples.
So there are (34*10-10)*60+9*12+31 apples. This makes 19939 apples. PLUS 60 in your clipboard when you try to copy and past one more tile of apples: 19999 apples.

In the end, I think we all have the same (which is good news): someone playing an RTC dungeon will get a crash if the number of objects (no matter what they are) gets higher than 19999. Well, I'll keep that in mind when finishing my own dungeon... And I hope you'll be able to keep the number under control in yours, Saumun.
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Re: Access Violation: Is there an object limit in RTC? Hel

Post by Saumun »

Cheers Igor... I'll manage it eventually.

I managed to delete the 1100 at a fairly broad stroke. I'm sure if look closely enough i'll be able to get rid of many more.
it's certainly forcing me to be more economical and efficient in the building process.
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