Rules discussion--

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beowuuf
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf » 20-Apr-12 07:03

Nah, i got the condensed skills from a 3.5 variant, then saw it was used in 4th with slightly more compression! So Wizards perhaps got the idea from what some comanies were doing anyway, or it had been in the air for a while - especially given the names ended up being the same!


I still think skill checks and that random element is important, they weren't sidelined in my game (I don't think!) I just like having the mechanics a little more abstract to give me narrative wiggle room. So it's nice to have a perception check and decide what that failure/success means (still within look/listen DC guidelines) than go that one step deeper and have to cross roll spot/listen to move silent/hide, etc. Since most of the skill checks get rolled in pairs at times anyway (listen/spot, move silent/hide, knowledge nature/survival, etc) It also means that partial bonues will always mean something. A small character with +4 to hide will always find that they might partially succeed in a a stealth check because of their small size and not be seen even if they are heard (rather than potentially ace a move silent roll they have no points in yet but completely fail a hide they were heavily bonused for), a sharp eyed character might still spot movement even if the tell tale slither of a snake bypassed their perception roll, etc.


And I was going to suggest the combined skill heading thing to Ameena aswell. As said, it's no more complicated than what I had, where you had additional bonues if the skill check was for one thing rather than another (I beleive your murafu has bonues for hiding when making stealth, and a bigger athletic bonues when swimming?)

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena » 20-Apr-12 10:06

Oh, I'll just keep the skills in straight alphabetical order 'cause that's easy enough to look through. I just figure it's unnecessarily complicated to have Hide and Move Silent, Spot and Listen, and so on, when you can just roll the condensed skill (Sneak or Perception, from the above examples) and have a mod depending on what it it you're trying to do. Mods might apply anyway if it's a cool idea or something - I mean, you might think of something really cool to try and then fail the roll and have your character penalised just because the die let you down, even though everyone thought your idea was really epic and would have been brilliant if it had passed. Okay, so yeah, if you fail a roll you are gonna get penalised, but I don't like having to roll for every little thing when you can just narratively describe it.
Anyway, my d20 tends to like me - it's d100 games that I seem to balls up on more. I rolled three 99s last night in Black Crusade, and the last one was a reroll of the second one!
Oops, time's up, gotta go to work, sorry gotta end this post here, lol.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel » 20-Apr-12 15:57

Beo:
Yeah. You were basically using mods to do the same thing I do. I like the presicion is all. Because the way I write the script, the knowlede in say a roll of Sssil that involves know nature and survival is two entirely seperate concepts. You can get synergy bonuses if applicable, but you cant get partial info about one using the other. If its just a "outdoors" roll (dunno what youd call combined), it really messes me up. Cuz in my head, the way I know how to play the game, is a certain way. So when I'm coming up with ideas and writing the script im thinking ok, know nature for this, survival for that. Then if someone starts rolling combined, I have to go "ok how much of this info do they get based on what their roll was" and try and figue it out and then it takes more time, and I get annoyed. Although I dont really have a problem with combining spot/search. I always think they shouldnt have been split anyway. But listen should be sepearte.

Ameena:
And I feel to have them condensed is unneccsarily simple cuz it allows for way less precision, and is basically "dumbing it down". Why even bother having more than 3 skills, then? Physical actions, Mental actions and Special actions? It would make it easier. Or like White Wolf where is pretty much all adjucated by the DM, and stats/dice play a very tiny part of the game cuz its all d6 success based. Personally, I guess its cuz I played 2nd till 2002, and even still occasionally play it now (I definately read all the books cuz as far as content/world building/ecology ect and not mechanics goes they are WAY better than anything 3rd ever put out-id recommend pickin em up at a used shop just for the ideas, you can still get the common ones pretty cheap, at least here), 3rd is *simple*. And 4th is like a child's version of the same game. Like D&d beginner or something.

But all thats a matter of opinion. And we could sit here arguing all day about it. Whats important is making sure the game is fun for everyone, regardless of the mechanics used. And I think I can make it fun, and narrate well much better when I'm using the system I knwo.

So can we agree to have em split, as written?

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf » 20-Apr-12 16:57

I'd vote for split :)


Oh, and have you heard the plans for 5th? The modular 'allow the feel of any version' style? If they can pull it off, you could maybe find people do play 2nd-style games again :)

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena » 20-Apr-12 19:34

I'd heard that 5th was in development, but that was a few months ago now and I've not looked into it since. So I dunno if anything more has been released about it or how it's gonna be compared to 4th or whatever.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf » 20-Apr-12 19:43

It will most liekly be in development for a year or two. But every week they are asking questions and taking poles, and there is a playtesting thing to sign up for that will eventually allow you to playtest the early versions and allow for feedback.

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by zoom » 20-Apr-12 20:36

Just wanted to drop by and say I've heard about these 5 th edition Plans, too .:) : O

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel » 20-Apr-12 23:20

Oooo! A visitor! Hi zoom!

My biggest concern is that HotC(see char creation thread for meaning) is gonna put out a new edition now every couple years, as a moneymaking scheme, thereby forcing dedicated players to spend upwards of (at least) 150$ on sourcebooks. without realizing that D&D doesnt quite work that way and people will just play old editions that they like if the new edition sucks and not spend any money on new books (I havent baought a new D&D book since 2009,I buy it all in the used bin or Half Price Books).

However, it could just be that 4th didnt sell well/isnt popular, as the only people that I found that play it/buy the stuff are people that were introduced to D&D through it. Most people I know, even that I don't play with, that are long time D&D players refuse to touch it. Lots of random discussion at game stores netted upwards of 50 ppl that dont like it, and (literally) 2 people (a couple) that does. And even they said they only like it for the bare rules. The way they screwed with the Great Wheel and published worlds sucks. Its interesting. 2nd was about 8 years, 3(.5) about 8 years, and 4th (probably) 4 or 5. And the switch from 2nd to 3rd was in the works, but really happened cuz of TSR going bankrupt and got bought. And then 4th was when Wizards of the Hasbro(or Hasbro of the Coast, we use both) came into being in '09. So, I wonder whats up.

On another note, I like a comic I found at ECCC(emerald city comic con). I emailed the authors and told them I love it, and that I was a giant D&D dork (its a panel a week webcomic that was written by longtime D&D dorks, for D&D dorks, with professional quality art -check it www.wayfarersmoon.com ) and a little bit about my gaming likes and dislikes. And they wrote back and agreed, and also said that a WotC rep stopped by and talked to them about 4th, and they discussed why longtime players didnt seem to like it. So, it seems like WotC is aware of the issues, at least.

I remember being so excited about 4th, and a friend bought the books the day they came out and my whole group got together and we all went WTF!? I just hope it doesnt happen again. A modular system that would work with both 3rd and 4th and maybe even 2nd would be awesome, though.

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by ian_scho » 21-Apr-12 06:50

I've started reading this.
www.wayfarersmoon.com

Thanks :)

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel » 21-Apr-12 07:58

ian_scho wrote:I've started reading this.
http://www.wayfarersmoon.com

Thanks :)
Cool! Hope you like it! Its got elves, hot peasant chicks, bandits, evil wizards, magic, weird races, and a dude with a face like a baboon! The creators said they made it cuz there isnt enough good oldschool high fantasy out there anymore, and I was hooked on the first 3 pages. (I bought the grapihc novel at the comic con, the creators sold me on it after a literal 3 min discussion)

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by ian_scho » 21-Apr-12 14:28

raixel wrote:
ian_scho wrote:...not enough good oldschool high fantasy out there anymore
A brilliant summary!

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena » 21-Apr-12 20:21

One thing on the skill thing, while I think of it, though not specifically connected to the split skills (well, maybe partially, I suppose) - you ahve Spot for seeing and Listen for hearing...but what if you want to detect something via another sense? For example, Ameena the murafu relied heavily on touch (via whiskers) and smell to find stuff out. How would you get around this when the only sensory skills are tailored to specific senses?
Actually, is there anyone who only gets Spot or Listen but not both? Maybe those could be condensed into "Perception" so it can apply to any sense? It seems a bit weird that they'd have a system where you don't account for half the senses - what if you were trying to check some food to see if it's poisoned - how would you taste or smell it to see if it seems a bit weird if there is no skill for that?
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf » 21-Apr-12 20:31

Spot and listen are not only seeing and hearing things (we all do) but understanding what that means, realising something wrong, etc. So detecting poisons would be more likely to be knowledge (nature) or survival for recognising the poison, or else the Dm would probably just say 'the food tastes weird' or 'the food tastes fine'. The other senses get covered under general wisdom (you aren't likely to professionally train your touch or smell). If your sense of smell is like Ameena's enough to determine something, that is more a survival skill for being able to track/identify (as per the track feat). The scent otherwise is a feat that atuo let you concentrate and now if somehting was close by concentrating (wind allowing)

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena » 21-Apr-12 20:36

Track is a Feat? Oh, I thought it was a skill...should probably lok through the full list, lol. It just seems weird to me that looking or listening for stuff is a skill, but smelling, tasting, and touching it aren't. Maybe that's why they made it into "Perception" later. Oh well, that's what it's all about though, right? Fluffing it when someone tries to do something the rules don't mention :D.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf » 21-Apr-12 20:56

Yup, you use survival to roll tracking, but the ability to track itself is a feat. Remember a skill is just a mechanic to allow you to say 'don't I see that/hear that'. Touch and taste are far less abstract, you will either feel something or not, and knowing what it is is a diffrent thing, and scent on a normal humanoid doens't mean anything, and scent on a creature that uses it to see is so powerful it basically is used like sight (ie you roll tracking with scent just like looking for tracks, and I think spot covers that side of perception if you have scent as a skill, but usually the ability bypasses the need to roll within a certain range

Edit:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilit ... Blindsense
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilit ... remorsense
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena » 21-Apr-12 21:34

Ahh, yeah that's true I suppose - something that works heavily on, say, scent, probably lacks another sense like sight...well, lacks it or it's poor enough that the other sense overshadows it.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel » 22-Apr-12 08:40

Yeah, although in my home campaign, track *is* a skill. Its part of Wilderness Lore, which we still use (no survival though. Its basically the same thing. But wilderness lore just sounds cooler!, and anyone can try and do it who has Wilderness Lore. The feat gives you a +4 bonus.

Honestly though, if a char such as Ameena used her whiskers more than her eyes for a specific instance , I'd still have her rolling spot and then just narrate it as if she was using whiskers instead of seeing. She might detect air movements, or vibrations or something. Detecting poison would *really* be circumstantial. Depends on the char (a rogue/assassin that had poison use as a feat would probably just auto-detect it. It would be a "spot" to taste/notice it. A ranger or druid would probably use a knowledge nature if it was a natural substance, a magic user could spellcraft on a magic substance. Thats why "perception" is the only one of the combined skills that makes sense to me. In my games "spot" is anything sense based but hearing.

I know that doesnt make sense, really. But "spot" means "to pinpoint something with the main senses" and "listen" is "to be aware of a sound nearby". So, in example, a thief is hiding in a nearby alley. He fails his MS. I roll for party without telling them. One char hears. I say "you hear a scuff nearby". "What/Where is it?" "You cant tell". "Spot" "K. You peer around and see an alley cat." (they didnt see thief). As opposed to if the thief was quiet, they might not have got the warning that he was anywhere nearby. But if they made the spot "You see a thin person dressed in tight fitting dark clothes with a charcoal smeared face crouched in the alley." It can be done with perception. But I like the difference. Just cuz I guess.

And BTW, Fluffing/fluffer means something lewd here (dunno if it does over there). I had to read the sentence twice. :D

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf » 22-Apr-12 09:04

Lol, no, I think the term is known here too. Frog fluffer... I wonder if any scientist/biologist interns have to get that task ever?

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena » 22-Apr-12 10:10

Hmm, yeah that's true about Spot...so if you were looking and smelling for something, say (if you had a char with a strong enough sense of smell but also fairly good eyesight), would you roll it twice (once for each sense), or just roll once and use the one roll for both senses?
I probably should actually check what feats and stuff I get to pick at higher levels...I did look before but it was months ago when we were first discussing it, so I've kind of forgotten ;).
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel » 22-Apr-12 21:00

Thanks, beo! You made me pull a read-Ian's-posts! LOL! I'm just reminded of that scenein fallout 2 at the *ahem* studio in San Francisco, and they tell you you can be a fluffer, and you can answer "whats a fluffer?" and then the screen goes black and you end up irradiated! (There is no alternate meaning here.):D

For spot, itd be one roll, and Id take into account the character' senses when resolving it. So, the char in the example might smell a sweaty bandit nearby and see a few branches moving on a brush up ahead, or a humanoid shaped shadow, depending on how good they did.

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena » 23-Apr-12 11:29

Ah cool :). I'll get round to sorting my skill points soon - I keep ending up doing other stuff and forgetting about it. Btw did you get that file okay in the last e-mail I sent you, Raixel? I think my comp went a bit weird so I'm not entirely sure the e-mail sent okay, lol. If you need any other PDFs, let me know. Same goes for anyone else - I have access to PDFs of zillions of games, not just the various iterations of DnD so lemme know if you need anything :).
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by ian_scho » 23-Apr-12 15:38

Ameena wrote:....I have access to PDFs of zillions of games.......so lemme know if you need anything :).
You passed me the players handbook for DnD 3.summat a while back, ameena, and it was most appreciated. When I've finished perusing that one I may send you a pm for the Warhammer 40K roleplaying books that you might have :) Later!

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena » 23-Apr-12 18:16

Yeah, I have all the 40k ones...may not have downloaded "Into the Storm" but can certainly get it. PM me with a reminder of your e-mail address or meet me on Skype some time (if I'm on my comp then I'm on Skype and you're already on my list so that should be easy enough ;)) and I can transfer across any files you want.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf » 23-Apr-12 18:22

Don't mistake your shitlist for your skypelist or else we'll all be in a world of hurt, and you'll have to talk to a lot of annoying people!

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel » 24-Apr-12 04:18

*snickers*. I suppose those could be considered words to live by, hmmm?

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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by ian_scho » 24-Apr-12 06:22

Many thanks, Ameena!

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