Rules discussion--

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Rules discussion--

Post by raixel »

Alright! So I would like to start by mentioning some house rules I use, and we can discuss them and see if we all want to use them here.

1) A nat 1 is ALWAYS a critical fail. Even for things like init you will go on the last init count if you roll a natural 1. This adds an element of randomness as a rogue with a +7 init can still fall flat on their ass and move last.

2) Conversely, a nat20 is ALWAYS a critical success. So if theres a DC 30 roll on say a listen, and your lev 2 manages to roll a nat20, they get as much info as if they beat the DC.

3) Materials and DR. In the DMG, if you have say DR -/silver, you can over come the DR with a magic weapon. In most of the campaigns I run, you MUST have the material to hit. So a non-silver magic weapon will not hit DR/silver, ect. Magic of course works different as DR/+1 can still be hit by a +3 weapon, as it would be silly otherwise. To counter this, there are relatively common vials of oil (ie 'silvering' oil) that you can apply to a weapon as a move action (if the vial is easily accessable) that lasts for 1d4+1 hits or until you resheath the weapon (note that it is 'hits' and not rounds). DR monsters are still hurt by cast magic normally. This makes monsters such as lycanthropes a little bit scarier, and their CR is adjusted accordingly. It also makes weapons of certain materials more valuable and also allows for the creation of cool wonderous items such as a scabbard that automatically coats oils on the blade if you say a command word and daggers that inject the oil into monsters on a successful hit causing extra damage ect.

4) I usually run a low magic campaign where continuous functioning magic items are rare. I LOVE wonderous items and items with charges, however and those abound. I think that this will fit in rather well with the DM flavor of the campaign, as most effects in DM are charge-based. So say you might find a +3 sword that functions as a ormal sword unless you expend a charge. Then it functions as a magic sword till the end of combat. (Thats part of the reason why I usually allow slightly higher attributes, as you dont have the normal magic items as a compensation)

5) A brand new want has 20 charges and not 50, as 50 is ridiculous. The price of wands is adjusted accordingly.

These are the rules I use all the time. There are others, but I wont be using them in this campaign. I also prefer the 'roll for ac' variant, but I wont be using it unless everyone agrees to it as a lot of people dont like it. If anyone has any problems with any of the above listed rules, please let me know.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf »

Roll for AC? Not heard of it. Or maybe I have and forgotten :)
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena »

Responses to each point...

1 and 2 - It's pretty much a house rule at club that Nat-1 are crit fails (ie auto-fail) and nat-20s are crit passes...though we don't apply that rule on Initiative. What happens if two people botch their Init roll?

3 - Still don't get this one. "DR" means "Damage Resistance", right? But that wouldn't make sense if something is DR 5-silver because that implies it resists 5 damage if hit by silver, or something, and since it's lycanthropes that have this property that's obviosuly wrong so I'm misunderstanding something there. This mechanic isn't in 4th and all these numbers and slashes all over the place just flargle my brain :P. And what's "CR"?

4 - No comments at this time. I've not really played any DnD game long enough to start getting magic items.

5 - Again, no comment. I've never played a class that could use wands anyway, them being magic items and all, and me always playing a Rogue ;).

And what's the "Roll for AC" thing? Surely it can't mean that you roll your AC like you do your other stats because that'd just be stupid, lol - "Oh yes, I'm a big scaly Dragonborn and I have this big uber-looking plate armour but I only rolled a 2 for my AC so actually pretty much anything can hit me" :D.
So overall, I haven't got any major complaints other than that I don't understand what all that DR stuff is about. If it can be explaied without loads of numbers and unfamiliar initialisms (or if someone could explain what these initialisms actually stand for so I don't have to guess), that'd be good ;). Though I'd hope that we don't start coming up against werecreatures and vampires and stuff within the first five minutes of the game so I suppose it's not gonna be relevant straight away unless anyone's plonked a lycanthrope template over their character :D.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf »

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilit ... eReduction

Damage reduction. You ignore that number of damage, the weapon after the dash is the one that does damage as normal (hence the lycanthrops resists 5 damage from anything except silver, say)

CR = challenge rating. It's the easy way to work out how powerful an enemy is for working out how many critters to pit against a party. 4th edition swapped it for an XP budget instead


@ raixel: Not sure it's a 3.5 tweak, but the rules actually say a magical weapon not made of the appropriate type still has its damage reduced.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena »

Ahh okay, so if something has "DR 5-Silver" that means the creature is considered to have Resist 5 to everything, except weps made of silver which do normal damage? Okay that makes sense now, lol.
The CR thing sounds like something which is aimed at DMs rather than players so I suppose I can ignore that, then ;).
I haven't started actually making my char yet - I think there's a bunch of stuff needs sorting before I can get started on any of that but as my character is gonna be A Big Secret till you meet her in-game, I'm not gonna be putting up any of it here. Likewise I'm not gonna be looking ay anyone else's character profile till I've met that character in-game, at which point I'll probably only look up their stats if I need to check something or whatever - I tend to prefer playing in such a way that a player only knows what their character knows (obviously this is a bit different if there are things you as a player know already, like that undead are vulnerable to Radiant damage...or whatever it's called in this version, if it has a different name...but then you just have to get on with it and not metagame, hehe). Umm, so anyway...whenever I know exactly what it is I can do with my character, I'll look up the rules for character creation over on the website and see what it is I actually have to do and how I work stuff out (like resistances, etc) because I can't remember from a year and a half ago - hopefully I won't miss stuff out/mess up the numbers, lol.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel »

Sorry, forgot to add.

6) There will be no discussion of differences between editions, including second and earlier as well(except in jokes). Period. I am including myself in this, so if I start doing it, someone shut me up. I'm not being mean. I just think it detracts from the quality of the game (especially when it happens in the story thread) and I keep on having to bite my tongue so I dont start a discussion. So no one is allowed to do this, and if someone starts doing it (Again I am included in this), all the other players may jump on them and glue feathers to the end of their char's swords and call them "little lord Faaanccyypaaants" or something. If someone is unfamiliar with a rule (including me as I play a 3/3.5 hybrid and this game is more pure 3.5), its ok to ask and get an explanation, and talk about the explanation but its not ok to go 'oh well in (#) it was done like (this) and ect ect ect'. A form of this rule actually exists in my gaming group, cuz we've got some HARDCORE 2nd'ers in there who only grudgingly play 3(.5) because the rest of the group switched and they still wanted to game.

Beo: Really? I always remember the magic hitting material/DR, and being irritated by it. Probably what has happened is we've had this house rule for so long i never bothered to check, as it came into existance in 02 if I remember right ;)

And roll for AC is when you roll either once a combat or at the beginning of the round for AC (some DMs do it every single time someone strikes at you) and add what would be your AC modifier to a dice roll instead of 10. So if your AC is 16, your AC modifier is 6. So you would add 1d20+6 instead of 10+6 to find your AC. "Normal" AC can be said to be taking 10 on AC all the time.
Pluses: More randomness. As a DM I find it way more fun to describe events.
Negatives: Extra rolls, some players dont like the randomess.

We dont have to do it, its just an option.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf »

O.O

And people actually do this as an option? That's seems game breaking. Like, each combat you're either a god or a dead man walking? Like, what's the point of tactical play, etc if the dice are gong to make your strikes either instant hits or impossible anyway?

Ok, wait, I can see it basically creates a bell curve around the bonuses. How does it work out in playing?


Edit: Sorry, that reaction sounds harsh. That was me typing after just waking up. There is the 3d6 variant for rolling attacks, etc that would also do this task. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adven ... eRolls.htm
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Lord_BoNes »

You could soften the effect on AC... so with 10 as the base:
- Rolling a 1 (10 - 1 = 9, 9 * 50% = 5 (4.5 rounded up), 10 - 5 = 5)
- Rolling a 6 (10 - 6 = 4, 4 * 50% = 2, 10 - 2 = 8 )
- Rolling a 15 (10 - 15 = -5, -5 * 50% = -3 (2.5 rounded up), 10 + 3 = 13)
- Rolling a 20 (10 - 20 = -10, -10 * 50% = -5, 10 + 5 = 15)
I feel that a -/+ 5 in each direction is more fair than -/+ 10.
Then you add your AC bonus to the result, so a bonus of +6 with a roll of 20 means that your AC becomes 21, instead of 26 (10 + 5 = 15 base AC, 15 + 6 = 21 bonus AC from armor).

One more idea, could we roll our base AC every X amount of rounds instead of only at the start of combat (or you just roll them for us)? EG: your base AC (the one you roll) lasts 5 rounds of combat. At the start of combat, you roll a 16, resulting in a base AC of 13. Then 5 rounds later, you roll a 7, resulting in a base AC of 8, making you more vulnerable... but only until you roll again in 5 rounds time (unless you roll worse).
If you were wanting to make things more random, I feel this is the way to go.
 
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena »

Omg numbers everywhere...hey, Raixel, you remember when I said I prefer to just get into the RP side of things without having all sorts of mechanics everywhere making things complicated? :D Um...yeah, I'm not sure I like the sound of the rolling-for-AC thing. I'd rather just have my AC and that's my AC and that's what it is :).
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel »

Eh, yeah, a lot of people dont like it. I REALLY like LB's option though.

And how does it work out in play? I find that it works best if you roll at the start of each attack, but thats an awful lot of rolling. It pretty much averages out in the end, especially if you roll more. Rolling only once a combat can lead to issues (someone being crippled with an AC of 6 during a "boss" battle) although I think LB's option would be even better to avoid the low ends of the curve.

There is another variation we tried once too where the players dont know their AC, or the AC of monsters (as they are constantly changing) cuz the DM rolls the dice and then doesnt tell the players their ac. That was actually really fun, but I wouldnt recommend it for any new or inexperienced players. We did it because my group has played for so long we generally knows all the mechanics and stats of nearly every single monster out there and kinda couldnt help but metagame when it came to combat (ie a player thinks "this monster only has a +4 atk bonus, odds are its not gonna hit my 17 ac so i will be WAY less cautious). The end result was that it didnt really change much but it made the combat more 'realistic' as the players were more cautious, kinda like the 'hide hp from players' variation(done for the same reasons). But thats a whole nother story...
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena »

Erm...can we just stick to the normal rules, by any chance? As I've not played 3.5 before (unless you count Wuffy's game, which is a modified version, though I don't know how modified), chances are I'm gonna be needing to keep looking up rules on the website, so if we're using a bunch of custom rules I won't be able to do that, and the AC thing just sounds horribly complicated anyway and I don't really see what narrative reason you would have for your armour mysteriously becoming suddenly stronger or weaker before/during a fight (well okay, it could get weaker if you got hit during a fight, but then to magically become strong again...?).
My brain likes it simple! :D
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel »

Ameena, I told you to facilitate youre enjoyment of the game I will handle all the complicated stuff. You dont have to worry about it at all. And AC isnt just 'armor' Its actually a lot of things such as speed, movement, skill at dodging ect. The rolling just shows that a lot more. So it isnt your actual armor getting weaker, its things like you not moving your sword to block the hit fast enough or being distracted by the commotion of battle going on less than 5 feet from you ect.

And just about the only modified thing ive seen is the condensed skills, which I will be keeping for perception but sepearting for stealth, as I HATE the stealth thing. So you will have a move silent/hide.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena »

Erm, skill at dodging is Reflexes, surely? Hence why Rogues have it high and tanks have good AC 'cause they're hard and can take more hits ;).
Regarding Stealth...I think the only two Stealth skills are Hide and Sneak, aren't they? What's wrong with rolling Stealth once to hide, and again if you then want to move silently? Or is there another Stealth skill I've forgotten about? I'm just curious - saying you "hate" something is one thing, but giving a reason for doing so explains it a whole lot better ;).
Incidentally, I had sort of assumed there would be some kind of character creation guide on that DnD website, but it seems doing so was a mistake 'cause I can't find one, lol. Whenever I get on to actually trying to put this chat together I'll have to have a mooch through the Net to see if I can find one. We're rolling only six lots of 3d6 for the stats, right? Not seven lots of 3d6 and reroll the lowest? I'm not doing it yet till I know what my stat bonuses are gonna be for my chosen race, so I know where to allocate stuff. But we can sort that over PM/e-mail/chat of course:).
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel »

My dislike stems from the fact taht if you look at Petal's stealth score, thee is two numbers. One is basically to spot her (hide) and one is basically quickness/visibility when shes moving (move silent). I have had the ever living you know what confused out of me on many occasions for the fact that thers two numbers there. The reason why you want a split is because you CAN just roll twice, but you would have the same modifier and in 3(.5) Small creatures get a bonus to one 'stealth' score but not the other. So if you are any size but medium, it is acually a nerf/buff on your char as one of the benifits or drawbacks to being small/large is the ability to hide easily or not, but that doesnt mean you can move quietly as well.

But like I said before, its not a big deal. I know you dont like numbers, so I will completely help you design your char the way you see him/her and help with all the rolls and stuff. Basically, once the char is all created (the hard part) I will say 'just roll this and add this skill modifier' and thats all you have to worry about.

In the (i think, but dont quote me) PHB theres a passage about how AC is just an abstraction about how easy or not your char is to hit, and not neccisarily entirely just your "armor". Thats what I meant, not that Reflex saves had anything to do with your AC.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf »

Ac/reflexes - yeah, Ac is an abstraction (just liek you hit points is) about how hard it is to damage you. So the number is a combination of how easily you can move to avoid blows, and also how much your armour then can turn something that still tags you aside. Reflexes is a measure of 'oh bugger, this almost -unavoidable boulder/explosion that will auto-hit me is coming. Do I naturally manage to jump out of the way in time. So the random AC is just showing you were caught during a battle closer than you meant to be, or further away, or spotted something in time or didn't. Just like the hit roll shows if you are lucky enough to catch someone unawares, or not, and isn't just a measure of how hard you are hitting them.


I'm not seeign why stealth as one skill is a nerf, since I still allow the relevant bonus in the relevant situation to carry only. You never lost your hide bonus. Sometimes you were heard when you moved but they couldn't figure out where the noise came from. That's why I said there were two thresholds the times you have tried to move and yet stay hidden too. I always gave the hide bonus if you are staying still, and the move silently bonus if you are moving. It's like having a bonus to your will save, but only through fears effects, etc (like halflings do in 3.5)

Perception is the same but the mirror, spot hidden and listen are combined in one, and if you have a bonus in one and it's the relevant situaiton, you get the bonus for that aspect (you didn't see the dragon but you hear something coming up behind you, you see the person moving in the shadows even though you wouldn't have heard them).
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena »

I've not actually looked at Petal's Stealth score...or indeed any of her scores, lol. I've not even looked at her profile. I think I looked at the other chars' profiles (except for Aurek, who like Petal joined the fun late) briefly right before we started but other than that I'm happy to not know what other character can do till they explain themselves to my char in-game ;). It's different as a GM, of course - before I started running my game with Wuffy, I asked for his character sheets as well as background info on his chosen chars so I could decide on how the game was gonna go - no point in having a "Rraar! Smite the Undead!" game if there's no religious chars in the group, or having a heavily social game if the party consists of low-Cha people who only prefer to hit stuff and are rubbish at anything else ;).
Anyway, whenever you wanna get started regarding putting my char together, just PM me with what I need to do (eg stat bonuses for my chosen race, skills I'm trained in, etc...well, you know erm, skills that I'm better at or whatever the term is, I can't remember now). I now have access to PDFs for what looks like practically every tabletop RPG ever invented so I should now be able to look through the basic DnD 3.5 book and find the character creation guide - hopefully it's well laid-out and simple and all that, 'cause I seem to recall there's more rolling and working-out of stuff in this version (like you have to spend skill points and stuff). Once i know the parameters I have to work within, I'll see what I can do and then send you what I've come up with :).
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf »

Heh, perhaps this thread should have been rules whining, sorry! I'm happy with any rules stuff, I was just pointing out why I chose to use the stealth amalgamation that I'd seen in some 3.5 games. Thigns ounds harsher when I'm rushing them first thing in the morning or at work, apparently!
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena »

I just basically prefer to know what I'm doing with my characters without having to bug someone every five seconds to ask them how a certain rule works ;). This applies less to Fantasy in my case, though, and more to...well, non-Fantasy stuff, since I'm much more comfortable in a fantasy setting as it's what I've been filling my head with for the past 20+ years :D. You should see me when I'm trying to play any of the Warhammer 40k games ;).
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel »

So beo, let me get this straight. You basically kept the two different mods but combined them into one skill? So the skill ranks rae the same, but the mods are diff?
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena »

It doesn't really sound any different from the DM privately granting a bonus/penalty to a skill roll without telling the player, such as if they're rolling Diplomacy to try and persuade someone of something, and in doing so if they happen to mention, say, another NPC's name, this gives them a bonus to their roll but which they don't know about because their characters are unaware that the person they're speaking to is the other person's closest ally or something. Woot for secret DM bonuses ;).
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by raixel »

Im juts trying to figure out how he worked it so I can understand, then perhaps I might keep it combined.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf »

I worked it like hide and move silently were never split, and the bonus for hiding or moving silently were conditionals you could be a bonus from. Like I said, just like will saves for halfling, for example.

I maybe confused the issue by allowing a stelath roll to stand for two rolls. Instead of being mean and only making you roll a move silently, I've also let you effectively have a second (same value) roll for hiding. So if you were discovered due to noise, there was a chance to still remain unseen (given you were always trying to hide in the shadow, etc, ehile you moved)

Is that where the confusion has come from?


3.5 has it's fair share of condition rolls:
Survival (11): +15, +17 above ground, +17/19 when lost, avoiding hazards, following tracks, +17-21 vs fey, +19-23 vs human

That's constructed exactly from the RAW from 3.5 :D
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Lord_BoNes »

I like the idea of combining certain skills together, like Beo did:
Appraise (use magic device & decipher scroll)
Acrobatics (balance & tumble)
Athletics (climb, jump & swim)
Bluff (which I think should also diplomacy, I feel they're the same thing)
Thievery (disable device & pick lock)
Escape artist (includes use rope)
Stealth (hide & move silently)
Perception (spot, listen & search)

I think this setup is the way to go... it makes it simpler, and it also means less points to allocate :D
 
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf »

It's was the logical combination that some other ones had done already, though I cranked it perhaps one notch again so it was nearer 4th edition than say Lone Wolf's version of 3.5. I think pathfinder isn't as compressed as I thought, and still has many skills separate

Bluff and diplomacy are exactly the same. One is stating something, and having the person believe you. Diplomacy is actually understanding another's point of view, and coming to a compromise through discussion. You could call it persuasion if you collapsed it, but it's not how any published 3.5/4th edition set has gone, because they are both quite important skills :) Even things like Call of Cthulhu has fast talk and persuasion as separater skills :) Really, your charisma is already your natural persuasiveness, and intimidate, bluff and diplomacy as the flavours of how you go about it. Say what people want to hear, enforce what you want them to think, or find the balance between.


Obviously when I did it, I kinda decided not to account for the excess skill points of rogues and rangers, etc.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Lord_BoNes »

But that's why I didn't say that intimidate should be combined aswell. I feel that both bluff and diplomacy are examples of the same kind of "fast talking" behaviour ("persuasion" as you called it)... however, intimidate is about standing over someone and MAKING them believe what you want them to believe, through fear.
 
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf »

Actually, intimidation is not just pohysical intimidation - or else it would just be a strength check. It's making them do something thye don't want to do through the force of your will.

Bluff is a quick comment that may or may not be true (I like using bluff to convince someone the true thing you say is true aswell). Bluff can be used against a PC.

Diplomacy is not just persuading someone of your point of view, it's figuring out the other person, communicating your point of view, and hopefully finding a compromise or let them understand why your point of view benefits them. Many DMs, myself included, usualyl let you get away with a roll for a very short pitch, but technically in D&D that should give you a -10 penalty, due to the fact you aren't really able to explain yourself well nor get a feel for what's going on. Usually even on a successful check, there would still be a 'do you accept where it landed' feel, unlike bluff where your comment is accepted or not. And NPCs don't use diplomacy against you - that's what RP if for :)

Anyway, you can make a case for it, but that's the logic of why it is as separate as intimidation.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena »

Yeah, Intimidation can be done through a number of means - you could stand there and look all threatening, or you could actually make some kind of threat. Even something as simple as playing around with a dagger in one hand can be intimidating in the right circumstances, as can making some kind of seemingly off-hand comment which implies you both possess the ability to inflict large amounts of pain (for example) and are willing to use it. I think Intimidate in the Warhammer 40k RPGs is Strength-based, whereas Charm (the talking-to-people-nicely skill) is the Fellowship-based one (Fellowship being basically the Charisma stat in those games), but I would say it could possibly be both. Actually, I'm sure I've played a game somewhere in which Intimidate can be either Str or Cha, depending on how you're going about it.
Bluff I see as just being anything which attempts to deceive someone - I suppose this one would be more verbal than anything else. Diplomacy likewise, though it's more kind of the "nice" way to persuade someone, opposite to Intimidate's "Oi you, do this or else" approach ;).
Meh, I think I'm just waffling without really having any kind of point to make, lol. I think personally I like having Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate as separate skills, just because they're three different types of action even though they all run off the same stat.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf »

Intimidation doens't have to be violent. For example, you could be a ranked officer in an army who orders your men to attack somewhere they don'#t want to. Intimidation would show if they would be bullied in to going, even if you weren't actively threatening violcen. Hence why it's charisma based. It's not might makes right, it's compeltely emotional based pushing :)
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by Ameena »

Oh yeah, I'm not saying you have to threaten to twat someone with some kind of heavy object every time you try intimidating them, that was just an example. I think the idea of intimidating someone is that you either imply or outright state that certain aspects of a person's life are likely to become somewhat unpleasant if they happen to not go along with whatever it is you want them to do.
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Re: Rules discussion--

Post by beowuuf »

Like a certain minotauir friend would certainly never imply he was going to hit someone in the face so hard with his horns that they would be able to watch themselves walk, however after seeing him yell at people until they call over unconscious, a 'friendly' suggestion might not be taken as being so friendly, nor just a suggestion.
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