Legend of Grimrock

[èné]

Level 3..

the cast magic system is somewhat confusing at times but it's ok. Haven't found many puzzles in level 2, also been knocking at every walls to find secret rooms. I found some strange items like a skull, a calice.. but i don't know if they can be used. I also made two dreams in which someone talked to me to let me know he's waiting for me at the end of the dungeon (i like the idea of dreams).

The game is pretty good, really, i'm enjoying it a lot - thanks to the authors, i hope there will be many additionnal dungeons

As for the skull, I don't know if there's another use, but

Spoiler

Minotaurs have a trait that gives them +3 attack power per skull carried. Mine has two

(

Thanks for the heads-up, 2 skulls here too , i keep them

I debated on going Old School, but I have so little spare time, I opted for the auto-map in the end. It definitely makes things easier

Automap here too, didn't use it often so far, but sometimes it's just handy ! Also I've been told that in deeper levels, there are many teleporters and that it's quite tricky if you draw maps on paper..

Level 4.. things are getting tough it seems with many puzzles to resolve. My team is Minotaur/Fighter, Lizard/Rogue, Insectoid/Mage and Human/Mage. I'm glad I made that choice, each mages can train and improve in their respective category (air/fire and ice/earth). Also, I finally put the human mage at the front, so he acts as a fighter at the same time. he's not the best in this category of course but when it was the rogue, things were even worse (dead very quickly, especially when it was against spiders). The good thing now is that i can use the bow and arrows with my rogue and since then, fights are much easier, he just makes some great damages ! With some good equipment, my mage/fighter is doing pretty well.

One thing that puzzles me is that there are earthquakes from time to time, I don't know the meaning of it but it's pretty stressful !


Happy hunting to all

[PetriH]

Sounds like you guys are having fun with the game! I'm relieved.

What's the deepest dungeon level you have been so far?

[Suule]

Entering 6th. But I need to backtrack since I'm SURE I missed few notes and secrets.

I have to say

Spoiler

the abandoned tunnels were hard as hell when suddenly I found myself assaulted from all sides by monsters... just like in CSB! So far 5 opened Iron doors! I also jump into every pit now dammit... that's TOTALLY not what Conflux taught me!

[r0ck]

Sounds like you guys are having fun with the game! I'm relieved.

What's the deepest dungeon level you have been so far?

Hey, I am at level 7 now and I gotta say that I love the game. One thing thought, I decided to go with 2 mages and I dont think the game supports this to 100%. For example I only got 1 staff for my first mage, the second one is just using his hand. Ah well I will see what I get further down.

I might restart the whole thing and go with the normal setup, 2 fighters, 1 rogue 1 mage.

Thanks for the awesome game anyway, I cant wait for the editor! I so wanna make my own adventures!

I already made a couple of them in original DM using RTCEditor. And oh, if you need a fifth hand doing dungeons I am free .

[Gambit37]

Sounds like you guys are having fun with the game! I'm relieved.
What's the deepest dungeon level you have been so far?

I'm currently half way through Level 7, it's getting tense! The

Spoiler

Fire Guardians

or whatever they're called are quite terrifying!

There's a few design choices in the both the game and the UI that I find... a bit strange. As a UI deisgner myself, I can't help but think about these issues I know there are lots of discussions about all that on your forums, and I've contributed to some of them. The biggest problem for me is the tooltips, they are really very, very annoying and they hamper the inventory management. When I'm moving items around, I don't need to see the tooltips and they obscure other items that I'm trying to swap. It's quite messy and I'm surprised beta testers accepted this behaviour, it's not usual for an interface to work this way. Is there any way of turning this off? I made a suggestion that you could instead display the item name in the unused space at the bottom, when you rollover the items. A modifier key could then be used to display the full tooltip/popup if you want to see it. http://i43.tinypic.com/2n6g6rm.jpg

A few other things I noticed:

1) I can't fire missle weapons or missile spells through door gates, even though they would clearly fit through. DM allowed all missiles to go through (though I think you needed high DEX), including poison bolts (but not fireballs). Not sure I understand why you made this decision? Is it because it makes things too easy?

2) Some spells will damage the party if you don't have a line of site to cast them, Ice Shards for example. That seems unfair and a bit silly; a magic user isn't going to willingly cast damage on himself! If there's no line of site for such spells, they should just fail without doing anything.

3) I have to wait for a door to fully open before I can cast a spell through it. With gate type doors, it seems a bit unfair when creatures such as

Spoiler

Green Slime

can attack me through it whether it's closed or open. Perhaps it's understandable for high spells, such as poison bolts or fireballs, but for floor level spells such as Ice Shards, or gaseous spells like poison cloud, it doesn't really make sense.

4) The interface for potion making breaks the consistency of your container management. Other containers are right clicked to open them, and you see what's inside. The pestle and mortar however are an interface mechanism, but you present it like a container. So I have to open the container, then put the ingredients AND the flask inside the mortar, which logically doesn't make sense. Then I have to take the created potion OUT of the mortar, which is also weird. I'm not sure I agree with the logic behind how this works, it could do with refinement, or indeed a completely different approach.

I hope you don't take these suggestions negatively, I'm just trying to offer constructive thoughts. These are my considered views as a UI designer. I just want Grimrock to be the best it can be

[PetriH]

Thanks for the feedback! I noticed your post about the tooltips on Grimrock forums.We're scanning the forums but it's quite impossible to answer to all posts.... sorry!

I think you may be the first person who critiques the tooltips. Could be because this is how tooltips work in most games nowdays so everybody is used to them "being in the way". Showing the item name in the bottom and using a modifier to display it sounds like it makes the interface harder to use - the first time player doesn't know about the modifier key at all and will miss important information at the start of the game. A better solution would be to add tooltip delays, I think.

1) This is quite small detail so we didn't implement it as a special case.

2) I don't see the difference between casting a ice shard and a fireball at a wall... Making mistakes in combat and hurting yourself is part of the fun

3) I agree, this could be improved.

EDIT: I just tested this in the game and it seems to work just fine. I can shoot a fireball under a partially opened door and throw missile weapons without problems.

4) Mortal & Pestle works this way so that it's easy to expand the crafting system by simply adding a new kind of tool item. I agree that the current implementation could be improved.

[Gambit37]

I think you may be the first person who critiques the tooltips. Could be because this is how tooltips work in most games nowdays so everybody is used to them "being in the way".

I don't play many modern games, so I'm unaware of this behaviour. Can you give me an example of tooltips in other games? I'd like to see this in action. That said, user acceptance doesn't make it good design People were used to mobile phones working a particular way until Apple invented the iPhone

Tooltips are obviously very useful, but they should be optional. I don't need to know all that information about an item every time I run my mouse over it. Only the first time is useful, after that it's just noise because they obscure what I'm trying to do with the item, especially when then tooltip is large. I'm definitely not the only person to notice it, there are a few comments about it around the forum and some +1 to my suggestion. I think part of the problem is that you made the decision to expose a lot of information to the player that was previously hidden in games like DM. I'd personally prefer as little info as I need, until I need it -- so from that point of view, I would prefer it to be my choice as a player, rather than having it forced on me as part of the design. Good interfaces only give the user what they need when they need it; anything extra is clutter and detracts from the tasks at hand.

Some of the tooltips are absolutely huge too. Text on long scrolls can obscure most of the inventory, and if I'm trying to organise my items I just can't see what I'm doing because the tooltips are in the way.

Showing the item name in the bottom and using a modifier to display it sounds like it makes the interface harder to use - the first time player doesn't know about the modifier key at all and will miss important information at the start of the game. A better solution would be to add tooltip delays, I think.

Delays might help. Perhaps you could offer a tooltip delay in the options?

You might misunderstand what I was saying about the name at the bottom. I'm suggesting that rolling the mouse over the item always shows the name of the item in that area, but not the tooltip. Remember that DM showed the item name above the magic area when you picked it up, but only offered more info if you went into the inventory view.

As for hiding important information from the player at the beginning of the game... well, it's down to the player's curiosity to fully investigate the things they find. If you are telling them important gameplay elements using tooltips, and ONLY tooltips, then I think this is the wrong way to go about it. Essential information should be displayed as a message on screen, or be part of the tutorial.

[PetriH]

Tooltips in other games: WoW, Diablo, Torchlight... pretty much any PC RPG with inventory?

[Gambit37]

I guess I'm super-maximum-oldschool, I haven't played any of those I need to watch some YouTube lets plays in that case...

[PetriH]

But anyways, I get your point and I understand that you don't like how the tooltips are implemented... I'll look if there's an easy way to add tooltip delays.

[Gambit37]

That would be great, thank you Perhaps there could also be a toggle to have them on/off completely? It could either be in the Options, or perhaps even a small toggle icon next to the sleep icon?

I've just fired up LoG again to see things in action. The biggest problem is when I'm trying to move items from the inventory to a container -- large tooltips obscure the container contents completely. That, coupled with the distraction of rapidly changing tooltips of different sizes, it just makes the whole experience confusing and overwhelming. Maybe I'm just too old, lol I do have sight problems and perhaps I'm more sensitive to these kinds of distractions, so anything you can do to improve it would be fantastic.

Not sure how you'll solve all these issues in iOS? No hover states there, so you need a completely different approach... I'm very intrigued to see how the iOS port will work, as the current PC interface relies on right-mouse clicks and hovers. Have you done any prototyping on the touch/gesture interface yet?

[PetriH]

Yeah, the iOS interface needs some loving. We had an iOS prototype running in September but the game has changed quite a bit since then...

[Gambit37]

Well if anyone can do a good job, I know you guys will Sorry about complaining about a few small parts of the game, I really do think the whole game is absolutely awesome! You've made an exceptional experience, it's exactly what I was hoping for. The visuals are simply stunning, the atmosphere is fantastic, and everything about it just ooozes style and sophistication. I'm still stunned by it and can't believe you did all this in a year! I've already spent way more time in here than I did in SkyRim; I only spent 4 hours on Skyrim before I got bored. Not so with LoG -- in fact, I've been spending too much time in LoG to the point where I'm not getitng my work done. That's a sign of a great game

[sucinum]

Neverwinter Nights has decent, adjustable tooltips - everything you could wish or not about tooltips actually. Worth a look.
Also, just downloading the game! I even got the preorder goodies.

[PetriH]

Heheh, thanks! Yeah, I know how you feel about Skyrim. I think I scored about 5 hours beforing giving up. The dungeons were semi ok, but otherwise the game didn't scratch in the itch in right places for me.

[babebridou]

I'm currently half-way into level 7, playing without maps. The game so far has been relaxing - there are places which I know to hold secrets but I still haven't tried to explore them all because I'll soon be facing some severe food shortage

Regarding tooltips: there are problems with tooltips in general (not just in your game, PetriH). People can't seem to make up their mind when it comes to tooltip location. The worst example is actually Diablo3 (beta), since the tooltip is exactly where it hurts(above the inventory, left of the highlighted item) and is opaque, so it blocks the whole inventory if'd you hover an item to the far right. In the case of LoG tooltips are not that bad, even though you have to admit it's not exactly the best. The tooltip is not completely opaque, but it blocks entire rows of items. I fail to see how adding a delay would help.

In my opinion, Tooltips are best placed at a fixed location of the user's choice - down the screen, left of the portraits for example, no need to follow the mouse. Also if you could allow tooltips to display when mouse-overing hands, that would be perfect.

[Kenshiro]

I think I'm about as far as most people here.

Finished level 6, a bit into level 7, just went back and about to start Fighter's Challenge.

[r0ck]

I just entered Level 10, those lich thingys really do hurt Seems it can be finished with my strange setup after all.

Human Fighter
Human Fighter
Human Mage
Human Mage

[moogie]

Petri I'm a casual player with three kids, 38 years old, and I have been playing dungeons crawlers since I was 10 years old.

Your game is just great perfect and fun. My son is sitting beside me at night watching the game. And he loves it too. He's 11 years old.

YOu are getting the new generations as well as the old. I just hope you make other dungeons for us. It,s excellent. Thak your team you guys are great!

Just at level 2 can only play an hour at a time but man it's a hell of an hour... the sound oh man the sound.... I play at night with the lights dimmed and the sound high... it's scary!

[Kenshiro]

I just entered Level 10, those lich thingys really do hurt Seems it can be finished with my strange setup after all.

Human Fighter
Human Fighter
Human Mage
Human Mage

Ohoho, a little prejudiced or something are we?

I've got a typical Fighter/Fighter/Rogue/Mage setup. Human/Minotaur/Human/Insectoid respectively. My minotaur has the highest health and protection but dies the fastest. The odd time I get corner it's with a wall to my left and back, so he gets attacks from both sides

Also with the crabs, both attacks always seem to hit him

[Sabreman]

I just got to the start of level 5 last night, looking forward to another session when I'm settled tonight. Dungeon Master experience is definitely proving useful as far as the puzzles are concerned so far - it's often a case of seeing the 'type' of layout before me and immediately understanding what needs to be done (even if not cracking it immediately). I got stumped for a while on level 4 last night on a puzzle I was absolutely sure I was doing the right thing on, but it turned out I'd misread something that made me choose the wrong solution, entirely my fault!

Every time my torch goes out I'm struck by how beautiful the lighting in the game is, to the extent that from the next session onwards I'm going to try playing without a torch at all and just go by ambient light and the occasional wall-mounted ones. The atmosphere is improved immeasurably.

[Kid_A]

Really refreshing and solid game !!! Good work Almost Human
TY for this game ! Really.




PS : Can't wait the map editor ( *** praying for a conflux Port ***)

[Gambit37]

Yes, I agree about the lighting, it's superb, really very atmospheric. I love the way shadows are cast by passing fireballs, etc, it looks great and very realistic. This is definitely how I imagined a modern DM to look and they got this spot-on. Lovely stuff

[Ameena]

Haven't played it again since my first session, due to work and stuff. But I'll be getting back to it when I can . I haven't had any problem with the tooltips so far - I suppose I'm used to them from so many other games I've played that use them. I don't see an issue with them obscuring the inventory because...well, I just move the mouse off the item so I can see what's underneath...
I'm hoping there's a Light spell of some kind, so I can dump all these torches I've been lugging around - I don't know how scarce they'll become later on if there is no Light spell (or if there is but I fail to find the recipe) so right now two characters have about half their inventory full of torches, lol.
Meanwhile, the Yogscast have started playing! First vid here if anyone's interested...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xALsxZv0 ... AAAAAAABAA

[beowuuf]

Thanks for the offer but I don't think I have enough time or interest to make it commercial. Moreover I don't see it could be a commercial success being kinda old fashioned and all.

I'm already working on some commercial software projects, and DM2000 is just intended to be a fun/freetime project of mine and a couple of my friends working in the industry.

But on the otherhand I do not want to say a define no at this point. I mean it's too early to say anything. Let's see how the game looks after a couple of iterations...

--Petri Häkkinen

Quote from 2001 in the DM2000/EfDM thread. Who knew

And I'd forgot until re-reading that old thread that the old engine was basically burned to the ground to become what Grimrock is now!

[r0ck]

Finished!! 10 hours and 1 minute on normal difficulty. I really enjoyed the last boss, really cool mechanics when you had to dismantle him with Weapon Of Powah!! Now, for christ sake, get the editor out already!!! I want more !!!

I didnt find the game to hard with this setup:

Human fighter (Sword)
Human fighter (Axe)
Human mage (Fire)
Human mage (Earth)

I wasnt even close to getting 50 points in any of their skills thought, is that normal? Or did I miss a bunch of enemies somewhere?

[sucinum]

Wow, that game is awesome! I wouldn't have thought what some decent graphics can do to DM - it's really a blast when monsters attack you by jumping in the middle of the screen, especially when being surprised from behind, that's done it right where Doom 3 failed. Very immersive and it also kept true to the fast paced gameplay (unlike Stonekeep). Even though I'm not that good at riddling, I'm doing quite well so far and enjoyed all of them. According to the feedback I got for the same thing, you really have balls for including riddles where you have to jump down pits.

My setup:
Mino Fighter (full damage sword fighter, aiming for heavy armor)
Lizard Rogue (high evasion with a pointy dagger, aiming for light armor)
Human Rogue (full damage ranged weapon attacker)
Insectoid Mage (Ice, Spellcraft)

Feels like a well balanced party, even though I went a quite offensive route. But that's what flanking (and ice) is for.

The editor might even lure me in a recreation of Imprisoned Again - since you also chose the prisoner theme, I could even stay with the name.

[RAF68]

Here's the test of your games on the greatest French video game site

http://www.jeuxvideo.com/articles/0001/ ... k-test.htm

[Suule]

I'm hoping there's a Light spell of some kind, so I can dump all these torches I've been lugging around - I don't know how scarce they'll become later on if there is no Light spell (or if there is but I fail to find the recipe) so right now two characters have about half their inventory full of torches, lol.

Spoiler

There is a light and a darkness spell. Both require two runes and spellcraft at 5.

[Gambit37]

I am just trying to imagine Conflux in this engine and I'm going quietly insane... *sobs at the beauty of it all*....