Films you should watch, books you should read

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Jan
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Jan »

I just started watching "District 9" - well, I hope I'll sleep well tonight... actually, I hope I'll sleep at all. Seems very good so far.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Trantor »

District 9 is certainly one of the most interesting movies I've seen in a long time. I think it has some VERY good aspects, but I thought there were just a dozen or two too many plotholes... I want to love it, but some parts just don't make any sense to me. I'm interested in your judgment Jan once you have seen the full movie.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by beowuuf »

I think I've said this elsewhere, I felt that when you stop thinking of district 9 as a non-hollywood movie, and start realising it's just a very well done hollywood blockbuster style film with some nice elements thrown in, it feels like a really good film.

Out of interest trant, what plotholes did you find? I hadn't thought about the plot enough to notice any!
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Jan »

I agree with Trant - the movie is very well indeed, but there are many "plotholes" (or simply things that don't make much sense to me - or things that seem unbelievable to me). I preferred the first half - I found it interesting and scary, I enjoyed the acting and personal development of Wikus, and I liked the critical references to apartheid and corporations, etc. But later, these references become too trivial, and in the second half the film turns into too much shooting and Terminator-style action. There were too many heads and other body-parts flying around for my taste, and the story became too simple (how, on earth, did Wikus and Christopher get into the MNU HQ across the whole Johannesburg? how did the aliens construct the space ship in their slum? why do the bad guys always have to talk so much before shooting someone - they should already know that they won't have time to push the trigger! why... ?*). And the end... well, I don't have anything against open-endings, but it came very fast and left many things not solved, and looked more like the authors didn't know how to end it.

* The list of "hows" and "whys" would be very long.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Trantor »

I agree with you Jan, and I'd even go one step further and claim that the authors didn't even quite know how to start the whole thing.
Where do the aliens come from? Why did they come to Earth? Coincidence or purpose? From watching the movie, you get the impression that nobody ever asked the aliens these questions! Furthermore, they seem stupid, almost like animals. How did such a race ever build such a spaceship or come with such sophisticated and powerful weapon technology? More importantly, why is there one alien who is infinitely cleverer than the others? Who is he? The pilot of the ship, its commander maybe? Where does that blue liquid come from? From the remains of the space ship? Why is it still there and intact after over 20 years? Why does our intelligent alien work alone instead of seeking help from his kin? Why don't the aliens ever use their advanced weapon technology to get them a better life? In the end, our human hero discovers a device that would be able to blast the whole of South Africa to smithereens, and he kicks some serious butt without even truly realizing what he does. Why did none of the aliens ever use it?

These are just off the top of my hat, and it's been several weeks that I saw the movie, so there are probably many more questions. I really did like the premise, the theme of segragration and apartheid between humans and aliens. But ultimately, it feels as if some major plot points simply are not addressed at all, and the whole background doesn't feel coherent and believable. This is really a shame as the film has so many great aspects, it feels like a waste that the film didn't turn out better (the same goes for Event Horizon, by the way). I would have loved to love District 9; as it is, I merely like it and regret that it doesn't live up to its potential, at least in my mind.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Jan »

You're absolutely right, Trant!

And I also have to say that you're the best reviewer here - I have the same feeling about the movie as you, but I just can't express it so clearly and precisely! As my grandfather would say, you're like Dostoyevsky: "every word is a pearl"! :)

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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Trantor »

Hey, now you are kidding! :wink: Especially since I sometimes begin to write a lengthy post and really try my best to build a good, coherent string of logical arguments, but after 20 minutes or so I delete everything and don't reply to the thread in question because I just cannot seem to express myself in a way that I would be pleased. Sometimes, I blame the language barrier for that, but I know that that is only half of the truth - I'm just having trouble to put my thoughts to words. That's one of the many reasons why I could never be a writer, though I'd actually like to be one. But reading that you like my reviews certainly feels good. :)
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by beowuuf »

The problem seems to be that people's expectations going in, or people's expectations on the start, then make them judge the film for what they think it should have been, rather than what it is. Luckily, I caught myself quite quickly at the start, and was actually able to get over myself and enjoy the film for what it was. A well crafted sci-fi action film with great characteristation of an anti-hero becoming a hero, and interesting and evocative premise that had real-world echoes, and also needed obligatory cool action. I've never complained that terminator has betrayed its premise by focusing on the chase instead of the idea of how we will doom ourselves with technology and war.

What shook me top start with was that a) the documentary footage and style was broken for alien POV. Then b), that the supposed aliens had very human characteristics when they interacted. Of course, what stopped me getting disillusioned with the film was realising that other franchise sci-fi shows and films have this sort of thing all the time. The film had done too good a job of making me think this was real, but it was still a sci-fi film with a driving plot. So I shifted my perception, and really enjoyed a well crafted film instead of trying to think of it as a faut-documentary with pretensions of real world importance.

Taking a look at the plot holes:
Where do the aliens come from? - You find out where they do 3/4 of the way through
Why did they come to Earth? - it was references though in the same scene. If not, there are worse co-incidences. Damaged module homed in on the first evidence of a habited planet?
From watching the movie, you get the impression that nobody ever asked the aliens these questions! - At the very start the documenterians ask the questions. The tone implies the aliens were interviewed by the government and corporations, and the answers are not released to the public, but they are asked.
Furthermore, they seem stupid, almost like animals. - they are, I think that was even referenced - the group are leaderless and sick. Those inside seemed like workers. More importantly, notice how the population was kept in poverty and reduced to drugs? Not the best for ensuring mental well-being. Besides, jut because they seem uninspired doesn't mean they aren't intelligent. Infact they can understand humans and adapt remarkably well!
How did such a race ever build such a spaceship or come with such sophisticated and powerful weapon technology? - they just did. How can humans have done what we have done when some of us - myself for instance - are quite so hopeless at some many things. And they seem so plentiful I assume a hive like industry doesn't hurt.
More importantly, why is there one alien who is infinitely cleverer than the others? - I don't think he's infinitely cleverHis friend helped him too, his son picks everything up fast, and I think there is a real difference betwwen the dispirited and drugged up inhabitants, and the alien who knows the secret of where the module is and has a drive to keep him going.
Who is he? The pilot of the ship, its commander maybe? - maybe, the module seems to be his.
Where does that blue liquid come from? From the remains of the space ship? - It's macguffin, why would it make an interesting film to technobabble that? Who cares in star trek how the heisenberg compensators work in teleporters, they just work, and dramatically as long as it sounds plausable then I can carry on enjoying the world and story. Infact, I will go further and ay I'm glad that alot of this isn't technobabbles into acceptable packages for audience understanding. I don't need every programme I watch to tell me how phones work, or computers. As long as there are obvious rules I can understand and intuit that aren't broken, it makes a world feel real. Trying to overexplain how things work can break that real feeling.
Why is it still there and intact after over 20 years? - why woulnd't it be?
Why does our intelligent alien work alone instead of seeking help from his kin? - perhaps he doesn't want to share for fear of it being leaked to the humans, given how desperate some of his kind are for their fixes. Never trust a junky! The command module fell away separately before the main ship was found, so it's obviously nothing the other aliens would otherwise know.
Why don't the aliens ever use their advanced weapon technology to get them a better life? - I don't know, why don't we as a race use ours to create a better life for everyone? And why would an alien race necessarily be as murderous in their dealings as humans? The aliens seems much more passive in their resistance, plus are being downtrodden and drugged.
In the end, our human hero discovers a device that would be able to blast the whole of South Africa to smithereens, and he kicks some serious butt without even truly realizing what he does. Why did none of the aliens ever use it? - again, just because humans would happily murder millions in one action, why is that an acceptable action? Plus, humans outnumber aliens significantly. The alines rise up, and the whole lot of them could be vapourised in return. So why actively fight and be wiped out? And our hero doens't win in the space ship, it gets blown down right away, and doens't win in the battle suit, he gets trashed (something I love about that part of the film, actually. The hero keeping fighting, and the hero not actually defeating his nemesis!)

I just have heard alot of similar complaints about the film, but wonder what sort of film would have been better? A sci fi film with nothing but turning the apartheid into a sci-fi version seems disrespectful and would actually have no worthwhile conclusion. The invertion is interesting as a premise, and makes you think and remember the real world equivalent, but would then say nothing else new nor interesting if it carried on alone that couldn't be said by an actual apparteid film. Similarly, while I was irritated that the aliens were not truly alien and that aspect of otherworldliness was not being investigated by the film, I realised that seriously , what film just about the culture alone would be interesting?

The other way the film could have gone was to carry on, in the human POV, show the humans pushing the aliens - who were much more alien - into the new slums, and then show an alien revolt where the aliens used their weapons, but were ultimately cut down mercilessly, which shows man's inhumanity. Ok, that could have worked. Quite a depressing film that just says 'people suck', but that could have been a way to go. But that wasn't the film. Terminator 2 is maybe the worse missed opportunity for a straight comedy buddy movie, and instead it went all violent action. However, I don't care about the path not taken if the path taken is interesting. There will be other movies, or TV series, that will borrow heavily from the concept in district 9, and may go down other paths. The film that was actually made was good, as far as I can see.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Zyx »

I agree with most of the critics, but I think they are pointless since I guess the director never intended to make a deep, coherent movie: just a fun, temporarily gullible, blockbusterish one with interesting twists.
they seem stupid, almost like animals. How did such a race ever build such a spaceship or come with such sophisticated and powerful weapon technology?
Mankind did it, yet most of the humans I know couldn't send a man on the moon or construct an atomic bomb. Myself, I barely understand what I design.
you get the impression that nobody ever asked the aliens these questions!
I think this plothole, though convenient, is on purpose, reminding us comically that humans have this amazing capacity to accept and repeat things as they are told or presented to them, without questionning. Societies thrive for centuries with ignorant, irrealist, absurd, wrong, narrow or arbitrary ideas.
To the uncurious mind, the most fantastic discovery or event can be banal. It's made obvious for the aliens in the movies, but it's already happening in our real world: life, the Earth, the universe, the mind, evolution and everything else, in fact, should be an infinite source of wondering to any of us. Yet we generally take our world for granted past our childhood.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by PaulH »

"Myself, I barely understand what I design."

Don't seem to be the only one ;-)

Have a watch of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8oVzYCBqNA

Superb video, what those men did, probably quite blind of some of the dangers was astonishing. The music fits the mood too.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Trantor »

Wow, great answers there Beo and Zyx! Maybe I really had the wrong expectations of the film, but since I barely heard anything about it before I entered the cinema, the film's first minutes might have introduced those expectations. It's true that some of those questions are rather polemic, and some can be answered easily (I myself wouldn't know why exactly a car works, let alone something more complex like the computer I'm typing this on, so why would the aliens have any clue about the spaceship or their weapons? Point taken.). I overdid it a bit to express my feelings clearer.
Beo, you mention Star Trek and Terminator, and sure, if you break it down, you can ask questions like I did for those franchises as well. Does Terminator really make more sense than District 9? I honestly don't know. The difference is that totally Terminator captivated me, and I was able to completely suspend disbelief. It felt whole, complete, and it made perfect sense to me. Well, at least the first one did, while the second took a completely different approach to how time travel works, but somehow, that doesn't bother me too much.

But back to District 9: Somehow, the film didn't feel coherent to me, it didn't fit together everywhere. I don't know if another turn of events like the ones you, Beo, would have worked better. All I can say is that from my personal point of view, District 9 is a film with a very distinctive style that is crafted very well and is bursting with creativity, both in plot and execution. But something didn't feel right for me, and I'm just sad that I couldn't enjoy the film as much as I wanted to.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by beowuuf »

I do agree that the film's start is a great strength yet weakness. As you say, any other film sets up its tone and also its narrative methods from the start and stays cnstant, while district 9 uses one distinct style to set the story before moving on to normal film narrative and style. I thnk part of that prblem comes from the parent short film, which this was based on. They've stayed true to that, instead of adapting it for the rest of the film's style

I think even a small edit could have worked - put one of the nebulous alien interactions as a teaser at the very start, then you jump into the documentary style part that will explain what you've just seen. While you would therefore still be setup for the actual style of the film.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

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Ooop, looks like I have provoked a large discussion. I think I'd better go back to the garden and continue raking the dead leaves. :)
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by MitchB1990 »

Other than District 9 being an alright movie, great effects and premise tossed by a so-so storyline, I believe that everyone should read at least once Ayn Rand's book 'Anthem'. I think it has easily topped my most read and makes you think lists. You can find it free online or even get a free version from the Kindle library.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Adamo »

Watch this and you will never ever forget this movie!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KCct4Rw ... re=related
so well scripted, so well acted... a forgotten jewel of independent cinema...
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Duckman »

I did read a "Miracle of the andies" some time ago and it was a book that left in mind!
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Roquen »

There is a yearly festival of TV production (movies, series, mini-series, documentaries, etc.) in my town. This years was this past week. There were a number of very well done entries this year, however there's one that I found excellent: Occupation a BBC mini-series (3x1 hours) about the lives of three soldiers over a five year period. It seems that the festival's series & mini-series jury agreed with me as it won: best series, best actor (Stephen Graham for "Danny") and best soundtrack.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Jan »

So I have finally bought my own copy of Frank Herbert's Dune (I mean the first, original book). I've read this book about three times before, I always got it from the library, but now I'm finally rich enough to buy my own copy, lol. The English version was even cheaper than the Czech version here, so I bought the English one (180 CZK - about 6 pounds). :D
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

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Jan wrote:So I have finally bought my own copy of Frank Herbert's Dune (I mean the first, original book). I've read this book about three times before, I always got it from the library, but now I'm finally rich enough to buy my own copy, lol. The English version was even cheaper than the Czech version here, so I bought the English one (180 CZK - about 6 pounds). :D
I think I have read seven of the Dune books.
I really enjoyed the original series. (so I purchased it)
One or two of the 'add-ons' were pretty good, as well.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Trantor »

The first time I read Dune I was in my mid-20s, and I had seen the movie (the David Lynch version) several times before. Maybe there were my mistakes - I watched the movie first and should have read it earlier. All I can say is that while I liked the book, I couldn't quite understand why it is such a classic among SF writing. I then read the second book and barely finished it, I really didn't like it much. A friend of mine told me he thought the second book was ok, but he gave up halfway through the third book, so I wasn't really interested in reading more. :wink:

Funnily enough, I still really like David Lynch's film, even though it has its flaws.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Jan »

Interesting. I've never seen the movie, and I haven't read the other books, I've just read the first Dune for three times and I always considered it a classical sci-fi book (like the Day of the triffids, or the books by Asimov or Clarke, etc.). Maybe it's because I played Dune I and II at the same time, so it somehow connected me the book to those fantastic games.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

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.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by beowuuf »

Oops, forgot to reply here, although I'm sure I have mentioned it before. I indeed saw the film first, when I was quite young, so by the time I read the books at the start of secondary school I had the general memory of the characters and plot without it interfering too much with reading the books.

The first triplogy was fine, but from the second triolgy onwards I felt severe disconnects each book. At least God Emperor of Dune had Paul's son, albeit in such a weird stretched way, but I think I dropped the fifth book half way through as the disconnect of Duncan's younger self/clone and understanding that was what was happening just didn't gel. Never did finish it nor read the sixth book.

Haven't watched the more recent min-series to see if it was any good? The original film took some liberaties with the material (Screaming from worm-back?) and of course was David-l;ynch weird, but it also had enough striking imagery and performances to make me seek out the books in the school library in the first place.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Gambit37 »

I've never read any of Dune, only seen the film which is quite fun in a terrible way. Worth trying to read them as an adult?
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Adamo »

I read first part of Dune (two times!) about 10 years ago. It was quite a good book (but not awesome). I like David Lynch movies, but this one was just terrible.

I had the opposite feeling with the Lord Of the Rings; I didn`t like the book (read only first part and some of the second), but movies were watchable.

I`m not saying these books are bad. Authors put a gigantic work to write them. I just don`t like fictional (fantasy/sf) books now, as much as I did when I was teenager. Being older I can`t stand some inconsistencies in the book/script.
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Jan »

Adamo wrote:I had the opposite feeling with the Lord Of the Rings; I didn`t like the book (read only first part and some of the second)
:shock:
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Gambit37 »

We mentioned China Mieville's "Perdidio Street Station" earlier in this thread (An awesome book, read it!) I've just recently read two more of his "KIng Rat" (his first novel) and "The Scar" -- both very good, in different ways. The Scar is also set in Bas-lag, same as Perdido Street Station. There's an interview with him on the Grauniad today:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/ma ... ting-genre
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Trantor »

About Dune: I thought the first book was alright, but not great. I REALLY had to pull myself together to finish the second book and haven't read on.

Has anyone read the Witcher books from Andrzej Sapkowski? Really good fantasy short stories and novels with lots of irony and fun real-world references. Definitely recommended for fantasy lovers!
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Re: Films you should watch, books you should read

Post by Jan »

Has anyone watched "The Angels' Share" by Ken Loach? I've read very good reviews. Is it worth it?
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