Sar Master

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gobleteer
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Sar Master

Post by gobleteer »

Yep. YET ANOTHER version of DM(II).

Unlike most though, I intend to change the world, add stuff, etc. but not change the graphics. Anyway, I'm looking for some help. Any sprite artists(I need to change many images for non-storm stuff.) and someone to help make it multiplayer(I'm pretty clueless on this.) Anyone wanting to actually help with the programming is welcome too. It will be done in Java, or C++ if any volunteers don't know Java(Yes, it's that early. I decided earlier that I finally knew engough to know I didn't, so I learned some more. Now I'm back, more ready. Did anyone understand that first sentance other than me?)

Anyway, if someone wants to see this done faster, or be multiplayer(a main goal), collabiration would be appreciated.
Last edited by gobleteer on Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Guest »

I have a few questions, because i did not understand:

..keeping graphics?
--> do you mean keep their colour_numbers and/or size?

..change the world?
I did not get you there..do you intend to make it forests and so on or do you want to change the spell system and the abilities and levels?

btw, what is non storm stuff? please clarify.
What do you know about "multiplayer"?
l
thanks in advance.
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Post by gobleteer »

I mean I want to keep the original graphics, not make new ones.

As far as changing the world, I just meant the levels you play in.
Adding some some more levels to the classes, or slowing them down, would also be nice. The spell system is great, though I may add more spells or even a few more symbols. Basically the gameplay will remain the same.

Oops, forgot to say. This is really a version of DM II. That's what I meant - getting rid of the perpetual storm overhead. Storms are abated after the closing of the ZO machine, after all...(Well, not in the game, but you know what I mean)

As far as multiplayer goes, I can probably handle the interfaces(after input/ what output) in game, but the connection to the server and such I don't know about. Basically, the mechanics of the connection. I could handle the relative locations, single world, etc.
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Post by zoom »

Maybe you should do a Levelgenerator/editor for dm2; Many people would like to use one....then start from scratch.
I do not know if it is possible to take a part of the code of dm2 and build it into your own program or if you have to alter dm2´s code to being able to keep the attack computations ect..

If you take parts of dm2 and add multiplayer :

You will need party sprites if parties are facing each other.
(this will definitly not be easy, with all the itemcombination and different things a party can carry around.)

Light level is likely to be another problem concerning the code of dm2, i think.

You will probably have to alter the monster AI, to tell them which party to attack. Maybe you have to alter the number of monsters appearing, to make it a challenge.
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Post by gobleteer »

Well, I wasn't planning on changing DM2.. for most things, it wouldn't work.
It tends to crash when too many items or monster appear, and that's just in single player...

As for the sprites, that is one of the main reasons I need an artist. Still, you don't have to have an individual sprite for each combo... and many of the items wouldn't be visible anyway. Just 2 hands, current action, clothes, each char, and maybe the belt? Still, I couldn't draw any of it on my own...

Light I need to change some anyway, so that's one problem I already have.
As far as attacks and AI go, I'll have to redo them(much as I hate to get rid of the old AI!)

I would need to redo most of the attack stuff anyway unfortunatly, because of the different armour and stuff players can have... not to mention the main problem, which is that the levels increase too fast... I mean, how fun can an online game be if everyone is at the top, equal level in everything in a few hours ?!
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Post by zoom »

Hi there!
You want this game to be an online game?!

Concerning levels:
I ain´t too sure about raising fast in the levels and everyone be on top...
Or have you been able to achieve 4th to 6th. master ninja in a few hours??(i am referring to the experience needed for dm1 )
Probably, you are thinking about the low levels 1-8.
Someone familiar with dmseries will have an advantage over a newbie.
In addition, continued attacks from many low level players are likely to take effect on a high level party.
(With all the items giving extra powers, like fireshield someone two levels higher will still find neophytees a challenge.:)
(get surrounded, ect...)
It has to be tested, though...

Concerning Sprites:
There is more : you have left side =right side, back, and front of party many distances/all with different lightlevels.
then, you have two hands for each of these "sides or perspectives" and clothing/armor, each char(one to four), and action(e.g.has sword ready to strike if you have the menue (swing parry chop) open.)
See poison would be cool, too in case a friendly party wants to help out with an anti-venom potion. of course there is more: Shields...
I think the monsters would have to be redrawn, because they could attack a party, if they are showing their back to your party.( this needn´t to be done i think)

Can you somehow extract the old AI instead of getting rid of it ?? Is this possible? How do you intend to proceed anyway? Plan? The attack computation seems to be rather complicated...so this ain´t be easy.. Look at csbforlinux/windows if you haven´t already, it could be similar.
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Post by gobleteer »

Yes, I meant for dm2
And even the low levels give too much comparative power(compared to monsters, mostly)
I want it to be a bit slower.
As for the dmseries - I doubt anyone else will be playing it!
Ass far as the sprites - I know, I meant sets of sprites. I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying about the hands. And I'm not sure about the readying - Maybe just 2 attack sprites?
Poison, I don't think so... it's not something you can see. Maybe wounds? But that gets too bulky, the less the better, at least at first(especially since any artist would be a volunteer!

"How do you intend to proceed anyway? Plan?"
proceed with what?

Oh, thanks for the csb tip, but I can probably make an ok AI. Might want to check, base my rules off the old system, but again maybe not. Believe me, this is WAY easier to change than the interface anyway. I can just guess and test, probably, for something that works(even if it's not the original.) It would be nice, though, since the original is pretty cool...

So anyone want to help yet?
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Post by ToolMan »

Hi there,
did I understand it right that you want to create a new game, based (partly)on DMII, using the original graphics and adding new ones required for multiplayer support? Is the multiplayer part intended for use inside a LAN or over Internet? (This makes a difference in cheat protection).
gobleteer wrote: "How do you intend to proceed anyway? Plan?"
proceed with what?
Well, I think he meant how you want to proceed with your project. Planning, designing, setting up requirements for the game etc..
That's what I would like to know either :)
gobleteer wrote: So anyone want to help yet?
If this is a just for fun project, which will be given away free when it's ready I am interested. Java and C++ is no problem for me.

More is not possible, because I have a fulltime job as programmer and can only offer some of my spare time..
Bye

P.S How about the graphics copyrights of the game. Are there any problems to be expected when using them?
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Post by gobleteer »

Hi there,
did I understand it right that you want to create a new game, based (partly)on DMII, using the original graphics and adding new ones required for multiplayer support?
As well as maybe some new stuff anyway, but initially yes.(i.e. new items and maybe spells)
Is the multiplayer part intended for use inside a LAN or over Internet? (This makes a difference in cheat protection).
Well, probably Internet, but maybe a direct modem connection? I intended it it to be run on 1 server. As far a cheat protection... I seriously doubt enough people will be playing to worry anyway.

Well, first I need to get somewhat more knowlege-I don't know any File I/O stuff in Java, and definitly not bitmaps(or whatever will be used). So basically I'm going to find out what is needed before planning it(So stuff works together), then make a really cheesy map view version. Then one with only 1 square in front, and finally the rest along with sky.
In order for in-game stuff: Special objects, inventory, objects and immobile monsters, moving monsters(not neccisarily yet with AI), and finally spells.
Multiplayer will definitly be added last.

Right now help with file I/O and graphics are most needed. Also, I have no idea on mouse or keyboard, but(at least keyboard) can find these out. So anyone able to help with these, please do!

>If this is a just for fun project, which will be given away free when it's ready I am >interested. Java and C++ is no problem for me.
Well, it's just for fun, and will definitly be free, but might involve quite a bit of time even if it is fun - I want to actually finish it, and that'll take quite a bit of effort. Tha's one reason why help is appreciated - it's that much quicker.

>P.S How about the graphics copyrights of the game. Are there any problems to be >expected when using them?
No, again because I don't expect anyone outside of this DM community to play.


And how much time does anyone here have? I'm in school, so I really don't have a good idea.
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Post by ToolMan »

Hi,
it looks to me that you're not very experienced in planning and doing a bigger project,
so I think it's better to clear up some facts, before.
To avoid any misunderstanding:
This is intended to be a friendly advice (I found out that's not so easy to find the
right words reflecting the real intention if you use a language, which is not the native one..)

gobleteer wrote: Well, probably Internet, but maybe a direct modem connection?
I intended it it to be run on 1 server.
As far a cheat protection... I seriously doubt enough people will be playing to worry anyway.
Doubt it or not. If you give away a program there will be definitely people trying to cheat an internet based game
(Diablo I is the best example for it).
Imagine the following scenes:
1. A few people playing in a Lan. One has hacked your program and is wandering around and killing all others, because
he pitched up his stats to be indestructable. What happens? The one who does it will be found out quite fast, and
being banned from the game (at least you can pull out his network connection).

2. The same scene, but people from all over the world are playing, with changing IP addresses everytime they dial in.
What is the result ? Right you cannot ban him or prevent the game from being messed up by more of those freaks.
This means that in a short time nobody will have more interest in playing your game.
gobleteer wrote:
Well, first I need to get somewhat more knowlege-I don't know any File I/O stuff in Java, and definitly not bitmaps(or whatever will be used). So basically I'm going to find out what is needed before planning it(So stuff works together), then make a really cheesy map view version. Then one with only 1 square in front, and finally the rest along with sky.
In order for in-game stuff: Special objects, inventory, objects and immobile monsters, moving monsters(not neccisarily yet with AI), and finally spells.
Multiplayer will definitly be added last.
This is what me makes think you really have no experience in designing games.
Believe me, if you do it this way there will definitely be no multiplayer mode, or you will find out that
you have to re-write everything...
If you are planning to have multiplayer support you have to design the whole game with it!
And BTW single player mode is only a special type of multiplayer with only one player connected to the game master.
gobleteer wrote: Right now help with file I/O and graphics are most needed. Also, I have no idea on mouse or keyboard, but(at least keyboard) can find these out. So anyone able to help with these, please do!
If you need information about it or short sample code I can provide some to you.
Both fields are not very complicated with Java. I am sure you will figure it out easily,
but as a reference I recommend to buy a good Java book.

gobleteer wrote: Well, it's just for fun, and will definitly be free, but might involve quite a bit of time even if it is fun -
I want to actually finish it, and that'll take quite a bit of effort. Tha's one reason why help is appreciated - it's that much quicker.
So what do you think will such a project take? A normal game which is not really state of the art needs about 15-18 month
development time for a FULLTIME development team consisting of 4 to 8 people. In this case the graphics are mostly ready
for use, so it may be a bit shorter, but what do you expect as time schedule for this being a spare time project?

gobleteer wrote: >P.S How about the graphics copyrights of the game. Are there any problems to be >expected when using them?
No, again because I don't expect anyone outside of this DM community to play.
This is really funny. What makes you think that it is legal to distibute copyrighted material inside this community?
The only way would be to give away the game without any copyrighted graphics, so that every legal owner of the graphics has
to rip them himself. For example in germany you are breaking copyright law if make this stuff available to people you don't
know personnaly and which are not part of your family. I think this will apply to about 100 % of the forum users..
I don't want to sound paranoied, but there are lots of lawyers out there having fun with making money with such lazy
treatment of copyrights..

Once again, this is not meant destructive, but I think you should think about a lot of stuff, before starting to avoid
many mistakes being made by so much people, nevertheless keep up your enthusiasm..
Bye
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Post by linflas »

hmmm... llots of people would lost any enthusiasm after reading that kind of post. :(

globeteer, i definitely agree with zooom : you should try to code a DMII editor. George coded DMute first, then RTC.
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Post by ToolMan »

linflas wrote:hmmm... llots of people would lost any enthusiasm after reading that kind of post. :(
I HOPE NOT ! :shock:

The thing is only that starting and finishing such a project needs a looong breath. I think everyone who finished a longer project would agree with it. So I think anybody with the will to do this and finish it should be aware of the amount of will, work, patience an time that is needed. I personnaly think that this is mostly underestimated, which is why so many projects die and are not finished.

Not talking about it does not change the facts, but knowing the pits is the
way to avoid them :wink:

And if I wouldn't think it can be done, why should I offer my help with it?
Could be easier for me to say nothing.

So again:

To gobleteer:
What I can offer to your project is lots of experience in software development and some coding, at least some tools, but limited time.
Take it or leave it, its up to you.

To all other:
Don't lose enthusiasm only when hearing about, what lies in your way, just recognize it and try harder. :)
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Post by beowuuf »

Multiplayer - good point, if you do want multiplayer, it sdounds reasonable to have the provisions fro mthe start. The idea of a single player being a solo multiplayer game soudns reasonable. I'm not sure how other game woudl handle it. I imagine the dungeon and player are seperate. All the dungeon events are happenign o nthe main computer hosting the game. Every 'tick' in turn each player samples the dungeon in turn for status. Each player's inventory, actions etc are handles seperately, and every tick anything they have done to the dungeon is reported back to the dungeon.
In single player then this would be just like normal. I would suggets for multiplayer each person controlling a party, not a pary member. So you basically play your own DM game, and all you really come up in multiplayer against for players are monsters with more intelligence...

Cheating - it would never be so big that you have an autonomous host. i would guess as long as the person hosting has the ability to kick ban whoever they want that should satisfy the rare occasiona they would have to use it. If each player also reports stats back to the main computer, you could have auto-bans for sudden health doubling, leveling up by four grades, etc.
You could even introduce multiplier biasing for each player - if they are gettign too high compared to everyone else, experience is less, and vice versa.

Copyright - I think you need to worry more for artwork, etc than anything else. As long as you keep the graphics and so on seperate for mthe rest of the engine, and easily configurable, then if there is ever a copyright problem you can switch away. There is a copyright infringement with all the clones, but currently no one is kicking up a fuss, i assume, since it is a small community, with no profits beign made by the clones, nor profits lost by the copyright holders. With the exception of CSBwin all the other clones could switch away far enough from their DM roots to be acceptable again, i believe. Just keep this flexibility in your project, but you hopefully won't find it a problem. Make sure you keep an eye out for people using your programme in ways you don't want, as then that could bring trouble on everyone.

edit: this took about 4 hours to post : )
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Post by gobleteer »

I realize most of what you said about multiplayer; I just don't know how yo put it in until I have at least a simple interface first, that's all - I intend to plan around it. And as far as single player goes, I don't want to have one - I just meant for testing stuff before it finishes. Though maybe a small training area, though this could be online too...
But you can design it with multiplayer, without actually having the multiplayer yet is what I'm trying to say.

I know it wouldn't be any more legal in a small community - I just meant that nobody here would make a fuss about it(I should hope).

beuwuuf - "With the exception of CSBwin all the other clones could switch away far enough from their DM roots to be acceptable again, i believe"
what? Except MAYBE DMJava, CSB is farthest away!

I have experience with large projects (I think that you mean the program, not distribution, correct me if I'm wrong here.), just not haveing more than 1 person work on it.

I expect the programming to take at least 2-4 years, but that's without help...
I'm in school, so I have more free time than many people.

Again, what I said about the small community for cheating. Since likely no more than 20 people or so are playing, a password system could be put in.
Other than that, I really don't know enough about making a server, as I said before, to say.

Thanks for offering to help with stuff... the mouse will be the biggst problem (Because I've never done mouse even outside of Java). And I have the Core Java book by Sun, but it doesn't really have advanced stuff, just reference. What I really need is someone to ask for advice, not a good book. A book is great, but never has everything.

Edit: Oops, missed one. I am NOT doing an editor. Period. No offence intended.


Anything else?
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Post by cowsmanaut »

beuwuuf - "With the exception of CSBwin all the other clones could switch away far enough from their DM roots to be acceptable again, i believe"
what? Except MAYBE DMJava, CSB is farthest away!
What Fuzzface was syaing is that most of the clones are capable of altering their playing style and graphics easily so as to become in essence a game Based on DM rather than an enhanced clone of DM. The only exception being CSBwin which is so deeply rooted into the DM code frame that it would be more difficult alter enough to be unique enough to be outside the copyright infringement. Infact It would probably require a nearly a complete rewrite of most of the code.

DM Java is written from scratch. Most of the graphics were replaced but some were added back in as drawn over versions. it's those few items and perhaps some of the spells that are still DM.. beyond that.. it's pretty unique.

moo
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Post by beowuuf »

CSBwin is, and Paul can correct me if I am wrong, a direct copy of the original atari code into a different format. So there, I imagine the engine is still breaking copyright (like me trying to sell the english translation of a french novel and claiming i'm breaking no law) aswell as the fact it uses all the original files too.

All the other clones are original code, so and with a quick switch of graphic, some names, etc, they would probbaly escape from copyright.

Anyway, this is all OT - as you say, small community, no one is kicking up a fuss - just wanted to clarify the position : )
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Post by beowuuf »

cows said it better than me!

anyway, good luck with it al...l
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Post by gobleteer »

Oh, ok. I didn't know that's how CSB was made.
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Post by ToolMan »

Hi all,

Beowuuf:

Your'e right. The way to do it is to use the networking stuff from the beginning. Even on the same machine you do not directly use keyboard and mouse actions, but instead use a separated client which collects this information and exchanges it with the game master (server) via network sockets. The really hard parts of this communication are not to establish a network connection (which is easy in Java), but the timing issues involved. The game master (server) must take into account, when a connected user may receive a game message (ping time)
and also the speed of the used client computer. This matters extremely, because a player with a fast ping time and fast computer will react much faster than a player using a slow machine and having a bad network connection. This will result in advantages for the fast player, which can make a game nearly unplayable.

The Cheating thing:
The suggestion with password protection is a good idea, nevertheless the player stats should also be saved on the server, to see if something changed in the meantime, and also should be monitored through the game for uncommon changes.
As a consequence this would mean that a player entity (party or single avatar) is unique to a multiplayer session, instead of being unique to the player. To re-use the entity with other sessions, it might be useful to allow a controlled exit of an entity, with a controlled (by humans) join operation in another session, where all stats are displayed to ease decision.


The copyright thing:

Ok, this issue should not prevent us from starting...
Maybe it's a good idea to ask for permission!? Actually I don't know who is owner of the main copyright, mostly it's the publisher of the game..
The game is quite outdated now and normally the publisher should'nt loose anything if we use the graphics for a non profit game...



To gobleteer:
To start with the multiplayer stuff you don't need to know anything about the mouse or keyboard (which is not really complicated also), but a little knowledge about doing a network connection. Just create a URL object and open a network socket to a port of your choice. Then you can implement the protocol (you designed previously :wink: ) for the client-server communication and you will be able to inject every game message about mouse, keyboard or whatsoever without coming from a real source. This tests can be removed by the real implementations step by step. The code of the game master (server) should be completely separated from the client (the player module). Keep always in mind that the network connection is the ONLY way of communication between both. If you need any help with getting started drop me a private message with your eMail address and I will send you a short demo code...

My suggestion where to go on from here is the following:

- Start writing down your ideas and requirements for the game (If not done already).
- After that we look at it together and decide what can be done and what not.
- In the meanwhile we tune up your Java skills a bit with little testprograms containing some of the less complicated issues we will encounter during development, so that the results are re-usable in the game..(Opening network connections, a chat system, using Swing and Java2D and so on..)


Any more suggestions?

-And last but not least every more help is highly appreciated :D
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Post by cowsmanaut »

with regards to the owner .. that would still be Wayne Holder who is apparenlty aware of our community and what it is we are doing. Providing correct amount of respect is shown (ie crediting those involved in the orriginal) and it's maintained as a non profit venture, i would imagine Wayne would not go out of his way to bring you to court.

If you look at the number of clones already in this community.. you can see that copyright is not a big issue untill you want to make money.

moo
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Post by ToolMan »

From my side I don't have any financial interests in selling the game..
Looks to me like a fair agreement.. :)
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Post by gobleteer »

Well, I couldn't find any sontact information for Mr. Holder(Also the music artist! Hey.), so I'll just see if he says anything. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions.
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Post by Tom Hatfield »

I only skimmed this entire thread, but I'd like to make a comment on the weather of Zalk (the world of DM2). The Season of Storms does not occur because the Zo gate is open; it's a natural phenomenon. It would be reasonable to integrate it into your world, along with any regular, non-stormy seasons that we haven't yet seen. As you recall, people left Zalk during the Season of Storms to do business elsewhere, but then they came back. It'd be really cool to see this transition in action.

As ToolMan has stated more than once, this is a VERY big endeavor you're talking about. It's good that you're asking for help. That puts you in the position of team leader, which means you must keep everyone motivated. When your motivation dwindles, so does everyone else's, and the project dies. If you aren't 100 percent into this project, you really ought to find something else and maybe come back to it once you have some experience.

One out of every thousands independent projects will see completion. Ninety-nine percent of failed projects end prematurely because the development team got bored with it. Losers give up when they're tired; winners give up when they've won.

Why not ignore the multi-player aspect for the time being, write what is essentially a DM2 clone — much like RTC, but perhaps with more original code — I for one would LOVE to see a Windows version of DM2 — and then utilize what you gain from this project. Obviously you'll have a map editor to work with, and some source code modules. Throw in network support, build a new game world, and voila! You have your own mostly-original game.

Advice from someone who's been there. Take it with salt, as always. Don't forget to update everyone on your progress. The people here are pretty good at encouraging clone-makers. We like it when people keep the dream alive.
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