please test my New Clone - a final year uni project

toby · Post by **toby** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:39 pm

Hi All,

I've just finished producing my third year project for my degree. It was a clone of Dungeon Master in 3D. It requires the .NET runtime as it is written in C#. It uses the Axiom 3D game engine for graphics, which aren't amazing but at the moment the emphasis is on the mechanics. Therefore it is quite primitive graphics wise at the moment. But as Axiom is a direct9 engine these will be improved massively once my project is finished.

Anyway I really really need testers for it, as part of my degree this is a requirement. So thought the best testers would be the original players, you guys. Please could you take the time to try and fill in teh test form for me, it is available here:

http://64.17.163.116/toby/project/test%20review.htm

thanks for your time,

Toby

please note: download the lowres one if you are running in less than 1024X768 resolution

Post by **Gambit37** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:47 pm

I'll certainly take a look when I get a spare minute.

I deleted your other copies of this message -- it's pointless and annoying posting the same thing in more than one category.

toby · Post by **toby** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:40 pm

Sorry for spamming your forum - I just wanted to get as much broadcast for it as possible. Thanks for looking
Toby

toby · Post by **toby** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:57 pm

Just incase your interested in what seperates my clone from all others I thought I'd write a list of why I think mine is good:

- Its a complete re-engineering, with no reliance on original source.
- The GUI and GameMechanics are completely seperate. e.g. it is possible to run a game without a GUI, or with a completely different GUI. All you would have to do is add the GameMechanics.dll to a .NET project. This could prove beneficial as it automatically means it could be implemented on pocketpc, java, etc. Also means others who are more graphically skilled could use my GameMechanics to manage there games in their clones. This is my main point. Why? becuase I have seen alot of clones that produce good graphics quickly, but unless you have Dungeon Master's mechanics to back it up they seem to quickly sink. And DM's engine is actually alot more complicated than you might think.
- It uses Axiom3D, a c# DirectX 9 engine port of Ogre3D c++ engine. Capable of loading .mk2 files and .bsp files, these file types are native to quake 3 for example. http://www.axiom3d.org/ or http://www.ogre3d.org/
- It uses goal driven modern AI, which I could expand upon vastly if need be, and had the time.

Unfortunately due to it being a University project I have deadlines so its not nearly as finished as I would have liked it to be. Like there's no sound (an easy thing to implement btw), and if you fall down the pits it doesnt animate just teleports, enemies don't animate. Too many tweaks to mention. But the important thing is the essential functionality is there.

Any questions please ask

pls note: more things are implemented in the game than the GUI utilises, e.g the game mechanics contains a full complement of spells, but the gui only uitilises fireball and door open.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:32 pm

Java and .NET games that require me to install a new lagre framework just to test it are not appealing to me. Even though I worked on DMJava.. I still complained and whined about having to download and install that.

Also, the last time I downloaded the .net framework and Java some webpage managed to take advantage of it (or it was a rather interesting coincidence) shortly after i had installed it and allowed new software to be installed on my computer.. thus leading me to reinstall windows from scratch. Even with two fire walls.. get that if you can.. one hardware and one software.. and a virus checking program..

That aspect aside.. if people have a 56k modem still or even just a bad connection.. they won't be too happy at the prospect of having to download all that. Then there is space to think of as well. I mean if this is the only reason we are installing it (likley in most peoples case) and ther e is nothing else we use it for.. why is taking up so much space?

now.. that I have whined and complained.. I will let you know that there is a GNU compiler which will add the required .NET libraries and code that you need for just *your* program and bake it into the exe.. this way they don't need to download the whole thing and install it.. they can just run yours and off the go.

can't remember the name of it but it was a GNU C# .NET compiler.. look on google or dogpile..

moo

Post by **PaulH** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:12 pm

I have to agree with the Great Moo to some extent, I am not happy about having to download all that, install this etc. So I haven't! I will be the first to admit I know next to sod all about computers, and like things to sorta work straight away! Simple functionality is a great design goal.

However, I have looked at the screenshots and am impressed, and I like the concept and your bold goals for this project. It is true that many other 3d projects have fallen by the wayside, for whatever reason, and I hope you pull this off. When it is fully working and reliable, I will probably investigate playing it. But the questionaire is a little unrealistic. It is difficult to compare a 'retro' RPG 2d game to a project 18 years later asking whether they prefer one to the other, or whether one is an 'improvement'. Especially one that isn't yet finished. Are the new Star Wars an improvement on the original trilogy?

I think I speak for the common man, the person who is most likely to have played DM first time round: it needs to be easy to install and use, and very playable form the off.

Post by **Gambit37** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:18 pm

.NET is great for programmers. It's not so great for end users.

Post by **PaulH** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:58 pm

BTW, the link in your profile doesn't work! I suspect it is a letter case problem. If it wasn't for miserable old gits like me moaning all the time, nowt would be put right

Post by **Gambit37** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:05 am

Just one comment for now: Absolutely shocking that the system cursor is grabbed and not released back to Windows. It should use a separate cursor.

This is a fundamental usability issue and I'm sorry but I won't test it any further unless you fix that.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:59 am

Wow, thanks for all your comments, I think.

1. About the .NET rant. Firstly I admit its a big thing to download and install. But it is also, as someone said, very quick for programmers. Considering this is for now a third year project that is why I have chosen it. To do with the security issue someone mentioned, I doubt that is a problem anymore, .NET has received many version updates from the original 1.0 framework, and will be 2.0 soon enough. Another reason for using .NET is portability, it is become alot more portable than other runtimes. And the final point on .NET is that it will be an integral part of microsoft's next OS, so it is here to stay. And that OS is not far off.

2. I should have made the instructions more clear. Unless you don't already have .net you only need the 10 mb file. I would recommend the lowres for anyone running in less than 1280x1024 resolution.

3. The questionnaire is part of my University project. I agree that it is hard to compare it to the old dungeon master but the way made it my university project feasible was to say that I was going to "Remake Dungeon Master as a legacy system". Therefore the emphasis of the project is on taking a peice of legacy software and redesigning it using modern techniques. If I had not given my project this emphasis they would not have allowed me to take it on. Therefore I ask you to fill in the questionnaire on a purely academic basis.

4. I plan to continue the project once Uni is finished as I am a big Dungeon Master fan. I have implemented the majority of the mechancis for it already, and my emphasis will be on perfecting this. This is so that in the future people could use it as a basis for their clones. I will also try graphics, but start with this. To see the design for the mechanics go here (please note this design is slightly out of date):
http://www.eliya.co.uk/dmproject/CodeCo ... Master.HTM

If anyone is interested I came up with this design after creating 35 UML modelling diagrams. How many clones have been designed in such a way?

Anyway thanks for your thoughts. Hope you reconsider and agree to test it, but if not and the reason is downloading the .net framework I understand that.

Toby

Post by **Gambit37** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:03 am

Did you see my comment above about the mouse cursor? Sorry, but I won't test it further unless you fix that. No software that runs in a window should capture the system cursor in this way. It's simply poor usability.

toby · Post by **toby** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:03 am

Whoops I posted that as guest. About the cursor grab gambit. I haven't got time to fix it before I hand it in, as it is done by the game engine and I need to examine the engine closer in order to do it. I also was not happy when I originally implemented it like that, but it is still playable..

Toby

toby · Post by **toby** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:04 am

Ok, I'll have a quick look see if I can't figure it out.

Post by **Gambit37** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:04 am

Heh, simultaneous posting!

Well, if I were a teacher assessing a project like this, I'd be looking not just the game but how it operates in context. You've broken a fundamental usability concept of Windows; I'd frown on that.

toby · Post by **toby** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:07 am

Hehe, well, as I said, the emphasis of the project is functionality not graphics. My supervisor suggested I implement it using graphics that were already in existence, but when i came back with transparent windows, and full 3d he was impressed enough to not notice cursor grabbing. ANd anyway, I could always demo it in full screen, then you would never know

toby · Post by **toby** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:12 am

PaulH wrote:BTW, the link in your profile doesn't work! I suspect it is a letter case problem. If it wasn't for miserable old gits like me moaning all the time, nowt would be put right

thanks, it does now

Its in my signature anyway

toby · Post by **toby** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:13 am

cowsmanaut wrote:I will let you know that there is a GNU compiler which will add the required .NET libraries and code that you need for just *your* program and bake it into the exe..
moo

I'd be interested in something like that. I'll look into it

Post by **Gambit37** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:21 am

Hehe, well, as I said, the emphasis of the project is functionality not graphics

If that's the case, then it's even more ironic that you break standard Windows functionality!

The whole point of a GUI like Windows is that it's operation is standard across all applications -- I should be able to click the X to close your application down, but I can't because you've grabbed the cursor. This is really bad design, and is what I was referring to when I mentioned context -- how the game plays in context with standard Windows operation. I realise that this is an 'unpolished' project -- but it's no excuse for what's happened here. If nothing else, it's rude to break a standard functionality that users expect to work the way it always has worked for them in the past.

Anyway, I'm sorry but I won't test the software with this flaw in it. However, I do wish you luck with it -- the screenshots look promising and I'm sure your hard work will pay off.

Post by **Gambit37** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:40 am

A quick solution would be to make the game run fullscreen -- at lest then it won't imply that it sticks to Windows standards. This is what most commercial games do.

My previous posts sound harsh. I'm getting older and grumpier and less patient with badly designed or written software. It's unfortunate that your game has a flaw that is a real bugbear with me. Please don't take it personally.

toby · Post by **toby** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:44 am

This is true, and I did run it in full screen originally. The problem is that each graphics card seems to provide different full screen support, so the game always looked different depending on the computer you ran it on. Therefore I went windowed for simplicity, I'm sure it must be possible to release the mouse anyway..

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:30 am

heh.. people are tough here

It's feedback like that, that helps us improve all the time though. As near as I can tell from experience is that the people honest and ballsy enough to say what they don't like share opinions with many others who have not the courage to speak out. So I always remember one person critiquing my work could in fact be speaking for a large number of people and always take it with a grin and just think about it seriously.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand..

The issue I was reffering to was about 2 months ago.. so I doubt they made that many big changes since. Also since both Java and .NET were added within about a couple of days from eachother I can't be sure which of them helped in the incident. I'd have to have been logging processes 24/7 for that

I've a few friends who are programmers and one of them as his class project made a Tetris clone.. (as is common for school projects of this type) and used the .NET framework.. I downloaded it only to play his game and give him feedback.. I paid with the loss of about 30 megs of lost data and a week of slowly reinstalling windows from scratch.. well I tried to repair the damaged windows first for about 3 days.. it was as much IE's fault as it was the other two.. just already so many ways to get into my computer I don't want to create potential for more.. Not to mention due to issues I already have with hardware and servicepack 2 conflicts I can't get all the latest security updates.. it's insane..

as it stands my loading an EXE to begin with from someone I don't know is already risky bussiness.. My computer is my work.. and there are many others like me. I should also say that I deal with a network of about 50 computers in the 1 college I work at.. trying to keep them up and running. that's just in our area.. and the college has about 7, I think, firewalls before you even reach the outside. Yet still we get nasty virus' and spyware and students insisting they didn't install anything new.

(that's when I notice the little mouse pointer now looks like pikachu or something and know they are lying.. well, not all of them but some)

(just so you know, I have a good deal of experience with computers and their problems.. even though I often claim I'm just a dumb artist)

anyway, you will probably find that when the new windows comes out and we all have 64bit processors that the .NET framework will be already integrated into the OS and we'll stop whining and just treat it like DX.. however untill then. It's hard to get the end user to agree to something new and scary.. and a big download..

I hope we don't dscourage you from your efforts.. most of us are always eager to see a new version of DM. Just have to remember when dealing with people paying or not.. they want things to be easy for them. if it's too much effort or seems off to them.. they won't want it.

moo

(man I'm long winded sometimes.. )

oh.. PS, your AVI for the intro is too big. Won't play at full speed here.

Post by **linflas** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:39 am

here's my review, as a cruel and stupid gamer.. sorry if i'm too tough !
- graphics/textures need really some improvement, but you already talked about this.
- engine is cool when going forward and backward but too slow for turning : you didn't implement strafe movements which could be very interesting.
- an excellent point is UI : very close to DM and having good response.
- another thing i noticed is map format (bsp and mk2) : i just know theses extensions because i played quake and mk2 a lot but could they be useable in a simple level editor, if you plan to make one ?

PS. you avi is very big and really unnecessary (why the hell did i downloaded it ?)

Post by **Gambit37** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:54 am

Toby wrote:And the final point on .NET is that it will be an integral part of microsoft's next OS, so it is here to stay

Great. More f*cking bloat in an already bloated and unresponsive OS. If it's not for the fact that I have to use Windows for work, that's going to be a great reason to finally move to Mac or Linux.

Post by **linflas** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:08 am

how happy i am for not being a coder

toby · Post by **toby** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:49 pm

cowsmanaut wrote:heh.. people are tough here

Your right there, but I am always prepared for criticism. But remember I am not claiming my clone to be perfect or even finished in any way.

linflas wrote:PS. you avi is very big and really unnecessary (why the hell did i downloaded it ?)

The preview is too big, and unnecissary. It was put there when this project was still private and sheltered from the world hehe. I guess now I've posted it on this forum I should remove such unnecissary media. Not to mention that if you all download it from eliya.co.uk my bandwidth will be dead, I think I only have a 100mb capacity hehe. The game is hosted on a server where I have a 10 GB p/m bandwidth capacity..

If it's not for the fact that I have to use Windows for work, that's going to be a great reason to finally move to Mac or Linux.

I agree, I happen to be a avid linux fan. I run a version called gentoo linux. But unfortunately my Uni is an avid microsoft fan, partly becuase microsoft throw all their software at them for free. For example I get all the microsoft softwares, all of them, for free from my uni. They're buying the next generation of developers out man!

Anyway thanks to everyone for your comments. Keep them coming

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:17 pm

would you like feed back on your art too? I noticed that suddenly showed up

I'm fairly blunt at that too.. but it's my bread and butter so most of what I say is true and based on experience. So I often get away with my bluntness

Also, gotta remember that if you do what I suggest.. i gain nothing.. if you don't do what I suggest.. I gain nothing. So what am I getting out of it? nothing. So why am I doing it?......

for you.

moo

Post by **Zyx** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:04 pm

I downloaded it, tried the highres exe, a window appeared with a small part out of screen (i was in 1152*864). I wanted to move it, but impossible, no mouse. Then I needed to move it to access another application, in vain. I closed the program with ALT+F4, and after adressing my other priorities, I tried again the highres, but nothing happened, as if the program was still in memory. So, I reset my computer, and when I thought about trying once more, I said naaaa.

So, here are my comments about my first playtesting: ^ ^
Making a program user-friendly, foolproof and multiconfig is incredibly hard, but it's the basis of distribution. You need to work on it first before anything else if you want to show your clone to a community of aficionados without repelling them. Your release came too early, I guess.

I would gladly test your clone once the UI is fixed.

toby · Post by **toby** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:46 am

Ok new version available, with choice of full screen mode, and esc key to exit. Resolution chooser too, although it runs best in 1024x768 and not well above or below.

Now to respond to the current constructive criticism:

Zyx wrote: Making a program user-friendly, foolproof and multiconfig is incredibly hard, but it's the basis of distribution. You need to work on it first before anything else if you want to show your clone to a community of aficionados without repelling them. Your release came too early, I guess.

Your right, I just thought you might test my uni project thats all. My deadline is three weeks, and I have a big report to write on it so can't do any more development on it till after uni is finished. I only posted it here becuase my professor said it would be good to get original players to test it.

cowsmanaut wrote:would you like feed back on your art too? I noticed that suddenly showed up

Think I might pass on that for now

. Maybe I should have kept it private huh.

Anyway, for those who wouldnt test it becuase of the windowed problems. running it in full screen should work..

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:30 am

Just so you don't give up hope, I will try to test it this evening, but I am one of those people who don't yet have .NET on my computer, as there was never any need to install it.

If it messes up my computer in any way, bad karma will will happen to you! : )

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:48 am

Well when you change your mind I have some tips that would greatly improve your mines of moria inspire scene.

I'm not nasty about it.. just straight to the point..

moo