Dungeon "Grand"Master redux

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ParuNexus
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Dungeon "Grand"Master redux

Post by ParuNexus »

http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=21277
link to old thread...
It's apparent I never released it, I frankly Don't even remember what happened to it. I am Right now Hard at work recreating it... Right now for PC dos, Once Fully completed I'll be making 2 versions for RTC, the first will be EXACT port, so no ruins or extra stuff. then an enhanced version which is likely to test out fighter and ninja magic among other features.

But right now thats neither here nor there. So i'm here to talk about the current project: # of monsters and generators should be finished. a few things to note: This is going to be EXTREME hack and slash game... one Idea I'm aiming for is making sure people can't just power walk thou the whole game. So every so often you will find a VERY STRONG monster. I already have like a 300 HP mummy group with 3 "normal" Level 1 mummys and thats BEFORE you get any flasks to heal. So remember to run back close off area's and to war cry some fighter levels.

Other details as per old thread: All normal food is now dragon stakes. However not all food remained food, so in a spot where you find bread and some cheese you might find one dragon stake and a waterskin or a green magic box. ALL normal torch's are BURNT OUT. All blue magic box's are now green. there are 4 cloaks of the night in the dungeons below(besides gothmog's).
Most weapons will be replaced by staff's Most thrown items will be throwing stars. All arrows are now slayers. You will find more copies of Special items in the game. Potions some of the "beta" ones will be in game, All potions should be Mon.
One thing that will NOT change(atleast unless someone would like to help me on this part) is any chested\carried Items will remain untoched.

I am seeking opinions on it, I esp would like help with level 0, right now i completely reworked the path to all the characters, but haven't figured out a good way to give a hint to where the fake walls are. Some passages will be important later on when i get near finished. Ideally I'd like to have a fake\imaginary wall to look a little off but right now i got a few wall text near them that I'm trying to figure out.
Speaking of level editing Every so often I'll change something normally however it will be making imaginary walls to hide some of the more powerful items. I'd like to change the paths but that is a maybe and will be the Final thing done. Puzzles will remain the same, not going to change any text or alter characters.

This is a very Slow and long term project. I think over all maybe 5% complete despite food and water finished.

Dragon will have LOTS more HP. remember pressure pad's esp activating monster generators is set to everything. I may be Extra evil and move a special item on one of those pad's to help generate monsters.
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zoom
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Post by zoom »

As I see it, you aim for players that want to wipe out the
whole level have a challenge get all items in overkillmode..that's ok..Alas, that could become frustrating or at least a bit tedious for them when monsters keep respawning, basically blocking the way out (or in). (at first thought)

:arrow: People know DM by heart. They will remember where to get critical items from and when it is not wise to battle a monster that gives you nothing but smoke in return,
like mummies.(apart from levels, but there you go, deeper in the dungeon monsters give more xp).
Afair, in original DM, the only monsters you really needed to destroy is a knight on level 12 (for some people that's level 11). And probably one or 2 screamers on lv1?
I would probably have stages.
Party has to backtrack to level 1 for placing a ruby in wall, thus clearing the way downwards?(disabling generators)). Dungeon master is pretty straightforward-a very linear game; it does no good to go back up, apart from level 7.
CSB is different there, some people like it better than dm.
Anyway

Have you watched the speedruns of DM ? Lots of dodging
monsters (since you don't need to kill them at all) and then
more dodging! Quite an impressive approach on beating the
game. Could be relevant to your modification ideas.
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Gambit37
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Post by Gambit37 »

Welcome back Paru!

Good luck with your dungeon conversion. It sounds like it's not my kind of dungeon, but I'm sure others will enjoy it.

I don't like swarms of too-powerful monsters. I'm more interested in story, puzzles and subtle game-play.
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ParuNexus
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Post by ParuNexus »

I'd say it's more a hack 'n slash demo. something more simple but feature length. I am more of a fan of puzzles and do enjoy avoid killing, so this helps practice the more tedious "slaughter fest" parts of rpg. so here is to a DM 1.2 or something. Perhaps by the time it comes to port to rtc may really do it from scratch.
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ParuNexus
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MASSIVE overhaul

Post by ParuNexus »

ok Alot has changed now. originally level maps were the exact same as DM that is no longer true. Infact in some places you do have to find the imaginary wall. Some items(i think more early) remain in the same spot but almost always the path is altered. so the hidden item in "the matrix" might be someplace else in area. Once in a LONG while a secret path may skip over some area's to get items early.

Harder monsters, example that worm level prisoner part is going to be "interesting", for a few reasons :)
Almost done beating skeleton level, One Extremely long battle(over 30 monsters) at the end, lets just say "Skeletons, Wasps and Beholders OH MY!"

Items are out of balance, beta items(mostly potions) have been changed.
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TyGuy6
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Post by TyGuy6 »

hmm. I've always thought something like this should be done. Just remember to leave some bits intact so that it still feels like DM. IMHO, the key is to make it appeal to those who have played DM over and over again for its classic-ness, but find it too easy now. Where they would expect to solve a puzzle one way, you could make that way lead to a trap, and force them to rethink it.
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sucinum
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Post by sucinum »

Hey Paru,
I made a dungeon with a similar approach (Imprisoned Again) and found out that it's very tedious to balance a hard dungeon.
Simply stuffing HP on monsters won't help, because after you got a tactic to beat it, it's only some clicks to do. It can be a nice surprise here and there, but you should clearly avoid making levels full of 2000 hp knights.

Also monster generation is tricky. You can place triggers everywhere and basically force a player to do a certain place in one go. In the end, you will see that people will swarm everything with monsters and be very frustrated, especially if they happen to fight around the trigger and so face endless waves. Original DM has some rare places where respawns happen, but it's important to spread that across several rooms to avoid swarming.

Also puzzles are very important. I once counted the small and huge puzzles DM has and it's really a lot. I mean, it's riddle after riddle. You don't even recognize them anymore when playing it for the 374096th time, but they are there. Sometimes subtle and easy, but they are still important for the flow. A riddle doesn't have to stop a player for more than a few seconds ("this is my prisoner"), but you need lots of them to reward the player. For good measure, try to put at least 5 riddles in a level, which means a total of at least 60 in a dungeon of DM size. Count in DM and you will see that's not even much.

The other way round with mazes. I tried some small invisible wall mazes and people hate them with passion. I cheat in my own dungeon to circumvent them.

I didn't play every handmade dungeon, but i can surely claim that the latest version of Imprisoned Again has a very good monster balancing. It might lack some riddles and some are quite stupid (like jumping down a pit :D), but i tried to keep the atmossphere up with some theming (which DM mostly lacks, it's only a dungeon going deeper and deeper). And the fights are great.

Pure hack&slash will bore people, you need to find a balance. The more h&s, the more/better riddles and stuff you will need.
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beowuuf
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Post by beowuuf »

Wise words - and more importantly, nice to see you still around sucinum :D
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zoom
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Post by zoom »

yes, definitely cool post. thought about adding it/parts of it into
the DM wiki....
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ParuNexus
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further progress

Post by ParuNexus »

thanks, I'll have to take a look at that dungeon sometime.
yeah i Kinda notice similar things while playing. I'm just about ready to start playing it over again. but I think i'll load 2 DMutes one with original map and then my map. Re alter parts to be more like the original and take out alot of the fake walls.

I'll make the last alteration from skeleton level more like how I played it, NOT having having a teleport linking room with like 40+ wasps, skeletons and beholders. mixed together. and to be honest you don't need to to fight a room full of skeletons and wasps in one big fight.

Yes there will be sometimes that will be more annoying or good items that you have to back track abit(HIGHLY recommend once you get one character to go back before entering the hall of champions).

Somethings I haven't quiet figured out and other things I'm testing so hopefully I'll have some other tricks.

When i RTC it I'm leaning more towards almost a complete overhaul.
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