[DSB] Unintended Heroism

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Jan
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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Jan » 26-Aug-12 18:11

Damn it. I overlooked the
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Key of B
left there by the Dragon. :(

Plus I chose the hard way. Damn it!

Next weekend it is! :mrgreen:

Thanks again for all advices! :D
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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 26-Aug-12 18:12

Jan wrote:Anyway, looking back I know that I'm playing too fast, not paying much attention to details and hints, but I feel that the player is left here a little bit "in the mist". It's quite hard, I think, to figure out how to:
- create the "Nebula"
- cast the right spell - where was it written? Certainly not on the stone!
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The spell for the panacea is hinted in the scroll held by its guardian. If you have made a "special" friend before, he clearly gives you the formula.
The spell for the demonic stone is the "reverse" one (of the panacea spell), as hinted on the walls near the demonic stone
The spell for creating nebula (the lightning bolt), is hinted in the "library" - it is said that it was "split by the power of lightning", and that the process should be reversible, something like that.
Jan wrote:Oh, and I'm not carrying the Nebula with me now - I left it behind before casting the spell because it was too heavy. I hope I won't need it or I'll get crazy.
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No, you don't need it at that point, only when you'll get "through the key of b doors" (maybe some STR potions would help)

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by the master » 26-Aug-12 23:22

Jan wrote:I figured this out instantly after my last post (trying all
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VI BRO
XXX combinations). This led me to an area that can only be described as my worst nightmare - I don't think I encountered anything like that for a very looong time. After several instant deaths I managed to make some ground and clear a safe area - but I think I'll leave the "rest" for next weekend. I foresee hours of tough battles - a "mother of all battles".
I think I have found the bit that Jan is talking about. Just wondering if Sasha has actually completed this.

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Jan » 27-Aug-12 09:43

Alright, now I see why there's a need for the
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Eye of Time
! :shock:

I think I'm on the very edge of my own sanity. :twisted:

Doesn't it matter, Sasha, that I'd only opened two Key of B doors and then cast the spell and went the "hard way" (*)? I don't want to be trapped in this place or something.

Although the fighting is incredible, it's not impossible and I'm still enjoying it. Unfortunately, I won't have much time to go on this week. This makes some room for The Master to finish the game before me. :wink:

(*) And I'm using the word "hard" because my English dictionary doesn't have a more proper word. :roll:
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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 27-Aug-12 10:50

Jan wrote:Alright, now I see why there's a need for the
SpoilerShow
Eye of Time
! :shock:

I think I'm on the very edge of my own sanity. :twisted:

Doesn't it matter, Sasha, that I'd only opened two Key of B doors and then cast the spell and went the "hard way" (*)? I don't want to be trapped in this place or something.

Although the fighting is incredible, it's not impossible and I'm still enjoying it. Unfortunately, I won't have much time to go on this week. This makes some room for The Master to finish the game before me. :wink:

(*) And I'm using the word "hard" because my English dictionary doesn't have a more proper word. :roll:
Eheh, sorry about that, i'll rebalance this part soon.
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But as the panacea was meant to teleport you to the room of subtle happiness, its "opposite" is meant to get you to the room of brutal agony :lol: .
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I guess that the golem trap is probably the worse, sorry about that, i'll probably remove one of the two. Nice that you made a good use of the eye of time. By the way, i saw you chose "the catalyzer", I think that the best "reward" item for a solo character is the fighter's one, more a "paladin" type of weapon ; or the thief one, really deadly when wielded by a master thief and above
Don't worry about the key of B thing, just be sure to
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NOT use the portal skill you'll soon be able to get, take the teleporter back to the dungeon instead, bring your keys of B, and nebula, and let's rock !
EDIT :
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well you can still try to use the "portal", it's the "bad" ending ; it may make you smile though :)

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 27-Aug-12 11:26

Anyway, I have some free time today , i'll debug and rebalance the whole (in the actual version, the screamer edge, the room of subtle happiness, and the "spell row" should be fixed. I'll take some time to make the "nebula history" more readable, i'll rebalance the "demonic stone" level
A lot of thanks to Jan and the master for the feedbacks that helps a lot. It took me a massive amount of time to make the dungeon, (well not a long time, but I was spending all my time doing it) I probably have overlooked things that makes it less enjoyable for you. Sorry, and thanks again. Here are some hints for you, as i had a look on your savegames, i know what you may have missed.

Jan :
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The mummy traped behind the pits at the beginning : if you really let it escape, it'll help you back quite a few times, later. I saw you still had the horn of melody too : the main character hints you on this one : you should give it to the lonely wall. It's good to have a wall as an ally in a dungeon :D . For the skeleton key you once mentionned, it's sole purpose is to recruit one of two "classics" DM character, Wuuf or Hissssa, in the room of subtle happiness.
the master :
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on a savegame you sent me , I saw that you were nice with both the wall and the mummy , good job ! But it seemed that you missed an appearance of the lonely wall on the "winged key door" level, before the door. It opens you an area, just like the mummy does.

both :
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If you did all this, you should be able to open the "double master key door" in the room of subtle happiness, something nice is here. Of course, the panacea is not meant to be "traded" against the demonic stone, unless you spent too much gor coins (this is also fixed in the current version, only one access is possible, one in level 3, one in level 7) A little hint in front of the door of the demonic stone : the wall says "think twice". The "good" ending is more funny , and less difficult I think, sorry that you both had to use the demonic stone. However, keeping the master keys may help you later (you can avoid the golem trap, as its only purpose is to get a master key)
EDIT :
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I should also mention that there are two hidden training rooms (one easy, one less easy... ) in chapter 2, next to the entrance of the crypt and erichto's den. Mobs may repop about every 2 minutes. That's good to know if you realise that you have overlooked a specific class training.
Jan wrote: I also can't open the "lightning" door on the same level.
Sorry, I did not see that. It should open
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if you come back alive from the "demonic stone" level. Just a few nice things here :)

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by the master » 27-Aug-12 16:17

There is one door I can't seem to open. It is a Ra type door and is opposite the corridor that needs the Keys of B. Any hints for this one please.

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 27-Aug-12 16:31

Jan wrote: I also can't open the "lightning" door on the same level.
That's the door he was talking about :)
Sasha wrote:
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It should open if you come back alive from the "demonic stone" level. Just a few nice things here :) -- nothing really vital

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 27-Aug-12 17:49

I made some changes, everything should be okay now (well most of the things) .
-Difficulty reduced at some parts of the game:
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(less antmen in the mana draining room, less monsters in the demonic stone levels, the "golem trap" is just one golem instead of two :) )
-Texts, speeches more readable
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(the nebula history, the beginning and endings of the game, etc...)
-Bugs which have been reported are fixed ( a priori ) ; some adjustments have been made to some custom items.
-Added a fancy music to the first level of the dungeon, so the player feels happy nevertheless :D.

The download link is updated. It's officially 1.0 now ! :)

To Beowuuf : I just saw that you updated the alt link with the previous version. I'm really sorry , this time, hopefully, I won't update it every two days. Thank you a lot, you can upload this version safely , whenever you got the time to do so !

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by beowuuf » 27-Aug-12 18:00

Lol, so noted!

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 27-Aug-12 18:07

:D I still have a tiny hope that you do not hate me yet !
Thanks again !

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by beowuuf » 27-Aug-12 18:09

Not a problem, these things happen! Uploading now, will update the link when it's completed the transfer

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by the master » 27-Aug-12 23:10

I am now fighting the
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evillord
so I would think I am nearing the end - or am I?

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 27-Aug-12 23:17

the master wrote:I am now fighting the
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evillord
so I would think I am nearing the end - or am I?
SpoilerShow
Well, if you're fighting him, with debian and nebula, it should be a piece of screamer for you. Well done !

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Jan » 28-Aug-12 08:58

Sorry, I didn't have time to reply yesterday, so I'm coming - as I see it - a little bit late:

1. IMHO the fights are very nicely balanced, even in the "mana draining room" and in the "worst nightmare" part - it's hard, very hard, but still doable. In many cases, it's - to quote the Duke of Wellington after tha battle of Waterloo - "a damn close run thing", but still doable. I wouldn't change anything here. Even the place where you're "sandwiched" between the
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Stone Golems
is doable - difficult, but doable even with one character only (*berzerk* *berzerk* *MON VI* * berzerk* *MON VI* *berzerk*). So, as I said, I wouldn't change the fight's difficulty - I think it's very nicely balanced. Or, maybe, I'd make the Screamers less hard to kill in the lower levels, because it's not hard but a little bit annoying to fight them, but that's all. And there's still the Rives bug (I think) - or did you fix it too? But that's all.

2.
Sasha wrote:I think that the best "reward" item for a solo character is the fighter's one, more a "paladin" type of weapon ; or the thief one, really deadly when wielded by a master thief and above
I don't think so. If I recall it correctly (I might be wrong), the fighter's weapon is extremely heavy (something like 10 kgs) so there's absolutely no way the starting character could carry it and all the other things. And the thief thing - I don't remember but I wasn't impressed, was it some sort of a knife? Certainly it's not better or more versatile than the Dragon Fang or other super-dooper sword, is it? There was also one other item that was very nice but IIRC it had to be held in left hand which is unfortunate with one character because in your left hand you want to carry a flask.

Next weekend I intend to finish the game both ways - the "good" and the "bad" way (from my previous save). :)

Oh, and nice and "atmospheric" avatar you have now, Sasha! A true rural idyll! :)
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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 28-Aug-12 10:59

Jan wrote:IMHO the fights are very nicely balanced, even in the "mana draining room" and in the "worst nightmare" part - it's hard, very hard, but still doable. In many cases, it's - to quote the Duke of Wellington after tha battle of Waterloo - "a damn close run thing", but still doable. I wouldn't change anything here.
Well somehow, I agree, but i don't want some fights to be punishing, for more "casual" players. As you have noted, the whole ambiance is meant to be rather "relaxed". My point of view is that the "lifespan" of a dungeon should not rely mainly on fights' difficulty ; you said it was your worst nightmare, and the master wondered if i actually managed to do it myself : you both are experienced players, so i thought I had to consider tweaking a few parts ! Glad you enjoyed the challenge, though :)
Jan wrote:Or, maybe, I'd make the Screamers less hard to kill in the lower levels, because it's not hard but a little bit annoying to fight them, but that's all. And there's still the Rives bug (I think) - or did you fix it too? But that's all.
Eheh, I did a playthrough yesterday, I could not agree more. Those end-game screamers benefited from the photosynthesis, as they do in my new avatar, it seems (thanks for the compliment by the way :lol: ). Having to blast a full mana bar on a single lvl 10+ screamer was noooot so fun ! The thing is, screamers have actually high base health points, automatically adjusted with the dungeon depth (concretely). Anyway, screamers probably aren't meant to be found in end-game levels, that's how you get a screamer with more HP than a giant scorpion :shock: . That's something I have overlooked , as I can obviously set their HP manually (well in the "eye of time" room, it was intended, to have innoffensive "tanky" monsters, due to the floor damagers, but that's all). Well , they still provide food (which is not a real problem, though, as you may have noticed)!
For the rives, they are meant to be relatively weak monsters but 3hp seems low indeed (or you were well protected ?) In the code, they are meant to have the exact same stats as traditional ghosts. I may replace rives with ghost if they are indeed buggy.
Jan wrote:I don't think so. If I recall it correctly (I might be wrong), the fighter's weapon is extremely heavy (something like 10 kgs) so there's absolutely no way the starting character could carry it and all the other things. And the thief thing - I don't remember but I wasn't impressed, was it some sort of a knife? Certainly it's not better or more versatile than the Dragon Fang or other super-dooper sword, is it? There was also one other item that was very nice but IIRC it had to be held in left hand which is unfortunate with one character because in your left hand you want to carry a flask.
The sword may be heavy, but gives a really nice STR boost when held in right hand. It has a nice combination of attacks methods for soloing, IMO . The dagger's nice side is that
SpoilerShow
it penetrates through armors like it would do in melted butter
, which is nice for some end-game fights. It also has another nice feature :) .

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by the master » 28-Aug-12 11:01

Finished. But Sasha could I have my 200 gold pieces now please. Great dungeon, look forward to the next one.

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by the master » 28-Aug-12 11:47

Thought it was a very good game, although some of the puzzles especially in the lower levels wouldn't have made sense had I not asked Sasha for help. I think in future dungeons Sasha should look at making things more logical i.e the altar for the forging Nebula could have been made something special rather than looking like all the rest. The game player would then have known that there was something special about it. Maybe leave clues earlier in the game of what is to happen in the lower levels etc. The top levels were really good, I think it was when it came down to the Den and Crypt levels that it started to get a bit confusing and lost some of its natural playability. Once I had got through Nebula and defeated the Dragon on that level did I start to enjoy it again. Overall though a very good game which I am sure lots of people will enjoy. I just hope that your next game will come along pretty soon and I look forward to playing it as much as I did this one. I hope though that you have learned from some of your mistakes on this one, especially the slowing down of the game on the Den level, although in saying that I could never come close to designing a dungeon so you have my well earned respect.

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Jan » 28-Aug-12 12:22

Congratulations, Master! *envy*

Although I haven't finished it yet, I tend to agree with your assessment - excellent upper levels, a bit unclear lower ones when a player (even if he/she reads all the text) doesn't know what exactly is he/she supposed to do. Well balanced, I would say. A lot of fun / enjoyment. I'll write more when I manage to finish it.
Sasha wrote:or you were well protected ?
Nope.

Sorry, I couldn't resist :wink: :
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(isn't this a question of a young girl outside the dancing room on Friday night?)
I'll take my coat... :wink:
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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 28-Aug-12 13:25

the master wrote:Finished. But Sasha could I have my 200 gold pieces now please.
Congratulations ! :D You deserved the gold coins well .
the master wrote:Thought it was a very good game, although some of the puzzles especially in the lower levels wouldn't have made sense had I not asked Sasha for help. I think in future dungeons Sasha should look at making things more logical i.e the altar for the forging Nebula could have been made something special rather than looking like all the rest. The game player would then have known that there was something special about it. Maybe leave clues earlier in the game of what is to happen in the lower levels etc. The top levels were really good, I think it was when it came down to the Den and Crypt levels that it started to get a bit confusing and lost some of its natural playability. Once I had got through Nebula and defeated the Dragon on that level did I start to enjoy it again.
Thanks a lot for your feedback and advises. Indeed, I realise that players can't read my mind, and the nebula/panacea related things were a little obscure, although key pieces of the "plot" . At first, I didn't mean to make any custom/different thing from the original DM , but with DSB , how could I resist ? (although I haven't used the quarter of the possibilities that DSB offers) I may have spent too much time on "fancy" things, neglecting some key points. The nasty bugs you encountered with the early versions at mid-game added to the confusion, I guess.
the master wrote: Overall though a very good game which I am sure lots of people will enjoy. I just hope that your next game will come along pretty soon and I look forward to playing it as much as I did this one. I hope though that you have learned from some of your mistakes on this one, especially the slowing down of the game on the Den level, although in saying that I could never come close to designing a dungeon so you have my well earned respect.
Thanks a lot, again. I, for sure, have learnt a lot, notably due to you and Jan's feedbacks, although you'd have to credit Sophia for 99% of the final result (the 1% left to me being 0.5% bugs, and 0.5% dungeon designing), given the daily help she provided (really, Lua was even more obscure to me than the way of forging nebula :p), and, obviously, for making DSB/ESB a great engine/dungeon crafting tool.
I'm afraid that I will not have as much free time than I had for making Unintended Heroism from now, but the experience and your kind comments make me really eager to craft another one. Maybe "spreading" the work over time would allow more hindsight, which would benefit to the final result, though.
Jan wrote: Sorry, I couldn't resist :wink: : (isn't this a question of a young girl outside the dancing room on Friday night?) I'll take my coat... :wink:
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Damn it, I though you had found the immaterial condom in the public toilets (don't start over a game to look for it, or I'll have to actually code one !). This must be a bug, so :lol: !
EDIT: the master, did you try the alternate ending ?
Last edited by Sasha on 28-Aug-12 13:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by the master » 28-Aug-12 13:33

Sasha if you need someone to play test your next dungeon (hint) as you go through the levels then please PM me and I would be delighted to help as I now have plenty of time on my hands.

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 28-Aug-12 13:42

Thanks a lot for the offer ! That was something I was badly missing for this dungeon, but, being "new" on these forums, I thought that asking so would have been inappropriate. I'll PM you for sure when I start the next dungeon :) .

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Jan » 28-Aug-12 15:57

Alright, I couldn't resist, continued and saw the "bad" ending (I think). Very
SpoilerShow
Monkey-Island
-like (i.e. very good - made me really laugh and reminded me the scene in the
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Governor Marley’s Mansion in MK1 where you are behind the wall and only see the automatic commands
:mrgreen: )!

Now I suppose I should proceed to the levels above for the "good" ending + continue from my earlier save on the "wholly good way". :wink:

One question. What do I have to show to the Eye to open the Guard Barracks (I guess there's nothing important there)?
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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 28-Aug-12 16:09

Jan wrote: One question. What do I have to show to the Eye to open the Guard Barracks (I guess there's nothing important there)?
You just have to
SpoilerShow
dress like a "guard" (well actually, just carrying each items will do it ...) . If you mean the "guard captain quarters", you can open it by either carrying the guard captain's weapon ( executionner), or showing the "wizard pass", that you get on the hidden wizard. Nothing important indeed, just a nice bow-arrows.
Glad you enjoyed the bad ending (and
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yeah, I thought that LeChuck's theme was appropriate :D
) !

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Jan » 28-Aug-12 16:17

Sasha wrote:dress like a "guard" (well actually, just carrying each items will do it ...)
Ummm.... I don't think I understand. I mean the Eye at the "Guards Barracks" a few squares from the alcove (with the Master Key I think) where I was "sandwiched" by the Two Stone Golems. Could you be more specific, please?
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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 28-Aug-12 16:25

Jan wrote:
Sasha wrote:dress like a "guard" (well actually, just carrying each items will do it ...)
Ummm.... I don't think I understand. I mean the Eye at the "Guards Barracks" a few squares from the alcove (with the Master Key I think) where I was "sandwiched" by the Two Stone Golems. Could you be more specific, please?
SpoilerShow
Just bring a deth knight full equipement. But to get to the "bad ending", you have to get 2 gems (no matter which ones), so I assumed you already figured this out, as the guard captain inside holds one gem. You had a spare gem ?
EDIT :
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Oh that must be the gem on level 4 (the four keys pillar) . Could have used it to get legs/torsoplate lyte on the same level, in a fake wall next to the key you get by solving the gold number puzzle.
Last edited by Sasha on 28-Aug-12 16:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Jan » 28-Aug-12 16:29

Sasha wrote:You had a spare gem ?
Yes - apparently. I certainly wasn't inside. I think I carried a blue gem from the upper parts of the dungeon, then (I think) I found a green one somewhere here (from the Vexirk?) and that allowed me to open the door to the Demon with another gem and that to Venus. Interesting, LOL. I wish I could remember the details and what I did a few minutes ago. :wink:

EDIT: Alright, seems like I've missed the best part of the worst nightmare. :mrgreen:
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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Jan » 28-Aug-12 16:40

Sasha wrote:Oh that must be the gem on level 4 (the four keys pillar) . Could have used it to get legs/torsoplate lyte on the same level, in a fake wall next to the key you get by solving the gold number puzzle.
I certainly remember missing one gem hole on the upper levels, but I don't think it was the one at the pillar - I think it was even earlier (I think I missed that one on a crossroad where you had pressure pads on both left and right). Never mind now. I can't remember things. :roll:

Oh, and all these pieces of super armour, dark, lyte, dragon, anything, are - IMHO - useless because they're so heavy. Perhaps I could use them if I had more characters to carry stuff but with one only - no way. I stick to the old good leather. :wink:
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Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Sasha » 28-Aug-12 16:55

True ! When soloing, it may be hard to wear heavy armor, especially because of chests.

Though :
SpoilerShow
remember the gentle dragon of the first levels ? It's quite early to be able to kill it "like a man", but luring him into the oh ven clouds works nice ! you can trigger the oh ven launcher anytime you want, and dragons do not really like poison, it seems. Anyway : he holds some Powertowers . And again, the "fighter" sword gives a huge strenght boost that may help !

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Joined: 23-Sep-08 14:55
Location: Scumm Bar, Czech Republic

Re: [DSB] Unintended Heroism

Post by Jan » 30-Aug-12 15:31

Because I've progressed on my "good" way a little bit further, there's a small note (I think Master mentioned it too):

Making new things looking exactly like the old things is generally not the very best idea - and it doesn't apply only to the Forge but also to the Wizard Pass - it took me some time to figure it out even though you'd actually hinted at it (plus the
SpoilerShow
Rabbit Foot
is very badly visible when on the floor in DSB and because I forgot where I'd killled the
SpoilerShow
Wizard
I must have been running there in circles for ages). Plus, you could put there some hints at the "eyes" (and generally other areas where you're supposed to do something unusual) because people usually don't carry everything they found in the dungeon. This is not Monkey Island where things don't weigh anything / your pockets are of unlimited size. :wink: Perhaps some hints in forms of poems or riddles or so would be nice.
Finally playing and immensely enjoying the awesome Thimbleweed Park-a-reno!

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