[Custom dungeon] Black Gate [RTC] [Zed5Duke]

[Zed5Duke]

Version: 1.0 for RTC V0.49
Platform: RTC
Author: Zed5Duke
Date published: 2009, October 2
Date last updated: 2009, October 2

Story:
You lost everything playing dices in tavern. Then when lay drunken under table you hear rumors about mysterious black gate. Story say its deep labyrinth full of ancient treasures. You follow party of adventurers and few days later found this place deep in Jorgshill forest. Vision of fortune was so big that you decided to enter.



Notes:
Size: 10 levels, each level is small but contain some puzzles, including game ending which is mysterious
Graphic: DM1
Party: 1 person

Download:
Download this dungeon from this Shared OneDrive (in the 'Custom Dungeons' folder)

[Broken_Paladin]

Look's interesting, I'll give it a try

[Jan]

DEAD-END WARNING!

Oh no, I think I found the first dead-end!

Close to the beginning, there is a "treasure-teleporter". In front of the teleporter, there is a pad. If you put something on that pad, it will open a pit nearby that won't enable you to return back (it's a part of a more complicated puzzle). That pit won't close if you remove the object from the pad or if you put another thing on the pad.

I'm trapped. And I haven't made any save before that. I know it's a part of a larger puzzle, and both this puzzle and a note on the wall tell you not to put anything on the pad, but I just wanted to try it - and it's a dead-end! Oh no! This shouldn't happen! Now I have to start a new game from the scratch! I don't think I want to!

But it's not a bad dungeon otherwise. Typical Zed's product - a lot of puzzles and challenging fights from the very beginning! (well, the fights may be too challenging for me)

[Duckman]

Zed5duke you are not a bad dungeon producer at all -dragon tomb demo proves it to even the most negative players. But I do agree with Ian, you should be far more careful with dead-end situations. And if you have not already noticed, there are quite a bunch of them at dark abyss too. (the pitfall will kill the champions if you use ones from mirrors, but not if you create a new adventure, leaving them trapped). I am going to try but I hope that this is different from DA in few ascepts, like that it does not have the same annoying "HAD" and such texts everywhere -same sort of puzzle in all place gets a bit annoying!

[Jan]

like that it does not have the same annoying "HAD" and such texts everywhere -same sort of puzzle in all place gets a bit annoying!

You'll see!

EDIT: I wouldn't call it "annoying", but I agree with you that it is a bit monotonous. But the dead-ends worry me.

[Jan]

Sorry for double-posting.

@Zed: There are some graphic glitches on level 3 (or 4?) - the wooden doors look strange, I think you put the doors first and only then the door-frames.

[Jan]

Hmmm... is there anyone else playing this dungeon? I think I found another dead-end and I'm getting tired of it.

@Zed: I'm on level 5 or 6 - I've climbed two pits for a treasure - there's a chest with three coins (two gold and one copper). Now there's an iron gate with a keyhole, but I don't have any keys and I can't go back! What shall I do?

Grrr.... I have to reload the game and look for the key...

[beowuuf]

I can't get the file from rapidshare - ironically(?), I was trying to get the file not only to play it, but also to put it up on the DM.com space just incase people couldn't get the file from rapidshare.

[Gambit37]

I downloaded it, but I don't think there's any point posting it elsewhere with the game-play stopping dead-ends.

Zed, would you consider fixing the dead-end problems and releasing a new version?

[beowuuf]

There are a number of save slots, just need to stagger saves I guess

Can you sent it to my beowuuf at yahoo dot com account?

[Gambit37]

No need, I uploaded it here:

http://dmweb.free.fr/Stuff/files/dungeon/bgate.zip

[Zed5Duke]

There is no such thing like dead end problem, in this dungeon i tested it many times and dont see reason to fix anything.

note on the wall tell you not to put anything on the pad, but I just wanted to try it

in this case you was warned about trap, but you triger it anyway and its not my problem when you play without savegame

there's a chest with three coins (two gold and one copper). Now there's an iron gate with a keyhole, but I don't have any keys and I can't go back!

am not sure how you could miss that key, it was just before pit, i think you play too fast

BIT NAN DET was first warning, and it was true because its impossible finish game without thinking

[Duckman]

Zed5duke looks really like we will not be getting delight from the times of dark abyss. But still make something kill the champions when at dead-end or at least put a no-save tiles at dead-ends, it is incredibly annoying to start the whole dungeon all over again. Yeresday i did try to download you'r dungeon, something went wrong. Well, I'll try the gambit's link...

Edit: it worked! thanks gambit! and Ian, triple post! well you're not the only one, about 1/5 of my posts are probaly from double or triple posts.

[Jan]

There is no such thing like dead end problem, in this dungeon i tested it many times and dont see reason to fix anything.

I disagree. I think you need someone else to test it before you release it for the public. But it's not your fault - simply, a game designer can't find all the dead-ends in his game, because he knows the solutions and he can't imagine that someone doesn't know them too.

its not my problem when you play without savegame

In that case, I had a savegame, but I saved it only after putting a rock on the pad without realising that it opened a pit that cannot be closed. My fault, I admit. But I'm surprised by your sentence "its not my problem".

am not sure how you could miss that key

Yeah, I'm an idiot, the solution was obvious. However, this is a dead-end. Imagine this: you come into a room and you can do two things - fall into a pit or examine an alcove. I agree that examining the alcove is more logical first step, but you cannot deny that there exist idiots like me who prefer jumping into the first pit they see without doing anything else before. A game designer should thing about it. A beta-testing would reveal it. I think.

But I don't want to sound too critical. I have to thank you for the dungeon, Zed!

[Trantor]

in this case you was warned about trap, but you triger it anyway and its not my problem when you play without savegame

...

am not sure how you could miss that key, it was just before pit, i think you play too fast

BIT NAN DET was first warning, and it was true because its impossible finish game without thinking

Just hope I will never review your dungeon.

Honestly, when the player gets stuck in a dungeon just because he either misses something or tries something for fun, you cannot say "duh, no wonder you get trapped, you didn't think about it, that's not MY fault". Yes, it IS your fault! People are supposed to have fun playing a game, and when they get stuck in a dead-end and have to restart because they "played too fast" they will very likely lose all interest in playing the game, and that hurts you, the designer. It gives you a bad reputation and makes sure nobody will appreciate your work and effort. I can safely say that I will not play any of your dungeons as long as your philosophy is "if the player runs in a dead-end, it's his fault for playing badly".

[beowuuf]

Close to the beginning, there is a "treasure-teleporter". In front of the teleporter, there is a pad. If you put something on that pad, it will open a pit nearby that won't enable you to return back (it's a part of a more complicated puzzle). That pit won't close if you remove the object from the pad or if you put another thing on the pad.

'Foul (will die?) illusion' is a warning? I thought it was a clue to the first pit. I thought the pad was a trap. No wonder I'm stuck already! Burned turns levelling up to kill the vexirk behind the grate with poison, no release.

Oh well, I'll carry on.

Edit: Oh, I see, multi-functioning wall item. So the pad is a trap

[Jan]

OK, FINISHED!

Finished in 1 hour 47 minutes 49 seconds. My maximum stamina at the end was 37 only and I had to make 72 stamina potions during the game.

I want to thank you, Zed, for that dungeon - even with the dead-ends and other errors and "weak places", it entertained me and I'm glad you made it. I'll write a review later, but only if you want - it might include a load of criticism. Maybe I'll re-play the dungeon once more, because I don't remember much of it. Maybe the review would be too critical now, but I don't want to do that. I need some tim to think about it.

EDIT: @BW and "the warning": OK, you're probably right. I don't remember exactly, there's so much text on the walls and so much "traps" and "do-not-press-this-switch" switches that it's all mixed and upside down in my head.

[Gambit37]

@Zed5Duke:

Good dungeon design is about providing a challenge to the player through careful planning, and that INCLUDES anticipating silly things that the player might do. There are NO impossible situations in DM or CSB, why do you think they are so successful?

If you want to make great dungeons, I think you need to change your attitude a little. Not all players will play the way you expect and it most certainly is your problem (and not theirs) if you locked them in somewhere and didn't provide a way out. You might argue that impossible traps are REALISTIC and I'd agree, but they aren't FUN.

[beowuuf]

AJust to back up Jan, the pit in question doesn't have a hint you need the key. The key has a pressure pad, so it looks like a trap, and indeed triggers a trap. Given that the 'wrong treasure' area previously didn't kill you in the room, I think it could be safe to say that anyone could restart thinking this was a trap and the key a red herring. Also, your dungeon encourages saving at each point incase of death traps. Given the need for the key is only found two pits down, you can also forgive someone for having resaved over their previous 'by the key' save.

Anyway, still a good dungeon so far, just I think you need to understand that these niggles tend to detract from your otherwise good dungeons, not enhance the experience.

[Duckman]

The example of the pit with damager in bottom opened by item on pad, I can understand you wanted to kill ones who were stupid enough to throw an item on pad behind. But you should have made it close few ticks later or made it close if the item is removed and replaced the damager on bottom with teleporter (so you cannot get stuck if you throw item and dogde before pit opens). If you save to dead-end situation at some dungeon, It's always the maker's fault, unless the player is stupid or careless enough to save when cornered by incoming fireball, lightning or beast or when completely out of food/water.

[Broken_Paladin]

Zed you might be taking everything a little too critical, everyone is giving constructive critism. Every player has diffrent styles of play and diffrent thought processes. Some like to be cautious and examine every little nook and cranny, some like to run into a room weapons flying screaming like a banshee and smash everything. My friend for example doesn't even bother to pick up treasure and keeps going until he see he needs a key, then he retraces his tracks till he finds the item he needs. I on the other hand love to sit and train @ the dungeon entrance then scrounge for food.

From a developer stand point creating traps that are an instant kill are acceptable in a dungeon, however when a glitch or a circumstance arises that causes a dead end that wasn't mean to kill the player or be there, then it really should be patched. In example missing a key should cause the player to have to go back and look for it for missing it, not have them to recreate a new character.

[Zed5Duke]

Am begining to feel that dead-ends are very good. Because most of players just try everything on everything and they do it fast. Even if dont solve puzzle, you will be able to finish game, because when some dumb idea not work, you will return and try another until make progress. But with dead ends such mathod will not work: when you dont understand what to do then will chose wrong way and this will kill player totally, one mistake and need start again.

In this game was no dead ends, just someone relase trap and play without savegame, or was too blind to see key. But am think about make dungeon full of real traps, it will be called "Dead End" of course.

[Jan]

I don't think I would like to play such a dungeon. Zed, I'm afraid. And I don't think the others will be more happy about it.

I can only repeat Gambit's words (see above) - a dungeon full of dead-ends and death-traps and such things would be more realistic, of course, but it would be less fun. And this is why we play DM-based dungeons, this is why we play computer games in general (or at least me) - for fun! If you make a dungeon full of dead-ends, full of situations "d'oh! I've got no key for this lock, it must be somewhere above, but I'm trapped here! D'oh! I must start once again!", a potential player would have to make lots of savegames and restart over and over, and he or she will gradually lose kind of "lust", I mean desire to go on. Nobody would be happy about such a dungeon, I think.

My last words about the Black Gate dead-ends: As I said, I found two. OK, the first one, with the "treasure-teleporter", is not a typical dead-end - you're warned about a trap, and we may argue about it, that only idiots (like me) "want to try what if..." - and they are punished. OK. Maybe. But the second dead-end (with the chest containing coins) is a typical and clear dead-end, there's no argument about it. As far as I remember, there is no warning, and no clue about what to do first (key or pit).

But, as Broken Paladin said above, this is a constructive criticism - I have to thank you once again for your dungeon. My opinion is that Dark Abyss was better, but still I'm glad you make your dungeons and give them to us! Carry on!

[linflas]

@Zed : my first release of Sukumvit had lots of dead-ends and so i got exactly the same critics from the forumers. So i can understand your point of view : "One True Paths" are great for a longer game life. I also consider savegames can be a part of the strategy. Most videogames have one (most of the time automatic) overwritten savegame but there are always a couple of previous saves that people mostly never use. As it is not automatic in RTC, I remember warning people in my info file to save often and keep several savegames. But they just won't do it
You're the only one who actually has released dungeons for the last months so if you are happy to release a "Dead-end" dungeon, come on ! i'm with you !

[beowuuf]

The thing to beware of is that if you don't respect the player's time, and don't design well, then players will be very resentful and also not respect your time.

The shift away from dead ends being enjoyable is partially that everyone is growing up, and has less free time so needs to have somethign to show for it in terms of fun or progress. Note for example Jan says everywhere exactly how little free time he has. I'm surprised how well he's taking it!

I hope you realise dead ends mean people wandering around, not dead, with no way to correct the matter but no clue if there is a puzzle to solve or not. The 'you killed me' endings are ok, as long as they don't come from nowhere. You have to ensure that it was entirely the player's fault, and you have designed well, and they know they've messed up. Final Fantasy books TOLD you you were wrong and killed you. You didn't keep reading the book for the rest of the night in an unplayable state.

Also, everyone makes a mistake. I got distracted by something real life, and hadn't realised I had not moved the bones that had the winged key was under. I could have been stuck in the most annoying dead end ever, having fought the tough fight. I could have been locked in the ending area, wondering what subtle mechanicm I was missing, and wasted a further hour before it slowly dawning on me that maybe, despite how I check everywhere and everything, I had missed something. And in that case, I would have had to restart not knowing where the key would be. Except I never would have.

I could have had the most 'screw you' dead end. But I did not, I had a war grapple. That was great, it allowed me to correct my mistake, and my further investment of time meant the game was won. And so, in retrospect, I can still look abck on your game and think it was good, and love everything I've seen, and appreciate the ambiguous ending. I liked the ending, if I understood the correction correctly (I realised at the end I didn't right down the translation of 'ULL'.

However, I already stated how the mummy trap key bit, with the unescapeable pit, can be understandably a dead end a player would save in. The key looks like a trap, it springs a nasty trap, and nothing punishes you for going down the one pit, so you would then be stupid not to save to prepare to go down the next pit.

Also, you have one or two really good puzzles requiring good exploration that can be missed if it's assumed the player is dead ended. The coin near the start is ok, you can still explore the thestart of the dungeon, but the hidden exit puzzle (which I really liked) could be put down to dead ending.

Anyway, if you do do a dead end dungeon, I agree with linflas there is nothing inherently wrong with it. I just hope you warn people, and I just hope you get someone to play test it so that all warnings are fair and exploration is not penalised.


Anyway, very enjoyable dungeon overall! I think the #where is the exit' puzzle Was the most fun later on (Especially since I found it, and then the button toopen it), and I thought the feel of the dungeon was well managed. The later scrolls show the normal humour we expect from your dungeons, and I liked how the stairs turned to pits to give an upped sense of jeopardy and progress. It felt scary, like it has gotten worse but I must be closer to the end! And the war grapple was good!

[Jan]

Note for example Jan says everywhere exactly how little free time he has. I'm surprised how well he's taking it!

But I would have a lot of free time... if I didn't have to fight with your insults on two forums simultaneously! I can't believe where you find time for all those your activities, Wuufie!

But the truth is that Zed's dungeon's release was timed extremely well - on Friday afternoon, so you have the whole weekend to play it!

[Trantor]

I agree with everything Beo said. You put it much better than I ever could. Zed, if you want to release a dead-end dungeon, sure, go ahead - but please warn everyone before. I would certainly not play it.

[RAF68]

me I have play have dungeon a lot and I owes reconnettre that best dungeon for me is those of zed5duke I can say it for me it is a big creator I admire all his dungeons and me waits with impatience for the following to continue zed5duke for our biggest pleasures and thank you for all!!!

moi j'ai jouer a beaucoup de dungeon et je doit reconnettre que les meuilleurs dungeon pour moi sont ceux de zed5duke je peux le dire pour moi c'est un grand créateur j'admire tous ses dungeons et j'attend avec impatience les suivants continuer zed5duke pour notre plus grand plaisirs et merci pour tous !!!

[Zyx]

I didn't play your dungeon yet Zed5duke so I can't comment about the specific dead-end issues. I did try myself to design a dungeon with this philosophy (Deathtrap dungeon, based on a FF book). I mostly obtained the same critics.

IMHO, the environment in DM is too poor to subtly and realistically warn (and retrospectively justify) about certain death or dead ends. The hints cannot be too ambiguous when one of the choice leads to complete failure.
Two strategies are possible when designing a riddle:
- Put good, explicit hints about the options AND their consequences and then you may be harsh if the player got it wrong.
- Keep vague or silent, but then allow the player to make mistakes.

Personally I prefer to make riddles where if wrong, you suffer instead of dying

[Ameena]

Or just put up a big "You will die!" sign, like in The Neverhood .