[RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

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Gambit37
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Gambit37 »

The offset click area is not a feature, it's a bug:
http://dungeon-master.com/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=28883
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Sophia »

Chaos-Shaman wrote:how on our right side of monsters is the ACTION side and the left side is for throwing and placing items on floor
While I do definitely acknowledge using the click zones that way is a rather clever hack, I also contend that such an approach is completely unintuitive and rather fiddly.
Spoiler
Seriously Unserious wrote:The logic behind this is you are not using an item, you are starting a conversation, with the guards in the barracks, whereas with the guards on duty, you are using an item they need to see in order to let you through.
It would be just as logical (and just as inconsistent) to say that the "conversation" is an action and should be in the actions your character can do-- you can yell at them by clicking war cry, after all, so why not be able to talk to them, there, too?-- and meanwhile you should be able to present the item to them by clicking on them with it just like you put a key in a lock or put an item in an altar.

Ideally, you should probably add a few extra mechanics and allow both, since either way you're going to have players who try the "wrong" way and get confused (and get killed, apparently!) when it doesn't work. :mrgreen:
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Sophia wrote:
Chaos-Shaman wrote:how on our right side of monsters is the ACTION side and the left side is for throwing and placing items on floor
While I do definitely acknowledge using the click zones that way is a rather clever hack, I also contend that such an approach is completely unintuitive and rather fiddly.
Spoiler
Seriously Unserious wrote:The logic behind this is you are not using an item, you are starting a conversation, with the guards in the barracks, whereas with the guards on duty, you are using an item they need to see in order to let you through.
It would be just as logical (and just as inconsistent) to say that the "conversation" is an action and should be in the actions your character can do-- you can yell at them by clicking war cry, after all, so why not be able to talk to them, there, too?-- and meanwhile you should be able to present the item to them by clicking on them with it just like you put a key in a lock or put an item in an altar.

Ideally, you should probably add a few extra mechanics and allow both, since either way you're going to have players who try the "wrong" way and get confused (and get killed, apparently!) when it doesn't work. :mrgreen:
Spoiler
I can certainly update the mechanics for that to make them more diverse.
Like I said, this is still early in development, but I felt it was important to get some player feedback early in development so problems can be fixed before they get too big. The fewer things I have included, the fewer things I have to fix if improvements are needed. :wink:

I am also interested in what people think of the overall storyline so far, and the idea of having interactive elements and introducing what you're supposed to be doing by having NPC characters in the game explain it to you.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Sophia »

Finished the demo! :mrgreen:
Spoiler
Having to show my papers to every guard along the way becomes a bit tedious. What's worse, the mechanics seem to break down if you have to do it repeatedly: guards demand to see them and then let you go a moment later, and if you do show them, it says there's nobody there you need to show them to.
Spoiler
Ok, so to give the guard the heal potion you do have to click on him. This is inconsistent again, but I won't belabor this point.
Spoiler
"Sence"
Spoiler
"Ratiates"
Spoiler
"Faster then we could kill them"
Spoiler
"Congradulations"
Seriously Unserious wrote:I am also interested in what people think of the overall storyline so far, and the idea of having interactive elements and introducing what you're supposed to be doing by having NPC characters in the game explain it to you.
Personally, I'm not wild about. I'll give you that it is kind of interesting, and a divergence from the usual style of gameplay, but I'm not sure if it really "feels right." Having large amounts of dialogue popping up at the bottom of the screen without any way to pause it (or advance it when I'm done) felt a little clunky, for example. Doing it on plot screens was better, but then again, that breaks away from the game, and the plot screens are really ugly, to be totally blunt about it. (I can understand not wanting to spend too much time on them since you have to make each one up yourself by hand, though.)
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

it seemed easy to play, it flowed nicely, SU used the mechanics as provided, i saw no hacking, it is all dungeon mechanics.

SU, you're gonna love the new ai built, i doubt there is much more i can do with it. i am sure most people will love its power.

should make sure that any vital information is info screen, and placed on a scroll for good measure.

when will Lynchegate be ready SU?
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Seriously Unserious »

It'll likely take a few months for the full dungeon to be ready. Right now I'm working on the story elements and events, so ATM it's all planning stuff, but that will make the dungeon building go much faster once I get back to the editor. Aside from that I'll need the graphics you're designing, but we can discuss the details of that via email.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by terkio »

Not for me.
I like classic DM.
Most games with verbose NPC turn me off. "When you have to shoot, shoot, don' t talk."

Outdoor rendering is confusing. I guess it needs more than walls changed to bushes for a decent outdoor navigation.

How do you know, you' ve finished the demo. I got a vi potion....
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Sophia »

terkio wrote:How do you know, you' ve finished the demo. I got a vi potion....
You know you've finished the demo because it tells you that you've finished. :mrgreen:
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by PaulH »

Spoiler
When the old member leaves the party due to the new one, you can click on the old one and get him back. With his old stats - which means if you reincarnated him, they were higher than before... repeat a few times and you get a super character!
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

I just tested and finished the demo, some comments:
Spoiler
In the crypt, I just stole all the gear from the available characters before picking up the one I wanted to keep as party member. Feels like a glitch to me.
Spoiler
The guards always talk to you like you have a whole party ("sirS", "xxxx's party"...), but you can't have more than one member right?
Spoiler
I quite appreciated some nice improvements from classic dungeons (guards following you, cadavers, dialogue screens), these give good opportunities to build a more "intelligent" game. But it feels very empty for now, too much dialogues and travelling for not enough action. And as Sophia said, it becomes boring to show the papers all along. I guess it won't be the same in the final version.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Seriously Unserious »

In the finished version there will definitely be more going on. There will be better graphics in many areas, and I will be putting your feedback to good use. I'll definitely fix the issues that people who like this sort of game are having with it. That's why I put this early demo out, so I could see what people are looking for so I can make the changes before I get too many complex mechanics implemented. ATM most of the dungeon is still pretty much a blank slate, aside from the areas used in the demo. I am planning on having the action pick up as the game progresses.

The purpose of the dialogs is to build on a story and explain in the game why you're there and doing what you're doing, and to build on what you're supposed to be doing through interactions with characters in the story. As the game progresses, those dialogues will provide important clues as to how to solve puzzles, where you need to go, and what you should be doing next. The whole idea is you have to figure out what's going on in the area, by a combination of exploring and talking to people to gather the clues to figure out what's going on, then put a stop to whatever's it is.

I am currently working on building the story and events right now, so if you have any suggestions of what you would like to see going on, now it the time to post them, while it's easy for me to play around with your ideas and find ways I can fit them into the storyline. I can certainly release a 2nd demo with some of your suggestions in it as well to see if this is more what you're all interested in. I'm working on doing something very different then others have done, so naturally some won't like it, others will find bugs that need to be ironed out, and tweaks that will improve on things. I look forward to any constructive suggestions or comments you have on how you feel I could improve on this design, or things I haven't done that you would like to see.

I'd like to thank all of you for your feedback as it will be very helpful in how I develop this game further.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Gambit37 »

Seriously Unserious wrote:
The purpose of the dialogs is to build on a story and explain in the game why you're there and doing what you're doing, and to build on what you're supposed to be doing through interactions with characters in the story.
Can I make a suggestion? Provide clear goals to the player up front, rather than trying to create mystery through player ignorance.

Having players wander around frustrated or bored because they don't know what they're supposed to be doing is one of the worst mistakes we can make as game designers.

If players have to mind read the designer's intentions in order to progress, that's generally a poor gameplay mechanic. Provide clearer goals that don't require interaction with every NPC and you'll have happier players.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by terkio »

Having players wander around frustrated or bored because they don't know what they're supposed to be doing is one of the worst mistakes we can make as game designers.

If players have to mind read the designer's intentions in order to progress, that's generally a poor gameplay mechanic. Provide clearer goals that don't require interaction with every NPC and you'll have happier players.
This is exacly what I experienced in "Knight Orc" an old ( 1987 ) Atari ST Amiga adventure game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Orc
In this, you are an Orc, you don't know what you are doing in here, meet tons of characters wandering on their own, they hate you, you get killed over and over, resurecting at the start again and again.
The perfect frustration. That was the top of the dark ages of adventure games. Please never again.

Beware. The Lynchegate compass is not the original Dungeon Master compass.
Be aware it uses the same four graphics as the original compass, but the East and West graphics are switched.
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... ss#p138440
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

In the crypt, I just stole all the gear from the available characters before picking up the one I wanted to keep as party member. Feels like a glitch to me.
yes it is, and also anything in the pouch once the entire inventory is filled will be lost, so don't hire while inventory full, ya thief :)
The guards always talk to you like you have a whole party ("sirS", "xxxx's party"...), but you can't have more than one member right?
you can, that's a tough call on how to implement it, with the NPC coming, it is possible to be left in limbo like the start, you can get rid of all 4 characters and replace them anywhere in the dungeon provided there is a mirror on the wall, only mirror can be clicked on when in limbo. this really changes the game possibilities.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

PaulH wrote:
Spoiler
When the old member leaves the party due to the new one, you can click on the old one and get him back. With his old stats - which means if you reincarnated him, they were higher than before... repeat a few times and you get a super character!
no more replacing the character, now it's either remove back into dungeon wandering, or hire into party, no more swapping out, you can dismiss 3 charcters and if the last characters dies, you're limboized, a feared condition of many with two options to get back to reality :twisted:
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

SU, I think that showing the scroll is a good idea to pass certain guards, although it does not have to be. it shows the use of the scroll, and not to lose it either to some thief, not all scrolls are alike either. I think that the dungeon may end up being too difficult for some, a problem for sure. maybe make first level childs play and then gradually get tougher, smarter. give them a hack and slash for the first level, real simple like so newcomers can reminisce and then stick em with the smart play. some people do not care for story. I DO
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by terkio »

Reached the end of the demo. :mrgreen:

Following guards got me stuck.
They are too stupid to get out of the way.
To prevent this game dead lock is not an easy programming task, some serious AI is required.

Corpses only visible when the party faces it. Unseen when steping over side ways.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Gambit37 wrote:
Seriously Unserious wrote:
The purpose of the dialogs is to build on a story and explain in the game why you're there and doing what you're doing, and to build on what you're supposed to be doing through interactions with characters in the story.
Can I make a suggestion? Provide clear goals to the player up front, rather than trying to create mystery through player ignorance.

Having players wander around frustrated or bored because they don't know what they're supposed to be doing is one of the worst mistakes we can make as game designers.

If players have to mind read the designer's intentions in order to progress, that's generally a poor gameplay mechanic. Provide clearer goals that don't require interaction with every NPC and you'll have happier players.
Well, I think the way it's done in the demo is nice. The goals looked clear enough as far as you take the time for reading the whole dialogs (e.g. the mission "bring me artifacts" from sister Alisia). I could imagine myself writing my own "journal" with the mission goal, where it takes place, where to go get the reward, etc. That's how I understood the game will be, maybe it won't, but I would appreciate that. Such a game would need a good balancing between fights, exploration and dialogs, which is not the case of the demo, but it's only a demo...
Of course, an automatic interactive journal would be perfect (less "old school" but clearer), but I can't remember of having seen such feature in a RTC mod... Maybe a short sentence resuming the quest dialog would be a good solution as well, and easy to add, something like "Alisia asked me for mysterical artifacts" written as a classic DM dialog, in a special-quest color? This way, the player wouldn't miss a quest. And you SU could choose essential points clearly indicated this way and simple clues that attentive players could discover in a whole dialog.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

IGOR, if SU permits, i'd like to show you the npc demo, SUs new dungeon will not resemble this example
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Go ahead, it's your work anyways.

As for the forest sections, I agree it needs more work, much of the early part of the game is gonna be wandering around in them, as you no doubt already have guessed. I am already planning on using better graphics for the outdoor areas, and have discussed options with Chaos-Shaman. The DM2 wallsets are just being used as placeholders until the new outdoor sets are ready. I can definitely add more monsters into the early part of the game. In fact, I plan to, I just wanted to get this out there and get some feedback before I go too far and making any major changes becomes a major chore.

Other then the demo section, the rest of the game is currently descriptive write-ups in a word processor document with events and locations, so I can easily change them at this point. I'll probably be working this way for a while yet, I really want to get this game fully mapped out, in terms of events and characters before I start back in on the editor. This means that implementing your suggestions will be quite a bit easier at this stage. I'll post when I'm finished the prep work and am back into RTCEditor work as changes will be more challenging once their wired into the txt file, as experienced RTC developers already know. ;)

In the meanwhile, I'll go over the story and events file and re-work things as needed to implement as many of your suggestions as I can.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Seriously Unserious »

terkio wrote:Reached the end of the demo. :mrgreen:

Following guards got me stuck.
They are too stupid to get out of the way.
To prevent this game dead lock is not an easy programming task, some serious AI is required.

Corpses only visible when the party faces it. Unseen when steping over side ways.
I did work in a few mechanics to reduce the risk of that happening, I can work on some more mechanics, including upgrading the AI model, which I already intend to do anyways.

I definitely need better graphics for the dead guards. Graphics aren't my specialty though, but I'll see what I can do, or if C-S can come up with something... he's been working on the graphics for Lynchgate. The dead guards, beds and character portraits are all my own artwork, and the priest was borrowed from EOB2 but much else will be the work of Chaos-Shaman.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Seriously Unserious »

One question I have for those who've completed the demo, is the end of game info screen giving you the right message as to how many guards survived? I haven't been able to test if the right screen shows up when both guards survive as I kept ending up with 1 or both dying when testing it.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Chaos-Shaman wrote:IGOR, if SU permits, i'd like to show you the npc demo, SUs new dungeon will not resemble this example
As you wish... It was just a suggestion so you could balance between clear goals as asked by Gambit and non-essential clues or really secondary quests to find in the dialogs. If the game events progression system is totally different from what I imagined, it may be ok as well, just don't lose the player with a too mysterious progression.
Of course, you can send whatever you want to me (before the end of this week actually) if you'd like further suggestions.

SU: I lost 2 guards and it said I was not able to bring any guard back alive.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

Go ahead, it's your work anyways.
wrong SU, it's our work, and your baby as I said before, i am only one part of you're grand scheme!! the stories you tell are as far as i know, unmatched by anyone. you have great enthusiasm, it is what all DMs want and need. i was making sure with you about whether you would mind showing others how your next dungeon will be, coinciding with an NPC. what has been done will enhance the npc no doubt here.
your project is allowing growth SU, i am so pleased that you can't be persuaded, you've an open mind, and a very strong thinker. you say what is on your mind with a little bit of you in it rather than the usual cut\copy\paste philosophy which is prevalent in every corner of the square and straight. you're not typical dude.

do not worry about graphics SU, nobody really cares who loves DM, they know it was made with 16\32 bit maybe sprite, it's OLD.. i expect a comment from that :) ok, have had my third shot of the day, the third eye window is closing now

no comment on end game sequence, perfect it SU
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Seriously Unserious »

Igor Poulpupov wrote:
Chaos-Shaman wrote:IGOR, if SU permits, i'd like to show you the npc demo, SUs new dungeon will not resemble this example
As you wish... It was just a suggestion so you could balance between clear goals as asked by Gambit and non-essential clues or really secondary quests to find in the dialogs. If the game events progression system is totally different from what I imagined, it may be ok as well, just don't lose the player with a too mysterious progression.
Of course, you can send whatever you want to me (before the end of this week actually) if you'd like further suggestions.

SU: I lost 2 guards and it said I was not able to bring any guard back alive.
If everyone's getting guards and/or party members killed I'll probably have to do some more re-balancing of that part of the game. That's easy to do and I already know how to get that taken care of.

As for the heavy load of dialogues, what you're seeing in this demo is only a tiny part of the game, and it is quite dialogue heavy because I wanted the explanations of what you're supposed to be doing all explained in the game.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Sophia »

Does it do something special when a guard dies, or do they just poof in smoke? To the best of my knowledge I brought them all back alive. I don't remember it telling me I lost anyone, anyway.

I actually considered the fight fairly easy, because there was room to dance around and lots of junk to throw. I think the guards survived because I wasn't really sure how to command them so I went off and killed all of the skeletons myself with them out of harm's way. By the time I figured out how to command them, all the monsters were already gone.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Seriously Unserious »

ahh. Well if attacked the guards automatically start fighting so that's one way they can go into fight mode.

Anyhow, when a guard dies it becomes a "dead guard" floor item. At least the special ones used in the rescue the patrol sequence do at any rate. The ones standing around are just regular, garden variety DM2 guards.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by terkio »

Seriously Unserious wrote:One question I have for those who've completed the demo, is the end of game info screen giving you the right message as to how many guards survived? I haven't been able to test if the right screen shows up when both guards survive as I kept ending up with 1 or both dying when testing it.
Got no text telling how many guards survived.

I did the end of the demo from a save at TAM healing, many times.
The more I try to understand what goes on and why....the more I get confused.

I suggest a magic map to see what goes on around.
I sugest a large auto map to help beating the bush.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

yeah, an automap, this would be real nice, not sure how that can be done terkio. I was thinking that each level there should be a scroll or info screen or something of that nature, sorta like conflux, could be coin operated or something, then the player just has to print the screen and they can print that on paper if need be.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon:Castle Lynchegate

Post by Seriously Unserious »

I can certainly look into options for mapping. The forest is meant to be somewhat challenging to navigate, but not nigh on impossible. Of course, the twisting passages are a bit of a necessary evil to crate the illusion of distance without having to make the map so huge that it becomes impossible to target anything, with mostly grey space on the map.

I haven't been able to do any work on this lately though :( I'm way too busy with end of semester projects right now. Just about everything's due next week...
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