[RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

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THEO
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[RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

So after a several years of prolonged development I have finalized a beta of my take on Dungeon Master 2 using RTC engine. I would be greatful if someone would test this dungeon for me. It should be (hopefuly) possible to finish the game by defeating Dragoth and should contain good 20 hours of gameplay at least. Please enjoy and let me know any bugs/comments/suggestions/ideas.


LINK TO MY DRIVE:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
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terkio
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by terkio »

I died a couple of time, could do nothing...testing over.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Hmmm... Couple of my friends who have tried to play the module complained to me that the beginning is too challenging, but I also wanted to hear opinion of a seasoned dungeon master player.

I wanted the beginning to be a little bit challenging, but not to the level of being frustrating and deter the player from having pleasant game experience from the start.
Maybe giving the player one save at the very beginning of the game so that he does not have to restart every time he dies and giving the wolves considerably less hitpoints, so that they can be chased off easier, could be a reasonable compromise?
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terkio
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by terkio »

You certainly know how to deal with the wolf ( wolves ? ) at the start of the game. The player does not !
What seems challenging to you is actually quite impossible to others. I presume the entire game is tuned that way.

On top of that you cannot restart to try again. When dead one can only quit and reload the game. Indeed a save at the begining is a must. Wolves that kill you in two bites is way too tough.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

I can asure you that the beginning of the game is probably the hardest. There will be couple tough boss fights, but you will see them coming and if you prepare for them accordingly, your chances of success will increase dramaticaly. Most of the time the game should play like DM2 with you venturing from a safe place, lilke village into the wilderness and then coming back to replenish your resources. Once you reach skullkeep the game will be more like a classic dungeon in style of DM1.
However you are right that at the start of the game, there is not really much one can do. Thus said I am uploading new version with save at the beginning health of the wolves reduced from 85 to 35 and putting them further apart. Please give it a new try. If it still proves to be too frustrating, I will just move the starting point into the safeplace, creating more standard start of the game, where player can gear up and pick some additional characters before heading to the wilderness.

EDIT: New version uploaded. You still have to escape from the woods to find Eli's hideout first, but it should be slightly easier and without a need to restart the game entirely. If you still want to engage the wolves do this from distance by throwing rocks or sticks at them, or kiting them. You can also find some primitive weapons and clothes in the woods, which should give you some advantage.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Well, now there is another version with considerably more friendly beginning. Hopefuly someone will find this worthwhile and not too off-putting.
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PaulH
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by PaulH »

Just seen this! Will give it a go tonight.
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PaulH
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by PaulH »

The save game restrictions are too harsh - you need to get a good set up from the start where people don't have to restart every time.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by PaulH »

I'll be happy to test if you remove the save game restrictions.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

You do know it is possible to save, when standing on the cross platform?
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

One of the village elders in the clanhall at the beginning of the game should inform you about saving mechanics. There is one save point just outside the clanhall and another one in Eli's hut, before a first monster appears in the new version, so I want to make sure you have the most recent file. Also, note that if you import your party you will start at the original starting point in the woods with no saving point around. In such case please play with the characters in the game I need to test their special abilities.
Anyway, I will upload version with saves enabled everywhere within a couple hours. It should make testing game mechanics and game progression much easier.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Clodius_one »

I did some web search about Theron's Quest pictures to draw it on my DM world map and found out that the castle looks like Skullkeep castle too. Can someone can tell me if it's the same location or if they're different castle with same appearance.

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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

THEO, I gave your dungeon a try a few days ago. I didn't see the first saving platform you're talking about, I probably turned the wrong way. Anyway, I was able to find Eli's house without encountering any creature so I saved there. Then I spent 10 or 20 minutes knocking on walls to apparently get my first companion, but I decided to try some magic meanwhile and died instantly because of trying a spell. I never had the will to play again.
Restricted save games, spending 10s of minutes knocking on walls and instant death caused by trying spells are not exactly attracting to a new player, and the first pieces of storyline described in the scrolls (too many at the same time) were not very attracting either. What the player expects is that the dungeon will get harder, with instant kills everywhere, saving checkpoints placed at long distances from the danger and more annoying features. Your dungeon might be very interesting, you might have spent years on it, but if the begining is bad, then no one will play it.
First thing to do in my opinion: permanently delete that save game restriction, not just for the testing, or give the player the ability to choose between the two options. To me, saving check points are -always- boring and made me quit playing most of the games that use them.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Alright. There is a version with saves allowed now.
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PaulH
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by PaulH »

I've give up playing. Looks like it has huge potential, but with a random chance that a normal spell will kill you it is just not worth it. 1 vi potion, dead. A few ful spells, dead.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Oh c'mon now! There is a scroll near Eli's staff which clearly states that casting an element rune without specifying a form will make the element appear in cloud. There are no random spell kills, the magic is just more complex than in original DM. I will upload a new version with harmful effects removed.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

There was no random chance in magic. All spells are bound to have just one effect, but ok, now it is totally safe to use magic.
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

I think that having spells that can turn harmful because they are casted by some ignorant sorcerer is ok, it makes sense. I read that scroll and new that I had to learn magic again. But instant kills??? No way. What do you want, prevent the player from trying to learn by himself? Or have to reload after each wrong try? Or just frustrate him?
Most of us DM players are very used to DM spells, so we obviously would make these mistakes during the whole game. And what, get killed because we played DM too much?
Once again, you may keep this spell system, maybe as an option that the player could chose at the very begining (I think it would be possible through some relays in RTC), but reducing the damage would be fair. Or just make two different games, one for hardcore players (1% of the players?) with killing mistakes and restricted savegames and one for usual players (99%?).

I'll probably try the current version some day.
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PaulH
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by PaulH »

casting an element rune without specifying a form will make the element appear in cloud
It doesn't say it will instantly kill you either! I don't mind a challenge, but instant death as soon as I experiment was unexpected. Maybe if it took away your stamina, or reduced stats temporarily, with a message that pops up to say why. At the beginning the player needs something to get stuck into so they want to carry on.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Point taken and amended. Please have patience with me, this is why I need testers to point this out for me.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Just a sidenote. I have altered the magic system for following two reasons:
1) I like that RTC lets you restrict runes so that you have to find them first - I think finding runes is a very rewarding element and is a priest/wizard counterpart for finding new armour and weapon for fighter/ninja (magical staffs and items never did the job for me in original DM). You really become a better spellcaster once you learn a new rune. However in such system each rune should open a very specific set of spells, so that dungeon maker had a clear idea what a party is capable of at each stage of the game.
2) I included several new spells, so a rearrangement was required. There are 54 compared to 34 of DM2 (but I had removed 7 spells from DM2, so actually there is 27 new ones) now, but all but the most advanced ones can be cast without alignment. What I did know is that I downgraded them so that even the one rune spells were beneficial mostly. There are now only three harmful spells, but they are darkness, long darkness and slow. There are still some summoning spells, which can be potentially harmful, that is if you summon hostile elemental minion, but at the stage a player has them, he should be able to deal with him.
3) I didn't like that in the original DM the most basic wizard spell forever solves the need for a good light, rendering torches utterly pointless very early into the game. I would like party to carry torches for a little bit longer as they have a potential to generate choices for the player. Now I downgraded the light spell back to ful, but hopefuly with restriction on power runes use of torches still will be desirable at least 15% into the game.
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Now that's appealing. I agree with nearly everything you said.
I know what it is to spend a long time working on a dungeon, I've done this as well and still have to finish my dungeon (which also includes a new spell system). If I release it one day, I wouldn't like my dungeon to be ignored or rejected after a few minutes of playing, that's probably why 'm trying to give you advices.
Your explanations on the spell system here are more appealing than your other posts and than what I've seen during my short time of playing. I think you'd better expose some of the game features (not all of them, keep some for the player to discover) in your opening post, maybe some pics, maybe some of the story, to get the players attracted.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Well there is not really much new in terms of graphics and story. The original DM was not particularly story-driven RPG either. All I aimed for to better utilize the possibilities which the DM2 story already offers and make it longer.
The torch mechanics are one example. Another thing is the economy. In DM2 you skipped most of the equipment in the shops, because very early in the game you had enough money to buy almost the best one. Did anyone ever wear scale hauberk? I want each piece of equipment player gets or can afford to buy to really matter.
One example from DM2, which sums it up. You find a vorpal blade, you enter a graveyard a spectre pops up, you kill it with a vorpal blade and you leave the graveyard. The graveyard has its own unique wallset (kind of), flooritems and monster, but it is about 3x3 spaces, you walk through it in less than 2 mins. and the spectre is nowhere else to be seen in the game. What a waste of resources for me to have this all be created by graphics and than used in such a rushed manner.
So I made the graveyard larger, added couple of new tombs with loot and have the player be chased by ghosts for some times, before he finally acquires some means to deal with them. This way the victory should be more satisfactory, although the game will obviously become more challenging.
I scattered the heroes around the map, so that they also offered a new possibilities. Each of them has a unique skill ala Ravenwood, which are designed to benefit the player most at the location he is currently at, so picking your team also should matter more than in the original game and should increase the replayability value.
I also aimed to offer multiple paths to solve problems, unique challenges and hopefuly bosses, which will require some untraditional tactic so that they could be defeated.

I certainly did not want the dungeon to be uber difficult. I think I am happy with most of the proposed changes, not sure about the light spell though. Hardcore version is always an option, if there is a demand for it. I am still in a process of testing and balancing this game and am happy for a useful feedback.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

I will try to do some more attractive promo, though. Thanks for the tip and good luck with your dungeon.
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

I started it again. So far, after like 1 or 2 hours, I really like it.
Too bad the first version was not attracting in the very beginning, because what comes next is very good.
Two first remarks:
- The text sometimes come too fast, I think about that guy who gives you a quest in the tunnels (with skeletons), no one would be able to read the first part of his speech.
- I found a new hero. How can I leave one of my current party members? I thought I read something about that, but I can't find it...
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

I am glad to hear that.
- This NPC is the only one which has such a long reply. I may consider rewriting it so that it takes only three lines, but until then I will probably make the pause longer.
- Originally you could place heroes back to empty freezers just by clicking at them, but it was too tempting to loot their belongings and get rid of them. Now you need to use up green freezer box, however there may be too few. Did you manage to find some already?

Also there is a known dead path in the current version, which I am fixing right now. So please make one save before going in giants keep (using master or blood key) because there exists a slight possibility you will lock yourself inside.
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Yes, I think a longer pause would be enough for this NPC. Or a menu opening with "more" as only option.
I can buy green boxes. I've been able to release one of my party members after several mistakes using the green box. The method to dismiss a party member makes sense, but it's far from being straightforward, even when you know you need a green box, I think you should add an elder explaining this (actually, I would replace these elders by a readme, they feel out of place). Just my opinion, of course...
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Readme is certainly planned for crucial mechanics, but some ingame tips by elders may be welcomed too. I will probably implement the 'MORE' option into the dialogue.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

THEO, have you had a chance to check out the AI test dungeon? it address's your issues. i'll try and post it once more and have a look. it's only 2 meg in size. NPCs in RTC work but they can't be removed from party back into the dungeon where the party stands, if the party is in a corner or has 3 sides blocked, whether it be monster or wall or object, it will error. the solution i found that works quite well is to when removing a NPC from the party, you activate a generator to put the NPC back into the dungeon in a place where you found them, or anywhere that suites best to your dungeon. i'll post it again. there is a lot to look into when playing with the NPCs. i can see some pretty cool dungeons coming out in the future :D
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Thank you, Chaos-Shaman. Although I have note implemented possibility of NPC to joining your party, this AI test dungeon cought my attention. I will certainly check that out, whether I could utilize some of the mechanics.
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