[RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

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THEO
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

You don't need to look at the monitor, btw.
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

I give up...
Spoiler
There are tons of empty gears bars and empty eye holes, much more than the number of gears and eyes I can find or buy in that market far away. Most of the times I put eyes/gears in places, I don't understand if placing them actually did any good and I just can't pick them back. There are tons of buttons, pads, keyholes and all that I can activate but don't understand what for.

Also, there are tons of doors that I broke using a weapon or the ring instead of solving an enigma or such. And I used levitate over several pits, including the pit maze (it looked like the only solution to pass the first pits).

I have been able to activate the fire valve, and I just don't know how. The conveyor is off, there is not pyro for the golems to use, and if I go take a pyro far away and put it in the furnace, the fire turns off...?

I'm currently in front of a door saying 'tomb of the archmage', I don't know if I can enter or if I should do something else before...

So all in all, I don't know if I'm where I'm supposed to be, don't know if I should have done what I did (don't actually know what I did) and don't know what to do. Having a big complex place like this is nice, but it would be nice to have some real clues on what to do and in what order, or where to look, or what is mandatory and what is not. I've been in there for several hours and I feel like I did nothing of importance... The scrolls seem totally useless for understanding this all. Also, having a book or something to keep them all as one single item would be nice.
So... I guess I need a clue.
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terkio
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by terkio »

I think, the key to a good dungeon is understanding what is going on.
Killing monsters, solving puzzles is fun, however what we really expect is good virtual reality..
Understanding what happens is an important feed back to feel the realm, real.
"You can be on the right track and still get hit by a train!" Alfred E. Neuman
THEO
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

All right...

I hoped that the scrolls in the shop should clarify the basic mechanics, but will probably have to add more local specific info into the dungeon. Maybe even some RTC hints.
- Do not give up, you are almost at the end. From your description it sounds you are doing good. If you explore this level a little bit more, you should be able to find room with a blob, one of them should be carrying a vi key, that should unlock the way to the topmost level.
- None of the gear bars, or techeyes really do matter, they only unlock some shortcuts and bonuses. The most important of them is probably the conveyor belt and the vater valve, they require the steam engine to run.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

None of the techeye, gear stuff is really mandatory. The gears can come handy later, the eyes... meh. You can retrieve the gears from the locks, which have bars next to them, only not from the slots you can cover with plates, this should be explained better. Even if you placed it in the slot and not covered by plate, there is a chance that imp will remove it, but if it doesn't, the better.
If you found your way around without using the mechanisms, good for you then. Do not worry about it. The archmage's tomb contains a powerful item. If you have managed to open it, than kudos to you, if not, do not worry about it.
Quite a lot of eyes and gears should drop from Imp in labyrinth beneath the pit/wall throwing puzzle on conflux level, just before the entrance to VI level.

OK, heavy spoilers ahead:
Spoiler
To activate the crystal you will have to:
A) Have the lightnings produced by the dynamo hit it. The dynamo is powered by the engine in the level below. The engine (or the boiler, which fuels it) requires both water valve and fire valve to be on.
A1.) The water valve is on your current level. You can turn it on as long as there is some water in the water reservoir. There is 60 units of water right now. Once you do this, place a guard minion next to it, because imps will try to switch it off again.
A1.1.) The water in the reservoir refills slowly if it is raining outside.
A1.2.) OPTIONAL: If the engine is already running, you can place gear next to the waterpumps in the engine room below and turn them on. Cover the gear with a plate or place a minion guard to prevent imps from stealing your gears! This will refill the watertank faster than it can drain and as long as you take care of the fire, you are fine.
A2.) The fire valve only requires a furnace to burn. Place guard there to prevent imps from turning it off.
A2.1.) Each pyro makes the furnace burn for 30secs or so. You can stack them (if you cannot this is a bug!). Whenever one pyro is burned a new one should occur in the furnace room. If it does not, it is also a serious bug.
A2.1.1.) OPTIONAL: The conveyor belt is being activated in a similar way as the pumps. It requires running engine and gear. Its function is to place the new pyro's directly to the furnace, so that the golems do not have to look for the pyro anywhere else.
A2.1.2.) The golems will seek blindy for first pyro, which than they pick up. Than they will wait until it is time to stoke and then first golem with the pyro to the furnace will do so and than seek for another. That means the other golems may be holding pyro's just waiting for their turn.

If you have problems having the furnace on, there might be some broken mechanic. I hope this is not the case, but even if it is, I hope we can figure a way around.

Once the engine is running, place a vacuum fuse in the slot near the shooter at the top level and turn it on. Be careful though, the boiler will slowly consume the water reserves. The vacuum fuse will also last only couple of minutes, so you may want to wait for the part B).

B1) Arrange mirrors so that the lightning from other shooter will reach the crystal. This will take some effort, but once you figure it out, you just need to watch out for imps turning the mirrors, which occurs very rarely and is easy to fix.
B2) Go to the roof, enter the vacuum fuse and wait for a lightning to hit the rod. Once it happens the shooter will be active for a couple of minutes. Now is maybe the good time, to use other vacuum fuse and switch the dynamo shooter.

Now that both lightnings hit the crystal, wait for the electric trail to reach the zo gate and hit the switch.
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Allright, I was not that far indeed. I just forgot one door to reach the water valve. But I still can't find that VI key... What do you mean by "blob"? The "glop" monster? There are some of them getting created in that big room that I really can't understand, but they don't give keys...

Few problems:
Spoiler
- I have the engine on, and the conveyor is also working now (well, actually it doesn't work as expected: the conveyor button breaks the furnace mechanism somehow, no matter if the engine is on or not, if I push that button the furnace turns off after a few minutes. On the other hand, if I don't push the button, it looks like the furnace never turns off). Also, the monitors in the engine room (the ones with gfx problems) appear/disappear, according to the state of the fire valve.
- Is there an animation for the pump/its monitor? I can't get it to work, even when the engine is on and two gears in place in that room. BTW, there is a door I can't open near the pump.
- There is at least one gearhole with bars (near some stairs leading to the cave) that won't let me take the gear back
Oh, also, I don't understand what part of the dungeon you mean by "conflux level" and such. I don't understand what these few signs stand for and I don't understand what zones they cover.

Well, so my main problem now is that VI key (there are still lots of secondary riddles that I haven't been able to solve, but knowing they are not mandatory, I don't care about them anymore. It makes everything much simpler)... Where exactly should I look?
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Thanks for the info.

Spoiler
The key is indeed in the large glop room. One of the glops most probably picked it up, so you need to keep killing them until one of them drops it. If you have a blue gem, you can reach a mechanism that will launch constant fireballs into the room, which you can than redirect by teleports, that you activate with gold coins. If not, you will have to use a lot of your fireballs to clean them out. The faster you can kill them, the less they will reproduce. The glops spawn from the grates so stay away from them. How many of them there are? Are they too tough to kill? I will have to add more info on that room.
- That is really weird, I will have to do some testing to figure out what is going on. The conveyor should be a help, not the other way around. That monitor should display the state of the fire valve, but it is weird that it simply disappears.
- That is also weird. There should be an animation. You can tell the pumps are in effect when the water level does not decrease even when the engine is on.
- OK, that is probably that gear that makes the snakes appear and attack the vexirks in the room to the south. I will fix that.
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Spoiler
The key is not there. Currently, there is no glop in there. One spawns from time to time when I step near one of three possible grates, not always. And I can kill them with just one weak lightning or one weak fireball (so the big fireball shooter and the teleports are just a danger to me, certainly not an help). I've been able to get 4 glops present at the same time by stepping around the grates and not killing them, but playing normally, there is no more than 0 or 1 glop at a given time.
I tried reloading an old savegame, before entering the pit maze and it's the same: no key, and no glop when I enter the glops room. So I guess it doesn't work as you expected. Should the key appear after I kill lots of glops or should it be just laying there on the floor? In the first case, it would probably take a lot of time. In the second case... well, it's not there and I can't finish the game.

For the pump: it does not work, the water level keeps decreasing no matter if I push the pumps button or not.

For the snakes that appeared in the main level... They were no help, they attacked me, not the vexirks. Well, I never saw vexirks and snakes fighting each other, so even if they did, the snakes looked like enemies to me, nothing else.

Also, I don't understand that scroll or elder (can't remember) saying the keep will lock after I enter. The doors are still open.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Spoiler
- I am looking at the editor right now and the key is there, in the inventory of one of the Glops. I have no idea how it could have disappeared. Perhaps it could have been cause by a trigger, that was supposed to buff all glops that enter on it. I am removing them just to be sure. If the key is really gone, than I am really sorry, but you will not be able to finish the game. You made it almost to the end (there was one small skullkeep level and a bossfight), though and provided a lot of valuable feedback.

- OK, I should make the glops more a substantial threat.
- I think now I know what is the issue. Hopefully that will be fixed in the next version.
- I have removed the spawning snakes then.
- That should be a bug.

I hope you had mostly enjoyable time with the game. Are there some general comments, ideas and reccomendations for the game?
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Spoiler
Well, something happened and made all the glops disappear, that's all I can say from my side. It's not that they got killed, since there is no key on the floor, I've been looking everywhere several times.
I guess having lots of glops when entering that room would make them a bigger threat already (they are fragile, but they can almost kill one of my champions in one hit).

Maybe you can send me a version of the dungeon with an already strong team (basically, Kol, Jarod, Aliai, Uggo with all 400 in health and stamina, 150 in mana, the first 2 expert/craftman/adept/adept and the 2 others craftman/expert/adept/expert, some flasks, a full spellbook, the best magic map, the two nice rings, 4 full plate armors, 2 crossbows+full quivers and I weirdly use 2 morgensterns instead of techmaces/vorax/blue steele) and a teleport leading directly where I currently am, with all the mandatory items and either all the engine stuff running or easily accessible, so I can finish the testing without having to restart...
For recommandations/things that disappointed me:
- obviously, the bugs and other things that I told you about (the keep is a bit too frustrating/discouraging as is, will get very good if you find a way to tell the player what is mandatory and what is not, and maybe explain the engine stuff a little more, these are probably the hardest points)
- having advices in-game is nice, but only if it preserves the game spirit. All the elders talks about gameplay and how to save the game and all is immersion breaking. There are several elders talks and scrolls like this
- lack of storyline, but it's a DM II remake so it's quite normal... The 4th clan key zone was nice for its story
- lack of new gfx... There are some, not much
- maybe a lack of puzzles in the first zones
- from my memories, the first zones creatures are often very slow with lots of HP. Made many fights boring. On the other hand, after entering the keep, the fights are quite easy
- the snakes room...
Spoiler
I tried several times, for some reasons (too numerous/too fast/too hard to scare/something else?) I've never been able to make a single one of them enter the cells.
- you have to tell somehow that there are less eyes than eyeholes (I can't do the snakes room anyway, frustrating): in the first half you can do everything, in the keep you have to make choices... The player can't guess that.

Well, and for what I prefered:
- many original new mechanisms that the player can use everywhere (through items, spells or champions abilities). On this, it was probably the best custom dungeon I've played.
- other new mechanisms (rotting food, weapons that get worn and can be repaired, enemies attacks)
- accessing new champions by exploring hidden places
- nice mapping overall, the player has to explore and get used to the maps, gets lost first but can totally navigate the whole place then
- having to learn the spells is nice
- good duration (the in-game scroll tells me 11h, but I guess it's more between 15-20h with all the reloaded games)

Overall, it was better than DM II.
THEO
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Sure, how about that I send you this party at the start of the skullkeep so you can retest all the changes I made to it and tell me if it was sufficient?
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Why not. Well, it won't be like I don't know what to do already, but I'll try to think as if.
You can upload it on your google drive (or mediafire or similar) and send me the link by PM here.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

File Skullkeep.RTC now available for testing in the first link.
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Well, I don't think that the starting Torham alone will be able to do it.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

There should be freezers with your heroes in the first room on the cave level. You also have a cube to get rid of the Torham.
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Have you fixed the furnace/conveyor?
Spoiler
- This time, when there are several golems, they just keep on blocking each other from accessing the furnace. When one puts a pyro in, he can't go back because another golem is there blocking the way, trying to access the furnace which is blocked by the first golem. I had to kill all the golems but one.
- When there is just one golem, he is not fast enough to maintain the furnace burning. I guess that's what should happen.
- Operated by hand, the furnace takes 2 pyros to start burning.
- I've been able to activate the conveyor. It still does nothing, the fire turns off after a few seconds.
So, each time I activate the furnace by myself, and then reactivate the engine, once I reach the crystal the engine is turned off again. I might be able to pick several pyros with me and wait for more to be generated so I could get the furnace burning longer, but it's clearly not the expected behaviour...
Spoiler
Just to be sure, is the trigger activating the weather at the begining of the game the trigger that activates the lightnings as well ? (as I started at the entrance of the keep, the weather system was off, I've been going back to the very begining of the game, but I still can't see lightnings)
And when you say "place a fuse near the shooter" and "use mirrors so that the lightning from other shooter will reach the crystal", what shooter are you referring to? The ones activated by eyes? I can't see any fuse slot near a shooter... There is still a teleport protecting a door and a button that I haven't been able to turn off, but I don't think there is a shooter inside...
For the rest:
Spoiler
- The levitate spell totally breaks most of the riddles in the keep. All the triggers activated by the party (you probably choosed "on" and not "on and over) can be avoided, same for all the pits. This spell could be nice, but just be careful not to break the game with it.
- The ram corridors... The timing is bad: they don't push when they come out of the wall, it's more like after the start going back in and when they're inside...
- Why did you replace the healing spell by the footprints one? If you can't balance it, why don't you just delete it or replace it by a non-existing spell?
- Did you really replaced the dragon eye by some basic fireball shooter? Why?
- Are the fire legs the only reward for both the gladiator room/the snake room/the solid-but-very-weak creatures corridor/the associated riddle? The gladiator fight is probably the hardest, the snake room is one of the hardest to complete, the whole thing takes like one hour, and in the end, just some poleyn and food?
- Overall, the fights are clearly more difficult now, and not too much, so I think they're better.
- I think I never understood what all the caves were about. Most of the keyholes there are useless, and I can't see what the final reward is. Are they... useless?
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Continuation:
Spoiler
Actually, the conveyor works. But it apparently kills the golem behaviour: when the conveyor is on, the one golem I left there keeps wandering around aimlessly instead of looking for pyro. When I directly give him a pyro, he takes it after a while, goes to the furnace, place the pyro and starts wandering around again.
I've blocked him there with a guard minion and I now can hope on having the furnace and all on forever, t worked several minutes now.
I don't know exactly how you made this in RTC, but it just doesn't work as expected and needs a fix. Do you have a monster attractor where the conveyor brings the pyros? Also, if you look at DM II, the furnace is in the center of the room, making it very accessible, from 3 directions, instead of yours where the golems get stuck if there are several of them.
Also, the monitor for the fire valve is still disappearing when the fire valve is on and shows nothing when it's off.

Anyway... I've now been able to have the lightning activated by the engine and the fuse hitting the crystal. And apparently, nothing else. I have a fuse in place on the roof, but no storm occuring there. I've been waiting for minutes there, the weather changes, but there are no lightnings. I've seen lightnings outside, but not there.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Spoiler
Ok, thanks for the testing. I have no moved the furnace to the center of the room with a lot of space around it and added attractors for the golems triggered by the pyro. The disappearing monitor is an enigma to me, I will have to check that out.

Darn! This is a regression error. It worked in the previous version, but in this one I messed it up. I am afraid new version will be required for the fix. I will also include a staff to chase of the snakes to the cells.
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terkio
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by terkio »

Isn' t the
Spoiler
horn of fear
the right tool to deal with
Spoiler
snakes
?
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

There is no
Spoiler
horn of fear
(I think), it's more of a DM 1 item. And there is no
Spoiler
warcry
.
Spoiler
I don't think there is a way to scare the snakes, except by getting their HP close to 0.
Spoiler
I used one other item though. Since I just needed two waves of snakes, it works well, but it's not very practical and doesn't look like the expected solution.
A staff of fear or something like that would be interesting indeed, just don't place it in that room so it's not too obvious.
If you upload a new version and still want me to beta test, I don't want to test the whole keep again, just to
Spoiler
check if the furnace/conveyor works well, activate the crystal and finish it
.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

OK, I will prepare that save for you.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

The file has been uploaded.
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Furnace/conveyor:
Spoiler
the golems system works this time, but not as expected I guess. I had only one golem there, he's able to keep the furnace on forever. And the conveyor apparently does nothing, activating it does not move the pyros.
I was able to activate the crystal this time.
Spoiler
I don't know why you said the mirror puzzle was hard, a single mirror is enough... Also, the lightnings on the roof apparently hit the same tile next to the rod like 5 times out of 6 or more. I had to wait for two successive storms to finally get one lightning on the rod... I don't remember how it was done in DMII, but since lightning rod are supposed to catch the lighnings, having lightnings hitting the tiles around seems nonsense to me...
For the last fight,
Spoiler
I guess you can keep it like this as it's not easy to do while still doable, but i didn't like it. I never like that place in DMII anyway, but it felt even more nonsense to me this time, mostly because of two things: Dragoth sometimes floats in the air, and missing a step just feels like the best way to escape him.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Thank you for your report again.
Do you have any ideas, suggestions how to make the final confrontation more interesting?
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Igor Poulpupov
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by Igor Poulpupov »

Well, I guess you want to keep it DMII-ish, so you'll need to keep the blue clouds, moving tiles and all... As I said, I don't like this place in DMII, but at least it gives numerous possiblities to make it a very special fight. 4/5 things you could do:
Spoiler
- avoid the possibility for the player to cast bolts from afar with Dragoth unable to move to the party (that's what happens when entering Dragoth's place, you don't have to get close to him as in DMII, you can just attack him from afar. And then, suddenly, he starts flying over 'empty' tiles and is able to reach the party...).
- repair that 'Dragoth flying over the place' bug (?). Or let him 'fly' all the time, with the party having to walk on the blue tiles and Dragoth going everywhere. The only problem is that Dragoth doesn't look like he can fly. Also, that would not be the same Dragoth as in DMII...
- find a different solution for when the player misses a step. Maybe hurt him (as when falling in a pit) and respawn him on a random tile so he won't use this as a way to easily escape Dragoth. The player could still try doing this in case of extreme danger, which is not a bad thing.
- if you do that, maybe reduce the number of moving tiles or make them last longer, and always moving in straight lines, because being chased by Dragoth would already be a sufficient danger... As you wish.
- also, don't make the game end as soon as Dragoth dies, leave something for the player to do, display some text, provide some reward or something.
One thing I would keep to make it different from DMII:
- have the fight in blue clouds "corridors" instead of a large "room" (well, at least that's how I had to fight)
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by The Journeyman »

wow, pretty cool. I always felt that the DM2-Game had a lot of wasted potential as well and it's great to see a different approach to the DM2-World with your custom dungeon!

Haven't had much time testing it but I've reanimated a fellow warrior and I bought a club with nails in it at the local merchant. Fear me now, creatures! :D
Additionally, with the last of my coins I was able to get myself a nice loaf of bread for the road. Killed me a couple of wolves and roasted their meat on the spot. Sonja, my fellow warrior, complains that it might spoil soon, but we'll see.
Also the villagers are complaining that I bring all the crap from outside into their shiny stores. I told them I was just tracking, but they just don't understand...
I'm gonna sleep in the rat room.
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Re: [RTC] New Dungeon: Return to Skullkeep (Beta)

Post by THEO »

Well, I hope you will have fun.
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