Towers of Chaos (old discussion thread)

Custom dungeons for CSBWin. Includes all Confux 2 and 3 discussions.

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Trantor
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Post by Trantor »

Thank you all for your help! I did indeed get the blue gem from the Wild Woods, thanks. I also revisited the "Time is of the essence" puzzle and realized that I didn't finish it; I missed the opening walls! After several tries, I am quite sure I did it correct this time. The door opened, but strangely, the pit in front of the door did not close. I probably messed up again somehow...

Anyway, I am stuck yet again... I have come past the towers and have found an interesting place with two stairs leading down, an open pit, another pit that can be opened via a switch, and a scroll that reads "Choke the pit". Jumping in the pit led me to two Oitus and a corridor with the inscription "Asphyxiation" next to an evil face. I clicked at the face, threw fireballs against it and even tried bashing it with weapons, but nothing seems to do anything. Does it have something to do with the illusionary walls in the corridor?

Sorry for asking yet again. PaulH, if you are interested in feedback, I could list all my comments on your dungeon once I finish it. But for that, I need to get along first... ;)
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Post by PaulH »

Wow you are a fast player!

The asphyxiation puzzle closes the pit upstairs that blocks a button. Think of an object that 'asphyxiates'. Begins with a 'c'...

Would love some feedback (as long as its nice lol!)
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Post by Trantor »

Argh... That's what you get for always playing the German version! I am used to the German version, and the "Choker" is called "Halsband" there, which means "Necklace" in English! So I didn't pay attention to names of items I already knew... Is this a good enough excuse, or do I still look silly? ;)

About the feedback: Don't worry, it will be positive, though I might have some minor points of constructive criticism - be warned! ;)
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Post by PaulH »

It was a little obscure I suppose, most people think the choker is a useless item anyway.

No problem asking questions!
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Post by beowuuf »

yeah, i think i remember either almost throwing it away or throwing it away then comign to that puzzle
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Post by PaulH »

Too set in yer DM ways... the next choker will give you 17 wizard levels and kill dragons by telekinesis.

Maybe I should warn... don't drop owt!
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Post by linflas »

daaaaaamn where did i put that *** choker !!!! :evil:
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Post by Trantor »

Argh, I'm stuck yet again! I FINALLY made my way through the level with that teleporter room (that cost me a LOT of nerves!), and now I find myself standing in front of another teleporter. When I enter, I am surrounded by four iron gates, and several Zytazes attack me. I killed them, but I can't open any of the doors, not with a weapon, a fireball or a ZO spell. I also tried throwing something through the bars, but nothing happened. I have seen a Worm crawling around the place beyond the bars as well, do I have to kill it?
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Post by beowuuf »

that one is eeeeeeeeevil! evvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvviiiiiiiiil!
yet simple...but EEEEEEEVILLLLLLLLLLLL

i remmeber gaining lots of levels and wasting lots of time before gettign it..or maybe i had to ask for a hint...
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Post by PaulH »

Face South... cast a couple of poison clouds. The clue was in the scroll! Hehe!
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Post by Trantor »

I finally finished Towers of Chaos, and I am ready to give feedback as I promised. Keep in mind, though, that this is the first custom dungeon I played, and that I never tried to build anything for DM myself, so my comments might be a bit off. So, whoever plays the dungeon and doesn't want any hints, be warned:

SPOILER ALERT:



Things I liked:

Creative Environments: I really like the idea of a market-place having shops and all that. Having parts like a church or forest shows a lot of creativity, as the graphics are, of course, limited. Displaying a broken bridge via two pits and having to repair it was also great (by the way, was that puzzle inspired by Wizardry 6? It immediately reminded me of the bridge puzzle in the mountains of Bane of the Cosmic Forge).
Puzzles: I am 100% sure that the hardest part of building a dungeon is coming up with new, innovative puzzles that are not too obscure to solve. And I have to say that your dungeon is simply marvellous. "Double your money" is very innovative, as are puzzles like "Asphyxiation" or the place where I last got stuck (you know, the cell that you have to break out of via poison clouds - very interesting way of giving the player a hint!). You also provided very good variations of old DM and CSB puzzles, like the teleporter room (I almost went mad in there), the pits that open and close in rhythmic fashion, the "Time is of the essence" puzzle, or the one where you have to cast a ZO spell and a fireball through a teleporter. All in all, brilliant.
Awkward situations: Putting a bunch of strong monsters in a small room might be hard, but it is also boring. You did a great job of creating troublesome fights via awkward situations, like the teleporter that brings you in front of a door, with a pit right behind you and two demons on the other side. Great!
Size: Well, size DOES matter somewhat, and ToC doesn't disappoint. Though it is huge (I'd say it's bigger than DM, right?), it doesn't feel "bloated" - there is a lot to do and to discover everywhere.
Clearness: In spite of the size, the player still has a good overall view of everything. You divided the dungeon into several parts, thus avoiding too much confusion where you actually are and what you can do next.
New Spells: Though I didn't use Iceball very much, it was very cool to have something new to hurl at the monsters. And thanks a lot for finally providing a spell to make a FUL bomb!
New Graphics: Great to see so much new stuff! The cross in the church is very cool, and all the new items look great, too (btw, it took me quite a while to figure out what icicles and ice crystals do - I thought they were some sort of keys first! lol). My reaction to the new monster graphics is a bit mixed, though. The best ones are clearly the Balrogs (fantastic!) and the very spooky Zytazes. The flying axes are a great idea, the Screamers are cute, and the Golems look great, too (apart from their strange tiny feet). The flying eyes also look good. The mummies certainly look good as well, but I think they don't quite fit the style of the DM graphics. They look as if they come from DM2 with its darker, dirtier look (and if they actually DO come from DM2, please forgive me - I only played it once about 10 years ago). Did you do all the graphics on your own? Just curious, as it would still heighten my respect for you for putting such a great effort into this dungeon.



Things I didn't like:

Armor: You did a good job by giving away the best weapons and armor towards the end of the game. But I think I entered the Fortress of Chaos with at least one character completely naked. Having played quite a long time to that point, I found this quite irritating. Maybe you could add some sort of normal clothing in the beginning of the game.
Experience: In the very beginning of the game, I thought that gaining levels was very difficult. When I exited the church, none of my characters had more levels than just a single Neophyte (and believe me, the flying eyes in the vault were VERY hard to do!). When finding the "training room" with the eyes, rock piles and screamers, all was fine, of course. But I encountered something very strange when heading to the "poison corridor" that ended at a door with several Oitus in there. My wizards gained levels like crazy, I only needed to cast 3-5 fireballs to gain a level! My wizards went from Journeyman to Expert in about 5 minutes! Was this intentional?



Things I also noticed:

Illusionary Walls that don't do anything: I encountered several ones of these. To me, they seem quite pointless and unnecessary. But I also understand that these "red herrings" can be used to distract and confuse the player. People who find lots of illusionary walls that seem to have no function tend to become lazy as well, so they might miss some treasure, like the Eye of Time in the Orange Tower (or was it the blue one?). I guess it is just a matter of taste, but I didn't like these walls.
Food: From browsing this thread, I see that lots of people complained that there was not enough food in earlier versions (I played v3.0). After getting out of the church, I found plenty of food, a lot more than enough. However, after going through the door with the two mirrors, I didn't find anything edible until I met the Balrogs down at Lord Chaos' level. Sure, you can go back up, but some items in that last part of the dungeon would be nice.
Shortcuts: I am a huge fan of shortcuts that bring you back to a certain place where you need a key item you just found. Luckily, you included such shortcuts at the end of the Blue and Green Tower and after getting the two mirrors. You also provided several "shortcuts back" that bring you from the end of a level to the start of it. This limits pointless and boring running to a minimum, well done. However, I would have liked if at least some of these shortcuts worked both ways. I had quite a frustrating experience after finding the two mirrors: I got teleported back to the market-place, but had not been to every place. So I decided to go back up the Fortress, which took quite some time. Arriving there, I checked out the door where I needed the Jade Key - and I was back at the Hall of Champions! So I went up the whole Fortress AGAIN to finally check out the rest. That was a bit annoying, teleporters that work the other way would be very nice.



Things I didn't get:

Dragon Spit: Is this a new, custom weapon? I can't remember any weapon like it or any option called "Sever" in both DM and CSB. I'm just curious if you completely made that up, or if it does exist in the original games.
The "Riddle Scroll" and the Zokathra spell at the end: I have absolutely no clue what named scroll is trying to tell me. My guess is that it has something to do with the Demon Faces at the bottom level, is that true? I just tried them all and found out that the correct Face does not have an open pit above it, is that coincidence or a clue?
Several items I didn't need: I finished the game with a spare Solid Key and a Key of B. I don't think you can tell me where to use them with any more information, I just thought I should tell you. On the other hand, I did not find a second Iron Key in the Blue Tower to activate the teleporter there. Did I miss it? Even more interesting are the two Corbums I found at the level with the Fire Corridor. I found two Zokathra spells as well there, and I have no idea what I should do with any of these items. The item that irritated me most was, however, the SAR Potion I found at "Double your money". I can't drink it and have found absolutely no use for it. What does it do?



All in all, I have to say I am extremely impressed. Your dungeon is certainly not worse than the original games, and I think that is the highest praise I can give to you. The criticism isn't meant to make anything bad, but rather as constructive hints what can still be improved. I'm really looking forward to your new monstrous dungeon! Thanks a lot for a great piece of work!
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Post by PaulH »

Many thanks for the comments!

The graphics were based a lot on existing creatures, but were difficult to manipulate and make work in DM with the limited colour palette. Took me quite a lot of time. Golems, hehe, ran out of space but can change that now with new editors!

Experience - the posion corridor and oitus are a completetly different level which you were invivibly teleported to. The exp multiplier is quite high here as you found out!

Illusionary walls - a lot were there to provide some manoevering space when tackling monsters, some were indeed red herrings.

Food - AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!! hehe!

Shortcuts - There was a shortcut back through the fire corridor which you may have missed

Items - The keys of B opened up the doors to teleporters/shortcuts to the bridge at the very beginning of the blue and green towers. If you missed a using a solid key, you must have missed a little area with some treasure. The sar potion etc were indeed just useless items so people would ask exactly what you did! I am not a fan of having every item having a use!

The coded scroll did provide an answer to the zokathra/demon face puzzle. Once you have shifted the letters 'x' amount in the alphabet, you get a message that makes sense. 'x' is then the demon number. A little obscure maybe!

How did you know the Dragon Spit was an edited weapon?! (now Dark Fury?) I completely changed its graphics (as with a lot of other items) so I am a llittle intrigued that you call a few things by their original names!

Again, great review, I'll take your comments on board and I am glad you enjoyed playing it.
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Post by Trantor »

Whoops, I admit I looked into the editor after finishing, hoping to find some answers to my questions. But Dark Fury? The game calls the weapon "Severious" in my version... Anyway, I still haven't found anything like it in DM or CSB. Thanks for the answer to the scroll puzzle! And the SAR potion was indeed a great red herring! And yes, I think I missed the fire corridor shortcut. Thanks for the info Paul, keep up the great work and build more dungeons like this one!
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Post by PaulH »

Ahhh, I see now! In the editor, I have renamed it Dark Fury, so it well may be Severious in the game! I know what you mean of course, it is a very powerful weapon. You'd think I'd know my own dungeon by now...

I had ideas of redrawing something as a 'red fish' believe it or not. Of course inedible!
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Post by dungeon.master »

Paul Stevens wrote:
I did post a version history on Christophes board, but I can't find it now
That is the big advantage of including all this information in
the dungeon.dat file itself. I know how hard it is to keep two
things synchronized and together.
i found this topic about earlier versions :
http://dmweb.free.fr/Forum/read.php?f=7&i=272&t=272
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Post by PaulH »

V3.1 is the latest, with multiple wall graphics and an outdoor area (a forest!)

I may do 3.2, as the buttons on the castle walls are hard to see with the new graphics.
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by Lai »

i startet to play this custom and cant open 2 doors at beginning...are there any maps to look (and describe the door), or hints how to play this custom?
one of the doors are at "the vault"..it have a buttom in front and teleporter behind the door
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by Jan »

Hmmm, I don't remember this place...
Spoiler
but I think you must throw something through the iron bars and step quickly off the pad to disable the teleporter?
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by Lai »

oh, thanks it works. i found the vi altar behind it. the second door i cant open is nealry the prison and graveyard.
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by Jan »

Lai wrote:oh, thanks it works. i found the vi altar behind it. the second door i cant open is nealry the prison and graveyard.
There are more doors around that place, so I'm not sure which one do you mean. If you mean the door at the end of the corridor behind the prison and graveyard door, you have to Donate to the church once again.
Spoiler
The solution (object) lies in the previous puzzle (The Vault).
If you mean other door, please, describe it.
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by Lai »

no, its the right door...
i will try :)
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by Jan »

Lai wrote:no, its the right door... i will try :)
Ah, then you mean the Prison, right? I think you cannot get into the prison through that door, that door serves only to escape it. But I can't remember how to get into the prison - maybe someone else will remember. But there is nothing vitally important inside - just the ordinary things like some food and clothes and a cool weapon etc. :)

EDIT: OK, I know how to get into the prison now:
Spoiler
There is a pit (hard to see) in the Graveyard (hard to discribe its location... just walk around until you fall into it, heh :) ), fall into that pit and it will get you to a teleporter and this teleporter will take you to the Prison.
EDIT 2: Doh! I'm an idiot! Now I understand your sentence "its the right door" - you meant it's the correct door that I was talking about previously. But I thought that you meant the door to your right, i.e. the Prison door, so I looked into CSBuild how to get into the Prison! DOH! DOH! DOH! I'm an idiot. OK, ignore me... IGNORE THIS WHOLE POST!
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by Lai »

hehe, thanks alot ;) it works what u say...
before i ask i try to take a look with using the editor, but the one i use couldt open the file.
now a play with this editor, its very funny to build own dungeons...
but i will play the towers too :)
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by PaulH »

Sorry I missed this post!

Hoiepfully you have the latest version - it can be opened with CSBuild
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by PaulH »

This is the latest version - not sure it has been updated in Zyx's main list

http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/1251
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by Lai »

hmh...i dont know how to open the .rar file...
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by beowuuf »

winrar, downloaded from rarlab.com
http://www.rarlab.com/rar/wrar390.exe
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by Lai »

oh, thx
:)

and how could i open it with editor?
i cannot find a file (after extract) which could be open by editor
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by Jan »

You should run the CSBuild, and in it, open the dungeon.dat file of ToC.
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Re: Towers of Chaos

Post by Lai »

i use the Retrun to chaos editor version 0.49
needs textfiles..
this one:
http://www.ragingmole.com/RTC/

i have take a look at the editor u speak about...i dont like this one :D
maybe its cause i use the other one since many many hours
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