The Black Flame

Custom dungeons for CSBWin. Includes all Confux 2 and 3 discussions.

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Trantor
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The Black Flame

Post by Trantor »

I had another boring evening, so I decided to play another custom dungeon. My choice was The Black Flame by PaulH, and after a futile first attempt, I started new from scratch, this time doing a bit more training at the Dragon. It was nevertheless a bit frustrating, as I often couldn't find my way, but this more my fault for being slow on the uptake. It took me quite long to think of the lockpick for a certain keyhole, and jumping into the well was an act of desperation because I couldn't find anything anymore. I thought I could not survive there, but with some dragon training it was alright. Then it took me forever to get out of the well again, and I think this can be a deadend. Normally, I tend to not take the required item to get out with me, so it was pure luck that I did indeed carry it with me. Maybe adding another copy of said item in the well would be good, if you still bother with the dungeon. I am now really stuck, though, in the room with the "cast your influence" insciption. I am sure something is there, but I can't find anything. I jumped into all of the pits, found one illusionary wall, but still nothing. What is the point of that room? In spite of my frustration, the dungeon looks good so far (though ToC is probably better). Hope to hear from your next dungeon soon Paul!
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Post by PaulH »

I may change this a little, I designed a made the whole dungeon in 7 days and has not been externally playtested. Give me another week and I'll transfer it to CSBWin and update a few areas. It IS hard!
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Post by Trantor »

I know you are working on your new dungeon Paul, so you probably won't bother with the Black Flame again. Anyway, a little update on my progress:

I once again encountered the iron bar trap that you can exit via poison clouds that haunted me in ToC. No problem this time! :wink: Close by is a door with a mummy behind, and if the mummy steps through the door, it is teleported right behind you. I suppose this was a countermeasure to the water elementals leaving through the door, but I think this could be made into an interesting trap. Especially when fighting Golems and Knights, I tend to use a door whenever I can. Imagine the Golem/Knights being teleported right behind you then! It would be a very nice twist that will catch players by surprise.

And I also think I found a dead end. In that same room I was just talking about is the mine shaft. I did not unlock it in the level above so far, and when I got out of the mine shaft again, I was trapped since I did not have a Skeleton Key. I looked into CSBuild and don't think there is a way out, so I'll just add a Skeleton Key.
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Post by Trantor »

More updates:

I have now reached the "Armageddon" level, and I think this is where it becomes too difficult. Well, "difficult" might not be the corrext expression; maybe "frustration" suits it better. First is the lack of food and water. Due to a dragon in that level, I can manage the food, but there is just not enough water. The last fountain is very far away, and this is bad due to lots of monster generators between you and the fountain and the sheer time you spend in the Armageddon level. It is huge, the monsters are hard, and most of all, you can't always tell what you are accomplishing when you open a keyhole or press a switch. You just have to run around some more, trying to figure out what exactly you just did. I also think you overdid it slightly with the monsters. I can handle a 4000 HP Dragon, and even a 4000 HP scorpion when some lightning bolts help you. But 4000 HP Knights are a bit too much, I think - especially since the level is already difficult enough with all the Materializer generators and lightning bolts flying around. I don't want to whine, and I don't want to say the level is badly designed, which it surely isn't. I'd just appreciate less frustration and a clearer sense of what to do.

Maybe this kind of feedback is of some use to you for your upcoming dungeon, I am really looking forward to it!
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Post by Trantor »

More updates and question:

It seems it is not necessary to get all the 4 orange gems in the Armageddon level. In fact, I didn't find a way to get to the fourth one where you have to throw an item through the two teleporters. How can that area be accessed? I admit I cheated by looking into CSBuild, but I think that's ok as I considered myself more a tester than a player (at least since I needed to hack that Skeleton Key). If you only need to find 3 gems, it is rather irritating to have four gems (though one inaccessible?) and four holes to put them in.

I am now at the very end I guess. First of all, I had to get the blue gem though! I completely forgot about the place where you get it since it is in the very beginning of the game, and I sadly didn't find a shortcut back. Running back the whole dungeon does not seem good to me.

How exactly does the ending work? From your description, it seems obvious that it is still possible to kill Chaos the old-fashioned way, but that is not the point of it all. What does the teleporter that gets activated by using both gems actually do? And what is the significance of opening the two traps with the Vorpal Blades (apart from getting the Firestaff)? Speaking of that, how is the player supposed to know to put them there? I guess this is all beyond the harsh limitations of my brain.

EDIT: Wait, I just had an idea. Guess I'll try it...

EDIT 2: Ok, my idea works. If I only knew what I should do with the Corbamite... I saw that putting the Firestaff into one of the magic eyes is not the way to go...
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Post by PaulH »

Wow, a lot of stuff here! I'll look into it!
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Post by PaulH »

Right here we go! I'll say first off it has been a couple of years since I looked at this, you may now know more about it than me, so I'll try to remember why I may have done certain things. And I'll say again, it does need revising!

-Glad you remembered the poison trap. The nearby teleporter is indeed to stop the elementals escaping and could be turned into a nice trap.

-Yes, I can see the dead end here, maybe I'll give one of the elementals at the bottom of the shaft an extra key.

-I didn't think the fountain was two far away to be honest. Two levels up and not much ground to cover, but I think one added in the Armageddon and/or lower could help. It is a terrifying level and I only completed it a handful of times myself : this was on purpose! It was designed to frustrate the player, be very disorientationg and chaotic but hopefully not make them give in! 4000 hp (2x2000) knights maybe a little OTT so I'll have to change this!

-The area can be accessed from upstairs (14,02): you drop down a pit to the area 'sealed' by the pits and in front of the two blinking teleporters. Oh dear, I set the counter wrong for the door! Should be 4, not 3! Thats Dmute for you hehe. Thankyou for spotting this!

-The gems open the teleporter that can be used to squash Chaos and Order so you can gain their items. You need to manipulate them into the right place, enter the teleporter and bingo.

-The vorpal blades are the weapons that can disrupt the furnace (as vorpal blades can be used to kill, or disrupt, black flames). This opens the levels below where you can gain the firestaff+, but this takes you to the wrong ending (fusing chaos is not known in this story!). Also the blades open the first part of the end mechanism.

-Finally put the corbum in the southern part of the column. This triggers the final bit of the mechanism. Hop round to the front to watch it unfold! The firstaff that Chaos drops is NOT the 'object of pure power' as described in the scrolls in the Town Hall. It is the corbum.

And again, thanks for playing this and taking the time to test.
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Post by Trantor »

Thanks for the replies Paul! You don't need to revise The Black Flame (at least, not for me), my feedback was mainly thought as some clues and hints what I think about general dungeon design. Maybe it helps you spotting potential bugs in your coming dungeon as well.

-Fountains: Yes, they are not that far away, but it requires you to go through the little room with lots of Oitu generators, and since I went through that one way too often already, it just frustrated me a bit. ^^

-The inaccessible area: I don't see any pitholes in the ceiling there. The stairs at (14,02) actually lead down a level, not up! I found a pit at (14,27) that interestingly makes you land in the wall and causes an error message. You can exit the wall both ways, though, and still play on! I encountered a teleporter that had the same problem - and now that I am writing this, I NOW see the way! The teleporter I am talking about is at level 11(10,19). This leads you to 10(14,05), again right in the middle of the wall. If this was intentional, it is actually interesting, since entering the teleporter does not make sure you land in the right area. Still, something that causes an error message seems out of place, so I don't think this was intentional.

-The ending: Ok, I tried putting the Corbum into the alcove, I just never tried it in conjunction with the Vorpal Blades! A very interesting ending indeed, I love how the shooter "transforms", and it is certainly not easy to pull everything off. Very good! I was a bit irritated with the Grey Lord, though. I assume he was supposed to stay where he appeared and talk to you once you step up to him. Instead, he was running around and attacking me! The game ended when I stepped on the right tile, though.

-Something else I noticed: I am not sure if the "Wasp Hall" works as it should. I activated a shooter there, but it didn't really kill off all the wasps. I took a look at my savegame and saw dozens of Wasps flying around there.

All in all, an impressive dungeon with lots of interesting places. It lacks the depth and atmosphere of ToC, as I am sure you are well aware of, and the beginning seemed a bit boring to me (not that much to do), but it got a lot better later on. There were some monster generators too many for my tastes at the end, but I guess that's just me. Maybe I would have had less trouble with a better party - I picked the 4 characters I normally never use this time (just for the record: Iaido, Hawk, Wu Tse and Azizi). I especially liked the fireball corridor/trap/weapon, the mechanism at the end, and the design of the "Armageddon" level as a whole (frustrating, yes, but very well done).
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Post by PaulH »

Did you convert it to CSBWin? Or did I? I can't remember! But this has certainly introduced a few problems (I never blame myself hehe!).

You are right about the stairs, I am thinking of the wrong bit! Curse my memory. The teleporter and pits were intentional to land you in a wall, this did not crash/error DMPC but does CSBWin. I am slowly beginning to remember how this bit works.

The Grey Lord DID stand still in DMPC version but doesn't in CSBWin. I had this problem in the conversion of ToC as well before I altered it in the graphics.dat.

The waspy bit. I'll take a look. Could be a conversion problem, most likely me!

I think it may be worth converting and updating, if there is any interest for a CSBWin version. Though PS will have to look into the wall bug.
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Post by Trantor »

Oh yes, I did convert it, I completely forgot about that! Ok, that's where the problems start occurring, I see. I could have played the original DM (still have the original version with me), but I just like the 4 save slots of CSBWin.

I wonder if anybody else would be interested in a CSB version? I would, but then again, it is more likely that I play ToC again instead of The Black Flame. Still would like a CSBWin version though!
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Post by linflas »

i am interested : i tried to load the .dat file into csbuild but i got errors... then i saved the file and tried to play under csbwin last version... seems working but i'm not sure !
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Post by Trantor »

That's exactly what I did Linflas. It does work and can be finished, but near the end of the game, you will get an error message in two places. These don't really matter as you can still play on and the game won't crash. Also, some mechanisms might not work exactly how they were meant to, but the game remains very playable.
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Post by PaulH »

OK, I'll convert this to CSBWin, update and test. Should be about 3 or 4 days from now.

Overview: A medium size but challenging dungeon with a new ending.
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Post by Trantor »

Medium size? It's not smaller than DM, right?

Anyway, great you are doing this Paul! Thanks for the work you are putting into it.
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Post by PaulH »

I'll have to get Master Stevens to look at this teleporting into walls error. What version of CSBWin did you use and was it a total crash? This is a fairly integral part of the level design, though I can shift the teleporter target. Also I may have to produce a new grpahics.dat to stop the Grey Lord from wandering about
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Post by Paul Stevens »

You can always stop Grey Lord's movements with a
"Monster Movement Filter". For me it would be
easier than producing a new graphics.dat.

You should be able to teleport into walls. CSBuild will
certainly complain but CSBwin should not.
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Post by Trantor »

I was using CSBWin version 9.8. When you teleport into the wall, the game displays the error message "Illegal object Indirect Index". You can click on "ok", and when you move out of the wall, everything is fine again. When you turn around while standing in the wall, the error message is displayed again.
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Post by Zyx »

it could be because there's a decoration on the wall and not matching floor decoration.

For Grey Lord, with CSBedit put its speed to 255 and it won't move.
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Post by PaulH »

This is coming along nicely! Should be ready by tonight.

Decided to make a new graphics file so I can alter a few stats and introduce a few new monsters.

In this game I have doors that are 'edge' on (not connected to walls). Will this cause CSBWin to grumble? It is part of a puzzle
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Post by Paul Stevens »

Certainly the routines that draw the viewport do not
expect to see a door 'edge-wise'. No way to know what
will happen until you try it. We can probably fix crashes
but not the graphics.

(The new "Custom Graphics Engine" will allow you to draw
whatever you please in these cases, by the way.)
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Post by Trantor »

After I simply loaded the dungeon.dat and saved it, the game did not crash or display any error message. The door was simply completely invisible, so I suppose there won't be any problems with this.
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Post by PaulH »

Thats good. I have just made all the alterations I need and am playtesting. I'll release in a couple of hours!
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Post by PaulH »

Still having problems with dragons. They cast really weak fireballs, not even enough to burn a door down
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Post by Trantor »

That happened to me as well. I trained so long there until I could open the door myself with a Fireball...
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Post by $eoub!!! »

Help ! :(

I'm stuck at one of the beginning level.
The one with a dead end with a coin slot. I have a gor coin but doesn't work... Also, go back is impossible, a door is definitively close ?
Past...Pasta ? Pastaga !
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Post by PaulH »

look for a 'switch' on the wall. In different graphics...
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Can I have a tip too?

Post by TyGuy6 »

I loved your dungeon: The Black Flame, until I got stuck on level 3. I can't find anything else and the only ways I see left are the closed gate with a pressure plate and then a teleporter past it, (near the Well) and the two White Lord areas. (one asking for luck and one asking for food for his vanity.

So far, I've been to Town Hall, the Mines, the Well, the teleporter to the Demon, 3 copper coin doors and a gold coin door. I've also touched all the walls I could see, and found a few buttons with hidden items. I'm considering using the ghost wandering technique to find a solution.

Can you give a tip please?
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Post by Trantor »

Go back to the mines. There is quite an obscure thing to do there... You probably closed a pit there. Stand on that closed pit and try something weird (hope this helps).
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Post by PaulH »

Weird = throw maybe?!!
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Post by Trantor »

Not maybe. :wink: It is not weird per se, but a weid place to do it.
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