Maps of Custom Dungeons

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Des
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Maps of Custom Dungeons

Post by Des »

Do people think dungeon designers should make maps available for players who want them? And if so how should they be offered?

Conflux III's protected maps is a nice idea, but I was also thinking that for dungeons not aimed at harderned "pros" perhaps a URL to download a zip file of map images could be included in the readme to give people the option to use them when they get lost or stuck.

Playing unprotected CSBWin dungeons I admit to having a quick peek in CSBuild a few times, but not enough to spoil the game for me. Spoiling the game is the big bugbear I guess, perhaps too many people would succumb to temptation.

RTC dungeons cannot be decompiled so designers don't have the option to "allow peeking" as you can with CSBWin by choosing not to encrypt the dungeon. You can make maps that don't give too much away simply by taking screen shots from the RTC editor. I've done this for Angel's Egg but haven't revealed the URL, though I might....
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Post by andyboy_uk »

For RTC you could ask George to do a "save picture of map" from the editor to make it a touch easier. You could filter out things like triggers, etc and just have dungeon features and monsters.

A
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Post by Lunever »

I personally think all dungeons should come with the text file in such small community - after all, everybody should be able to decide for himself how much spoilers he wants to have, or how long he wants to wait for help if truly stuck.
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Post by copperman »

I like the export map idea. Not so sure about giving the whole game away with the txt files though. Although it did get me thinking. Way back the editor could load RTC files, maybe a switch for designers to enable/disable this ability. I can't see this one arriving but, input added non the less.
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Post by beowuuf »

Players need protected from themsevles sometimes - they will think a puzzle is too tricky rather than take the extra secodn then have the joy of disocvering stuff themselves. Rain couldnt' stop himself trainign in conflux III when he knew where the rareas are.

Designers can include the maps if they wish sicne they have the text file witrh the maps available - don't need to go to the trouble of havign the editor do anythign that then needas an enable/disable
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rain`
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Post by rain` »

beowuuf wrote:Rain couldnt' stop himself trainign in conflux III when he knew where the rareas are.
So true. If Conflux III wasnt protected I probably would have had CSBuild opened in the background the whole time...
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Post by Zyx »

Speaking of which, did you use the maps provided by Gambit, Rain?
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Post by rain` »

I only found up to level 7-8 or so :P but yeah, I used them alot teehehehehe.

NOTE: Also i must add the maps are mmm missing... some things =]
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Des
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Post by Des »

For RTC dungeons, supplying the TXT file is definitely too much help! Map images with no triggers etc. generated from the editor sounds good.

Alteratively, perhaps the designer could use the advanced features of RTC to embed the maps in the dungeon. You could have a scroll for each level and a number of strategically placed "map walls" where you place a scroll in an alcove and the map is displayed on the wall. The map would of course be more helpful than a "magic map" scroll, but not so detailed that it gives too much away. Or perhaps have a single "map room" in the dungeon where the scrolls can be taken...
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Post by beowuuf »

Conflux maps ;- Yes, it's good, cause they are maps, but not complete maps...still surprised around...
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Paul Stevens
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Post by Paul Stevens »

I have never understood why you think you have to
protect me from myself. Like an author of a mystery
that somehow prevents me from reading the last page.
If I spoil the fun for myself then who am I hurting?
Who have I to blame? Who are you to decide how
I can best enjoy your work? I think you are not really
worried about me at all.....you want your secrets to
stay secret for as long as possible and to heck with
what I want.

I can tell you right up front that I have the ConfluxIII
dungeon in an editable format and I would not even
begin to play it without the editor. For me it would be
too frustrating because so much of the dungeon is
quite impossible to understand and seemingly totally
random. Believe me, having ALL the knowledge
available is not sufficient for complete understanding
without a LOT of work. So it seems I can enjoy the
dungeon differently than you can enjoy it. Why make
it impossible for me to enjoy it in my own way?

P.S. By the way, I still believe that nobody, including
Zyx himself, knows all the details of ConfluxIII
the way most of us 'Know' how CSB works. I still
assert that this dungeon is an ongoing, many-person
project. Even with the 'source-code' available. That,
to me, is its most marvelous attribute.
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rain`
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Post by rain` »

We may not know it as well as CSB (Which is embedded into my bloodstream by now), but at least I know exactly how to get 2 corbums out of the mage guild guide before selecting any other heroes. Unfortunately I don't have the slightest clue as to how to pray at the altar in the temple...

Meanwhile, we got to experience CSB for what, 15 years before we had the opportunity to delve into it w/ an editor (Sure, maps were available, but be honest, maps dont help in CSB w/o the actuator details)? The conflux III dungeon is far from protected by any means. You of all people should know this (The source for CSBWin is available, thus if CSBWin can read it, I can read it). Some-day if the urge comes I may spend the 2-3 hours it takes to unlock the dungeon fully and get an unlocked copy. Why would I do this? Because eventually I'm going to want to know what was going on in zyx's brain and study it as we did CSB. There are secrets to be found, and formula's to uncover.


Good thing Im too lazy... for now
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Paul Stevens
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Post by Paul Stevens »

spend the 2-3 hours it takes to unlock the dungeon fully
That's pretty impressive! It would take me weeks to
unlock that dungeon. And I have access to the
un-encrypted DSA source code.
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Post by rain` »

You've already done it! All one has to do is use you're implementation and record the results.

It may not be perfect, but the primitive 'hold a video camera in the movie theater' trick will always work, no matter how much protection exists on the data producing the images. Unless of course you've done something so complex that even I couldn't get ahold of? ^^ I dont' kno at this point, so perhaps my 2-3 hour guess was inaccurate!
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Post by Paul Stevens »

Oh. I thought that by "Unlock ...fully" you meant
"Understand and be able to manipulate to your
advantage". Like "Unlocking the secret of the atom".
You only meant "to make visible".

Your movie camera trick certainly does not Unlock
the secrets of Zyx's DSAs in my interpretation of the
phrase "Unlock fully".
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Post by rain` »

Yeah, even with a unprotected conflux III map file, it'd take months of studying to 'unlock'. Im content with the maps released w/ conflux III (using passwords) though, they helped enough to find the little secrets that help so much. Also helps to mark down the locations of all the shurikens/monk staves/maces/corbums too.
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Post by Gambit37 »

I'm glad the maps have been of use -- they were fun to draw!
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Post by beowuuf »

They are fun to look at too!
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Post by Trantor »

I think the maps are one of the greatest additions to Conflux III over Conflux II. Excellent work Gambit! And excellently embedded in the game too, thanks a lot Zyx.
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Post by thyceult »

Wow Gambit,

So you're the one that designed the maps! I really loved them! I'm an avid fan of D&D and the maps sort of remind me of the stuff I would make for my players. What sort of tools do you use for these kinds of maps or is that a trade secret? I am keen to learn, if you'd have me as a student?

I have to concur with Trantor's observation of Zyx's clever insertion of the map codes in the levels. It makes sure that you've at least suffered somewhat before relenting in the end. Just the level of frustration vs satisfaction that I am looking for. I'd say that regardless of the direction taken, it almost always makes sure you get through 66% of the level firt on your own before being given a helping hand. That is quite a feat to achieve, in my opinion, especially when you have to take into account that there are many, many paths through the level itself!


Jesse
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Post by ian_scho »

And dont forget to sticky a link to the wiki in the CSB section of the forum. :wink:
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Post by Gambit37 »

thyceult wrote:Wow Gambit, so you're the one that designed the maps! I really loved them! I'm an avid fan of D&D and the maps sort of remind me of the stuff I would make for my players. What sort of tools do you use for these kinds of maps or is that a trade secret? I am keen to learn, if you'd have me as a student?
I'm flattered :oops:

No secret -- just all done using PhotoShop (and 15 odd years of experience with that wonderful program).

As for teaching you how -- I'm really sorry but I really don't have the free time for such endeavours. But I could give you some tips if you already know PhotoShop basics?
Des wrote:Alternatively, perhaps the designer could use the advanced features of RTC to embed the maps in the dungeon.
Yeah, I've been experimenting with this and gone one better by using maps on INFO screens which gives you more screen real estate and allows you to make it look like a real scroll for example.
Paul Stevens wrote:P.S. By the way, I still believe that nobody, including Zyx himself, knows all the details of ConfluxIII.
There's no hope for us, is there?
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Post by Paul Stevens »

Gambit wrote:There's no hope for us, is there?
Not as individuals. But there is hope
in store as a sort of "Research Team".

I guess there is a great difference in how
various people like to learn and understand
the game. For example, some may be very
happy upon finding an open door that had
previously been tightly closed. They enter
and proceed with the game. I won't be happy
until I know WHY the door opened. I want
to understand the thing to the point that
I can walk through the dungeon with no
trial-and-error.

Like the place on level 0 (?) in CSB where
you must be carrying a Boulder in order to
open a door. Who, on their own, might
discover THAT trick. There are three other
approaches to the ending and even this
particular ending has alternatives. Things
like that can only be discoved by accident
and it is likely never to be discovered
unless people share their knowledge.
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Post by thyceult »

Gambit37 wrote:I'm flattered :oops:

No secret -- just all done using PhotoShop (and 15 odd years of experience with that wonderful program).

As for teaching you how -- I'm really sorry but I really don't have the free time for such endeavours. But I could give you some tips if you already know PhotoShop basics?
Oh my god!

So much details in your maps and you say that you have no time to teach others? Hahah, just kidding there sensei, just really really impressed by the level of work. Actually, now I'm doubly impressed because it appears that you did it literally using Photoshop and not with any sort of "mapping editor" type of programs out there like Dundjinni or Campaign Cartographer 2 that they use for tabletop RPGs.

Have you heard of those programs before by the way? I've very little to no background in Photoshop sadly, but no worries mate, I'll pick it up over time by studying your work :D

Sometimes, I feel that like a piece of art on the wall, some things are just meant to be marvelled at, and not for one to aspire to become completely. Your artwork for your maps evokes just that sort of response from me (^_^). Keep up the good work!

Well met, Gambit. Till next time?

Paul Stevens wrote: I won't be happy until I know WHY the door opened.
To be honest Paul? Neither would I! It's just that scientist in me that I have to learn about the extra stuff. However, that being said, sometimes therein lies the fun in the mystery of things. The process of discovery is definitely useful, but for some modules as complex as Conflux, I have to concede that it would indeed be life-saving at times to have a knowledge base.

After all, this behemoth of a dungeon may very well likely outgrow each of us as individuals over time if we're not careful... especially since I too, would very much like to contribute to some of the puzzles in Conflux if Zyx will have me :(

Touche,
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Post by Gambit37 »

thyceult wrote:Actually, now I'm doubly impressed because it appears that you did it literally using Photoshop and not with any sort of "mapping editor" type of programs out there like Dundjinni or Campaign Cartographer 2 that they use for tabletop RPGs. Have you heard of those programs before by the way?
I have had a quick look at CC2 but it's far too rigid and isn't really suitable for creating highly stylised, real-world imagery. CC3 looks a lot better though.

Zyx wanted something quite specific, with varying styles for each map to signify where it was found and I couldn't have done that using CC. The only 'cheat' I did was for the official looking maps (Council for example) -- I used a custom drawn tileset for CSBuild, then grabbed a screenshot -- Zyx provided me with a 'clean' dungeon.dat that had removed all the mechnisms and just left the main map areas intact. The other maps were drawn on graph paper and scanned in.

I added some of the atmosphere text and Zyx provided the rest. Some act as clues, or might be misleading. And of course, the maps might not be completely accurate.... ;-)
thyceult wrote:some things are just meant to be marvelled at, and not for one to aspire to become completely.Keep up the good work!
I know what you mean, I'd love to be a better artist (it might help to learn to draw first!) but until then, I appreciate what I can in other's work.
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Post by Mon Ful Ir »

I kind of feel like maps of mine are unnecessary (in that they would be of no help in "solving" the dungeons).

I think running around a maze of featureless corridors looking for the next challenge to solve is extremely dull, so I design in such a way that there's always an obvious challenge ahead of you, and always an easy route back to the earlier ones behind you, if you feel you've missed something. (It helps if you design smaller levels--mine are on a 20x20 grid or a 24x24 grid.)

I also suggest that dungeon designers should try to include the basics--an altar of vi, some kind of source of food, a water fountain and a flask--near the entrance because not being able to find those things is just tiresome.
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Post by Ameena »

Although sometimes the very act of finding something such as a flask can be a puzzle in itself...I think Conflux does exactly that, actually - makes you have to do a bit of work to get your first flask. Not that I ever even got that far but I've heard from other people... ;)
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Des
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Post by Des »

Hmm. well I started this thread....

So here's what I did. The secret URL to the Angel's Egg maps is found on a scroll in The Golden Void. I put it there because the map of level 10 enables you to escape from the Void quickly (otherwise it's a sod). Trouble is you only end up there if it all goes horribly wrong.

So without further ado... http://www.sholing.force9.co.uk/angelmap120.zip

Angel's Egg 1.4 - updated for RTC 0.48 - available at http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=25425
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