Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by linflas »

thousands..
"The only way out is another way in." Try Sukumvit's Labyrinth II
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

Zed5Duke wrote:Look very good, but its like domino: touch one part and everything else fall. When made hi res interface it require also hi res items to fit together, when made hi res wallset, also require better monsters, and finally need to change everything. Its hundreads new pictures.
Yes, that's right. I know. ;)
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

Yes, i know what you mean zed, and the file gets bigger. I just spent half of a day searching deviantart for stuff. Would be nice if a few DM addicts worked on one project to produce a complete dungeon faster, that looks different. I look forward to playing all the dungeons, if i can find the time these days.
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

If I'm ever going to release this, I'm going to have to cut it right down to one small part of the adventure. I've estimated that it would take me at least two years to build the custom adventure I want -- and that's with concentrating on it as if it were a full time job!

So... The only reasonable solution is to make a much smaller custom dungeon. It's most likely I'll focus on the very last part ("Storming Nira Prime"), which is a typical "dungeon" adventure. This does mean that a lot of my nice ideas won't make it in, but I've thought of a few ways I can contrive some of them into it without it seeming too unrealistic :-)
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Lord_BoNes »

I'd be happy to enlighten you to how I've done some of the "cool" things that I've managed to do. I'd like to see this dungeon of yours hit the world as soon as possible. I'd offer to help, but I know that's not an option for you. Anyways, let me know.
 
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

If we'd all pull together, split some of the tasks, we could build a dungeon faster and still string together a couple dungeon levels, with a changing story line. I spent days searching for pictures, weeks working on them.
Each area of dungeon building takes time to get going. I spent a few days just on lighting alone. I'm assuming that nothing is taken seriously because there is not many examples been shown.
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

I'd be happy to work on a custom dungeon with other people, just not this particular one. :-)

I'm not worried about being taken seriously; long term forum members know I'm good at starting things and not finishing them. All I'll say is this: If you can't see something, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist...
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

ok...this is a start. we could have a fresh start. i have an hour everyday that can be put to use. i spend 2 hours a day on it, mostly looking for graphics mind u, heh, i've viewed 10s of thousands of pictures, u know how it is, once you're searching you get carried away. i could barely touch what i have as it is. i need direction to put to use effeciently my time, a goal other than my personal one which was to learn how to do it, heh, two years later i finally see some light. let's work together and see who else is interested. sorry it took me so long to learn how, but i'm ready to throw what ever i have at it, and some. life sometimes slows you down, two family members just passed away this month :( stuff like this slows you down. let me know what u want to do Gambit37.
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

I'm sorry for your family bereavements, things must be hard right now. My thoughts are with you.

About collaboration, I was speaking figuratively; I don't have the time currently to invest in anything new. I get about 1 hour free per week at the moment for personal projects and as my doctor has told me to spend less time on the computer, I shouldn't even be here right now...

Sorry if my comment was confusing. I meant "in principle, I would collaborate with others". In practice, that's not possible for me right now.
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

oh i'm sorry, i must have read u wrong,but collaboration is a start too, heh
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

I had a lot of fun recently playing Sophia's Surgical Strike and it reminded me how good games can be without needing fancy graphics. It's made me wonder about how important it is to actually invest all this time in making high-res graphics for Bloodbane Rising.

It's been a long term goal of mine to build a (higher) res custom adventure but it's clear this is simply a huge, huge task. And there's also a certain charm about the original blocky graphics that still seems to suit these games well. Maybe that's just me being nostalgic. Whatever...

Would you prefer a high-res game in a few years time, or a low res game in half that time?
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by beowuuf »

Both. Think of monkey island! It's being released to look all sexy and shiny now, but the gameplay was the core of the thing. So I think you should release a game with your ideas now, and if you find yourself still so compelled, you can slowly build up the artwork over the next few years so that then you can re-release the package again and generate more interest, with spanky graphics :D

Some of the most fun dungeons use the same graphics, or the occasional new graphic, and it always comes down to the feel of the thing. Hi res graphics add alot, but they fall flat if they aren't supported by a good game, and a good game conversely can stand on it's own feet with the basic graphics

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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

True, that Monkey Island remake looks cool with the new look, but the old version still looks great too. Maybe that's only because we grew up with low res games and so feel nostalgic about them. But since I'm only building this game for people nostalgic for the old school vibe, I think it might make more sense to go with that look / feel.

You're right that great games don't need great graphics. I should have just started on the dungeon and used DM assets. Well, if I make the decision to go "low res", there's plenty of games out there I can plagiarise, er, I mean 'honour'. The downside is that if I use stuff from other games, it's all been seen before and I wanted to give BR it's own identity. But you're right, that could come in time...

One benefit of low res (320x240) is that pixels are doubled in RTC so they compress better which means a smaller download too... I also have the benefit that stuff I've designed already can be down-sampled to the lower res, then upgraded later with no effort. :-)

Still experimenting with avatars... want something low res old school! :-)
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Lord_BoNes »

I'd have to agree to Beo here...
A low-res version in a few weeks, or a high-res version in a few years... I have to say that both ways is the better choice. Games nowadays just don't really focus on gameplay, they rely on "spanky" graphics, and overall the game sells for a week and then noone else buys it, and the flops.
Oldschool gameplay (low or high res) generally plays a whole lot better. I own Terminator Salvation, Redalert 3, C&C 3 (with expansion), Sacred 2, Unreal Tournament 3... etc. yet I mostly play RTC and Warcraft III. Graphics are far from everything.

Well, there's my 60 second rant. LOL :P
 
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

Within a few weeks? Ha ha, that still ain't gonna happen, even in low res! Nice try :-)
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Lord_BoNes »

LOL. I believe that my point was conveyed :P
BTW, I like the skeleton avatar. Low-res or not, he's a good skeleton.
 
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by PadTheMad »

Seconded Beo's comment, said exactly what I was thinking. Coincidentally, I've recently just finished Linflas' Sukumvit's Labyrinth and the mix of DM2 GFX and materials from other sources made it feel familiar yet fresh. To be honest, it's the level design and storytelling that makes a good game for me, pretty graphics are just a nice luxury :)
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by ian_scho »

Gambit37 wrote:Would you prefer a high-res game in a few years time, or a low res game in half that time?
Whatever YOU enjoy doing!!! :)

Edit: I'm going for a low res game to be released in a few years time :!:
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Jan »

Gambit37 wrote:Would you prefer a high-res game in a few years time, or a low res game in half that time?
The SECOND one, the SECOND one! I vote for the SECOND option!

I have to confess I just do love the old "grey-blocks" DM graphics - it's simple, makes a good atmosphere, has no glitches (OK, almost no) - and, what's important, it's "non-invasive" - enables you to concentrate on the game itself, on the puzzles and so on. It's like the music in films - the best music is that you don't notice, you don't have to think about.
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Zyx »

As Beo said, focusing on the gameplay first would allow you to develop your game in two steps, which is more manageable and rewarding. I would vote for low res, then maybe high res if you still are motivated.
By the way, I would never have started conflux with a "release only when complete" logic. Dividing the task into smaller steps helps a lot.
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

I hear you all :-)

I have a strange problem when I come to personal projects: I start things that are way too big and am such a perfectionist that 'good enough' is never good enough! It's even stranger that In my professional development life I subscribe to the "release early, release often" mantra and yet have never applied this to personal work. Weird.

Anyway, I shall have to think about this. Some issues strike me:

1) I have created a lot of high res stuff already, it seems a shame not to use it

2) Some of the key parts of the game require special graphics prepared for certain effects. Since these need to be created anyway, it makes sense to do them at high-res first

3a) I considered mixing and matching high and low res and experimented a bit but it looks, well, very weird. There's a mismatch in RTC with this problem already. Look what happens to wallitems when they are scaled in the distance (an alcove for example) -- they look much cleaner and higher res than the walls themselves and look out of place.

3b) It might be possible to mix/match in a way that works -- low res for everything in the player viewport but high res for the interface.

4) Even if I go low-res, I would still need new wallsets. I'm really not too keen on using the original DM walls as they've been overused and even the DM2 walls aren't right for this project.

5) Low res versions of the monsters I've created (from lead miniature photography) just look an awful mess unless you also then clean them up with pixel painting. This is so time consuming that low res would almost certainly mean using creatures from other games -- which takes away a lot of the uniqueness I was going for.

But yes, in principle, doing the gameplay is more important. Now, I have to work out how to get bits and pieces of hundreds of test dungeons into one big file... that's a job and half in itself!
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by ChristopheF »

In my professional development life I subscribe to the "release early, release often" mantra and yet have never applied this to personal work.
Does that mean that we need to hire you if we want to see the DM Codex come to life someday? :) Let's start collecting donations!
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

As I noted elsewhere on the forum "If one cannot see something, it does not mean that it doesn't exist." Progress has been made, but incentives might speed things up..... ;-)

One might consider DM Codex as the Duke Nukem Forever of fan websites; one of the reasons for the delay is copious "engine" changes. However, going bust and failing to release anything at all is not an option. :)
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Trantor »

Low res all the way. The gameplay is by far the most important aspect. Sure, new graphics look nice and shiny and are cool and all that, but after a few minutes, their charm wears off. Graphics can help to evoke a certain feeling and atmosphere, but ultimately, it's the ideas, the concept, the plot, the gameplay and the level design that are most important. I'd even say that sounds and music are more important for atmosphere than graphics, as they do not wear off as quickly. I do seem to be in the minority with this opinion, though, as I mostly received negative feedback towards my plans of using full background music in my custom dungeon.

Regarding the difference between hi res and low res graphics, I wouldn't worry too much. Both together might look weird, but honestly, who cares? When I play a custom dungeon here, I do so with full knowledge that it is an amateur project done by someone in his/her freetime. I don't expect everything to be perfect and I appreciate everything that is new, even if it doesn't blend in perfectly. If you want to go back to it later, polish everything up and do some tweaks here or there, that's perfectly fine as well of course.

It's also funny that I seem to tick very similar to you - in my job, I always am like "we don't have time and/or money to fix it, and it's not THAT bad, so let's just release it", but I'm a perfectionist with my personal stuff. I forced myself a long time ago to shed off some perfectionism, and it did me good I think...

Just my two cents.
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

Trantor wrote:Graphics can help to evoke a certain feeling and atmosphere
Exactly the main reason I wanted to try something different. I wanted to move away from the cartoony feel of the original game and make it a bit more realistic. Having said that, I keep looking at all the wonderful low res pixellated monsters from days gone by and I still think some of them look wonderful.
Trantor wrote:I'd even say that sounds and music are more important for atmosphere than graphics, as they do not wear off as quickly. I do seem to be in the minority with this opinion, though, as I mostly received negative feedback towards my plans of using full background music in my custom dungeon.
I think music is a tough one to get right. If it's playing all the time and is in your face, it gets annoying. But subtle ambient stuff that's not too over the top can be great. I think ambience is more important than music though, hence I have a several GB of ambient sounds ripped from games of the last 10 years or so... all waiting to be utilised... ;-)
Trantor wrote:Regarding the difference between hi res and low res graphics, I wouldn't worry too much. Both together might look weird, but honestly, who cares?
Well, I care obviously or I wouldn't keep on at this! I'm a visual person, I like cool looking stuff and wanted to see if I couold make something that brought the DM experience a little more up-to-date.
Trantor wrote: If you want to go back to it later, polish everything up and do some tweaks here or there, that's perfectly fine as well of course.
Its' an option I'm still musing....
Trantor wrote:I forced myself a long time ago to shed off some perfectionism, and it did me good I think...
Agreed. Oddly, I'm much less of a perfectionist than I used to be, if you can believe that! :shock: :shock:
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Trantor »

Gambit37 wrote:
Trantor wrote:Regarding the difference between hi res and low res graphics, I wouldn't worry too much. Both together might look weird, but honestly, who cares?
Well, I care obviously or I wouldn't keep on at this! I'm a visual person, I like cool looking stuff and wanted to see if I couold make something that brought the DM experience a little more up-to-date.
I knew exactly you would say that. :P I only wanted to emphasize that I'm more than willing to look past this graphical weirdness. Maybe I don't even want something that's totally different from DM, as that would somehow hamper the feeling of nostalgia. When I play a custom dungeon, I still consider it "playing DM" instead of, let's say, "playing Surgical Strike" or "playing Conflux". I guess I'm just stuck in a weird world of nostalgia and the desire to play something new...
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Jan »

Trantor wrote: I guess I'm just stuck in a weird world of nostalgia and the desire to play something new...
We all are. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. :)
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

I just realised that some of you might misunderstand what I mean by high res and low res. It's a bit misleading. I'm not just talking about the resolution of the images, but the whole stylistic approach. Here's a comparison to give you an idea of what I mean:

I think you can see how the whole mood and atmosphere is completely changed when going from pixel art to photo-realistic. Which do you prefer?

Image

[Note that this scene is a quick and dirty example and won't appear in Bloodbane!]
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Jan »

Sorry to say that, but I sort of... prefer the first (low-res) one... :roll:

That monkey is so cute... The second monkey looks like flying in the air, and it doesn't fit the background fully, I'm afraid, and the grass and vegetation around is too big when compared to the ape (but as you pointed out, it's quick and dirty and so on, I know, I know, but still...). Simply, I like the first one! The second one is "indifferent", I just don't think anything about it, it doesn't evoke any feelings in me...

But maybe I'm misled by nostalgia, as Trantor said...
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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser

Post by Gambit37 »

Perhaps this is a bad example -- neither of these are intended to be "polished" (neither of them have been designed to correctly fit the dungeon view). It's merely a style thing, showing the difference between pixel art and photo-realism. Though maybe I should have actually made the second one look like the gorilla is really standing there... oh well. Foot. Gun. Ow! ;-)

Actually, I really like the pixel art in this example too... but that's only 'cos the gorilla is cute :-)
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