I'm too nice to clients

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Gambit37
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I'm too nice to clients

Post by Gambit37 »

I HAVE TO RANT.

Clients are taking advantage of my good nature and trying to screw me into the ground by getting as much out of me for free as the possibly can.

I've had enough and I'm putting my foot down. What's wrong with people? I'm trying to run a business, I'm not a bloody charity!

Bloody tossers!
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cowsmanaut
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by cowsmanaut »

I know how that is. It's the same the world round. The wonderful bit is where they are really nice about it, and always nice to you. Yet you get the distinct impression that your bum is beginning to hurt :/

The idea I guess is to politely let them know that you are struggling to pay rent as it is so you really can not cut deals or take extra weeks without pay. You're not a big business, your are an individual. They should remember that.
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beowuuf
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by beowuuf »

Yeah, it's the way of the world to try to drive the price as far down as possible, and get the time and quality way up - even if it means you are trying to pay very little for alot.

If they don't have you over a barrel of you trying to get their business and you competing with someone else, then I guess stick to your guns, be firm but polite and say no when they try to ask for any consessions, and don't be afraid to charge for even the smallest service - or at least say you will.

If you feel bad, you can always refund or charge less after the fact, but you have less ground if you try and ramp up the charges after saying a follow up service would be free.

Also, don't rule out firebombing.
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cowsmanaut
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by cowsmanaut »

this oddly enough, reminds me of a saying "theres Cheap, fast and good, and you can only pick two" So you can have fast and cheap, but it won't be good, you can have fast and good, but it won't be cheap, or you can have cheap and good but it won't be fast :P
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beowuuf
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by beowuuf »

Exactly!

Yet no-one remembers that or is allowed to factor it in when they are pushing for orders...
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zoom
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by zoom »

Maybe I should say something. I read in a forum (german speaking only) about how much artists should charge and this is what I remember- maybe you should google about how others do the webtrade and what they experienced and how they overcome difficulties that arise(and continue to ).
......................
You should know how long a task roughly will take you. Then you can plan.
You should know how much others charge per hour, how much you deem yourself worth, or per completion of a task.(in the webdevelopment Industry (-->standards)).
Depending on your level of expertise you can charge at the upper or the lower rim of that scale.
Charge extra stuff, and tell the client.
Settle things like payment and details in advance.
Get yourself off the maintenance.. or charge accordingly.. its work you have to like, because it is unforeseeable service ? Depends.

You charge less or do extra work for free for good, long-term long known clients.
I.e. clients you trust and have had good experience with. precious client. Not so much surveillance, will be mostly pleased etc.

(a client that rips you off does not induce a good feeling at your side plus won´t visit again. One time shot and not a good feeling at the clients side either.)

hope this helps and good luck !
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Gambit37
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by Gambit37 »

Yep, cheers guys, I'm doing as much of all those suggestions as possible. I'm very assertive these days, I say 'No' a lot and I've had a few difficult conversations with clients and I charge extra where appropriate. I've even used the "Here's three factors, pick two" argument quite a lot recently (with a smile on my face, of course). It's in my contact that they get X revisions for the price and that beyond this it's chargeable -- and yet they *still* express surprise when I give them an increased bill.

One client even took "extreme exception" to the fact I was charging him for phone calls, phone calls that were essential to completion of the project and are therefore a project cost, and conveniently ignored the fact that I charge half of what his other suppliers charge (who "don't charge for phonecalls"). They do bloody charge for phone calls you muppet, they simply have a much higher daily rate! I stay competitive by having a lower daily rate.

I think part of the problem is that some people can't understand the value that good people bring to a project, and that that value costs money. "What do you mean I can't get a website for £200?"

Go away you cheap twat.
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sucinum
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by sucinum »

Gambit37 wrote:I think part of the problem is that some people can't understand the value that good people bring to a project, and that that value costs money. "What do you mean I can't get a website for £200?"

Go away you cheap twat.
To be honest, i sold websites cheaper before. That is pure html/css (php only for my convenience) without longer written texts (maybe a short welcome note or something) or a single graphic (may have some round borders here and there to make it look modern and i include everything i'm given). Also doesn't include further support or offsite-SEO (HTML part is very clean and structured). Costs me 5-6 hours of work with a template. Could be even quicker if i used some CMS and had experience creating templates for it.

But i'm not too sure if that is the level you want to compete with as real artist.
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Gambit37
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by Gambit37 »

I work on bespoke solutions with a user centred design approach. I have done heavily template stuff in the past, but that's not my interest these days.

I'm more interested in running a project from start to end and delivering a website to a client that achieves their objectives. A full web design process looks something like this:

http://www.utexas.edu/learn/designprocess/

Can't build a site for £200 to that process. Can't even do the Box 1, "Project Definition" for £200... :-)

Sure, I still do small projects here and there, but I'd rather work on fewer, higher value projects.
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sucinum
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by sucinum »

No comparison of course. I have worked on a typo3 website of a local university: planning and setting up useful structures for users and site layout, browsing for and setting up external modifications, including lots of old content and instructing the staff in using it. That is total different stuff ofc. And i didn't even there touch a gfx program a single time, that is yet another different thing. Do you also do SEO? That is another science itself.
Being a complete webdesigner is an awesome achievement, when i said real artist, i meant it.

I'm afraid i can't really help you in selling it. Some good references can't hurt, but that isn't everything. In the end, you have to sell yourself. Do you have a nice bureau with an expensive (looking) desk, comfortable chairs and ofc an impressing PC (dual 24" monitors or something else normal pc users dont have)? Also dressing well is important, a suit and a good watch help a lot in making a good impression and making people trust you. Banks use that trick ;)
Maybe you have known that already, but if you didn't learn a business/merchant job, it might help to grab some basics there.
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Gambit37
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by Gambit37 »

I work in a dark back room in my underpants :P

I'm actually running my business from my second bedroom, which is an office, and I'm using an old, underpowered PC to do it. I don't have clients at my home, in fact most clients I never meet, it's all done by email or Skype. I would prefer to meet more clients though, it's better. When I do have meetings, I either go to their premises or meet in a coffee shop.

At least with the money that's finally beginning to come in, I will be able to buy some serious upgrades, including the two 24" monitors you mentioned... :D
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Sophia
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by Sophia »

Gambit37 wrote:One client even took "extreme exception" to the fact I was charging him for phone calls, phone calls that were essential to completion of the project and are therefore a project cost, and conveniently ignored the fact that I charge half of what his other suppliers charge (who "don't charge for phonecalls"). They do bloody charge for phone calls you muppet, they simply have a much higher daily rate! I stay competitive by having a lower daily rate.
I think there is a certain psychology in play here, because this is a problem in a lot of businesses. Obviously you want to offer a good deal, to stay competitive, but a lot of people don't like the feeling of being "nickel and dimed," and will-- counterintuitively, but humans are not logical-- happily pay more if they're presented with an overall package deal, rather than feeling like they're being charged for every single time they even contemplate breathing.
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zoom
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by zoom »

So Gambit should tell the clients, phone calls are free (psychological bait) and charge more?
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Gambit37
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Re: I'm too nice to clients

Post by Gambit37 »

zoom wrote:So Gambit should tell the clients, phone calls are free (psychological bait) and charge more?
Yes, indeed, I've been thinking this for some time, and several other people have told me I should raise my rates. :-)
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