Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

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Gambit37
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Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

I desparately need to buy a new PC to run my business on as my current one is ancient and holding me back.

However, I can't decide on the best course of action:

1) Buy a cheap and cheerful temporary desktop replacement to get me back up to speed. Consider it a write off that will be replaced within a year or so.
2) Go all out and buy a super-duper new state-of-the-art desktop that will last 4 years or so (and can also act as a gaming machine.)
3) Ignore a desktop and get a laptop (either basic or state of the art, I'm not sure).

The main issue for me is to save money in the short term but improve my working performance, so #1 seems good for now, but it's also possibly a waste of cash, as cheap machines are sort of crippled a bit due to older processors and less RAM. (I'm thinking of the Dell Inspiron £469 model with Core 2 Duo, not the more expensive Quad Core models) But even those will be much faster than what I'm currently using.

I also need to consider the price of new software -- I'm running a really outdated version of Adobe Creative Suite which doesn't cut it any more. The full suite of tools I'd like to purchase is around £1700!!!!

What would you do in this situation?
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Roquen »

Another big question is tax implications.

Also avoid Intel graphics cards like the plague.
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

Tax implications? I don't understand what you mean.

Good tip about Intel integrated graphics though. I think whatever I go with, it's best to get a standalone card that can output to two monitors as that's something else that I severely need too. Trying to do web development on 1 small screen is not fun!
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Roquen »

The machine is a business expense, so I'd expect in the UK you can "write off" of the cost of the machine against your taxes.
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

Yep, indeed. :-)

I've found the monitor I want. It's perfect for solving my problem of neck ache as it's one of the few with a very high vertical adjustment AND also portrait tilt -- at a low price. It's brand new though, so no-one is selling it yet! Imagine two of these babies side by side :)
http://benq.co.uk/products/LCD/index.cfm/product/1174

This desktop machine is quite nice. http://www.palicomp.co.uk/pc-base-units ... d_211.html

Not state of the art at all, but the Coolermaster Silent case is a big plus (my current machine makes a bloody racket) and it has plenty of scope for upgrading in the future. For graphics output, it comes with an older onboard GeForce 8200. Specs show this would be adequate for the graphics work I want to do, but it doesn't seem to have dual output (only one VGA port?) -- no good for multiple monitors. So I'd probably need to shove a better card in there. And this machine only has 4GB RAM which I'd expand to 8GB; no point crippling yourself from the start.

Looks like I'm erring more towards option #2 now -- if I'm going to start upgrading a base machine like this, I might as well go the whole hog and get something properly powerful; budget permitting of course!
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by zoom »

have you an opinion on i cores? or netbooks?
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by sucinum »

Buying state-of-the-art is never the best option, if anything, buy the 2nd best. That is what I did some weeks ago and spent some 800 bucks on a AMD 965 BE CPU, Gigabyte board, ATI 5770 GPU, 4 GB RAM (no point in 8 GB for gaming), Win 7 pro, 1 TB Samsung HDD and a nice tower with good cooling (ANTEC 300). In desktop use, this one is nearly unhearable, because modern GPUs have a 2D mode and the CPU also regulates the fan according to the needs. When running at full power, it's still ok - not as loud as my old P4, but surely hearable. You could easily spend twice or more of that for a barely faster PC.

A laptop might be nice for presentations or as secondary machine, there will soon be nice weather and you can work outside, but i wouldn't use one as main working computer. The small keyboard and display quickly get annoying and many laptops get really noisy and hot when you run them at full power.
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Roquen »

The reason I brought up tax write-off is because you might want to try sketching out a plan. For example I typically work on a 4-5 year plan, since durables like computers can be written off over a two year period, while the rest of my stuff is written off the year of the expense (notable software here). So I plan on buying a computer in year-1 and a notebook in year 3 and want both of these to be reasonable for my needed usage for a 5 year period. The planned extra year is padding for any other big expenses.

I agree with sucinum. Top of the line is never worthwhile. It seems like the best "bang for your buck" is always in the high end of the mid-range to the low end of the top-range. An important thing that many people forget to think about when choosing is the speed of the "front-side bus". Chances are that you will be more memory access bound that computation bound (but YMMV). Along the same lines, fast drives are worthwhile. Better to have a slightly smaller main hard drive and some external storage than a larger & slower main drive IHMO.
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

After spending quite a bit of time looking at options, I've decided to build my own desktop. I didn't really like any of the offered solutions from pre-built suppliers. Obviously this will be more expensive, but I can get something pretty nice for around £1K which is my top budget -- this includes budgeting for 2 decent work monitors (I'm looking at these new BenQ screens) and of course having to buy the operating system (Win 7 Pro).

@Roquen: Good call about external storage. Sometime this year I'll be getting office space and the desktop machine will move there. I'll also be buying a new home computer too, so it makes sense to have all my documents and projects on an external drive that I can move around. I'm thinking of initially having a 250GB fixed internal drive in the desktop and either a 500GB or 1TB external drive. Any thoughts on that setup? (This external drive looks pretty good: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Seagate-FreeAge ... 001EASPZW/) I don't know if the speed of a USB2 external drive is something to consider -- with eSata external drives now available and USB 3.0 filtering through???

Also Roquen, I'm not into all the tech speak, so regarding your mention of front-side bus speeds, would this motherboard, cpu and memory be OK?

Asus M4A785TD-V (Socket AM3) DDR3 (with onboard ATI Radeon 4200)
AMD Phenom II X4 Quad Core 955 3.20GHz
Corsair 4GB (2X2GB) DDR3 PC3-10666C9 1333MHz Dual Channel

For work purposes, the onboard Radeon 4200 will be fine and it supports dual monitor output, although one is on an analogue VGA port. And in the short term while I have this machine at home, it will be perfectly fine for playing some newer games at reasonable frame rates/detail settings. (I'd love to try out some new games, haven't played anything for new for years, but I doubt I will get the time anyway!)

I'm wondering if the Quad Core chip is overkill (for doing mostly 2D graphics work and other web development.) I could save some money by getting a Dual Core chip -- is that worth the saving, or should I get the fastest chip I can afford in my budget?

UPDATE: Hmmm, interesting -- looks like it might be possible (with this mother board) to buy a Dual Core X2 and try unlocking the disable cores!
http://www.overclock.net/amd-cpus/53550 ... guide.html
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by cowsmanaut »

I don't know about your neck of the woods, but many of the local computer stores which sell parts for builds will also have OEM versions of the software for sale, you save some cash and the only requirement you have to get OEM is to have purchased a bit of computer hardware.. like a CPU or even a Hard Drive.. Might be worth looking into. I did that myself when I built my PC a few months back. I looked around at builds I liked and then hunted the web and stores for the parts at reasonable prices. Got my vid card at http://www.newegg.com/ and other parts at some local places. I also made sure to look up reviews online for the parts and the reason I went to look for builds is because many places will test their builds for stability.. You'll also find reviews of tech on youtube where they show the parts and talk about them..
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

Sadly there are no decent computer shops near me, it would be a trek up into town. It's easier to get the parts online :)
The OEM software point is a good one: I looked into that and even Amazon have OEM versions of Windows 7, saving around a third on the price! I certainly don't need no box or tech support, so I'm definitely going down that route.

It's been 8 years since I built a PC; looking forward to it! Now, I just wish the BenQ monitors would hurry up and arrive in the UK!
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by beowuuf »

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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

Indeed :) I have a basket full of stuff on there, just need to press "Checkout" but keep finding alternate components then going off on 2 hour "further research" surfs...!
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

Ah well, I couldn't waste anymore time on research and I've bought what was in my basket. This should make a reasonable work machine for now:

Corsair 4GB (2X2GB) DDR3 PC3-10666C9 1333MHz Dual Channel Kit (CMV4GX3M2A1333C9) £84.25
Asus M4A785TD-V Evo AMD 785G (Socket AM3) DDR3 Motherboard £63.82
AMD Phenom II X2 Dual Core 550 3.10GHz Black Edition (Socket AM3) - Retail £62.97
Antec Sonata Elite Case - Black £62.12
Cooler Master Silent Pro Modular 500W Power Supply £57.01
Western Digital Caviar Blue 320GB SATA-II 16MB Cache - OEM (WD3200AAKS) £33.18 (x2)
Zalman CNPS10X-Quiet CPU Cooler (754/939/940/AM2/AM2+/AM3/775/1156/1366) £29.78
LG GH22LS50 22x DVD±RW SATA ReWriter Lightscribe Drive - Retail £17.86
Akasa AK-191-BL Blue Ultra Quiet 120mm Fan - 3 Pin £4.99
Akasa Serial ATA 45cm DAYGLO Blue Data Cable £2.99

Note that the above prices are without VAT, which is another £80 -- with the delivery charge, it's around £550.

I've also ordered Win 7 and a mouse and keyboard which was £125.

Now I just need to get a screen. I can't decided whether to go for two cheaper "general use" monitors (the screen realestate is a massive boon to web development) or to start with a more expensive better quality "professional designer's" monitor. I think it might be better to pay more for a single better quality monitor such as this Eizo (http://www.nativedigital.co.uk/shop/pro ... en---black).... because I can always use my current Philiips 1280x1024 as a temporary secondary monitor.

I need to wait on the monitor front though: the BenQ F2410T I mentioned above looks really nice but no-one has reviewed it yet and it's not yet listed for sale anywhere, although it went on sale on May 1st apparently... I hope it's released soon so that I can make the judgment, otherwise I'll cave in and buy the Eizo!
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by cowsmanaut »

Dell have often had their 1 day deals or 1 week deals etc.. http://www1.euro.dell.com/uk/en/home/en ... redirect=1 and have a lot of good monitors. Just remember to check out reviews for things like colour and crush.. most of them have a decent response rate these days so refresh is less of an issue.

http://www.redflagdeals.com/ is a canadian site that has people who happen upon these amazing deals that we never seem to notice and the posts them for us to take advantage. Perhaps you can find a UK version?
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

Yeah, I've been reading loads of monitor reviews over the last week (and I mean loads, probably 30 models or so and multiple reviews of each). The problem is they are all so variable. You'll get ten people saying that such and such monitor is great, buy it now! and then another 5 people says it's junk. I read two really positive reviews of the Dell Ultrasharp 2410, but then if you dig a bit deeper you find out it's a completely dud product with awful colour cast problems.

It's virtually impossible to find consistent reviews for the lower end screens, that's why I think it's better to pay more for the next step up in quality, such as an Eizo or Nec. But then, I've even found mixed reviews of those too!

*Sigh* There's simply too much choice!
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by zoom »

what if you go into a shop and see it in real, then buy it via online services?
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

There's no computer shops near me that have the kind of screens I'm looking for: it's all cheap mainstream rubbish. Plus I've never had a good experience in a shop when buying screens: they never give you the information you need and half them time won't setup a boxed screen if you ask. I've always found it to be a waste of time. Of course, so can buying online, but hopefully you know what I mean ;-)
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by zoom »

yes, I see. (thought you lived in London?)
An added plus of online purchase is, you can send the goods back in a 2 week or even 4 week period, at least over here. If you´d want that.
dunno how returning goods if you do not like them is handled in GB .
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

congrats on your new machine Gambit37 :) It took me a couple months to build mine, so i know how you feel about decisions. i wish i had of caught you earlier, i do believe you need a little more power if you want to use more than one video card. you might have wanted to get the 850 watt power supply. so when do you get your machine?
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

@Zoom: I'm outside London and it would be reasonably easy to find a computer shop in town, but I'm lazy and prefer to do all this online ;-)

@Chaos-shaman: I debated about a fast processor and more up-to-date motherboard, but at the end of the day, the extra expense wasn't worth it. This is primarily a work machine and I WON'T be upgrading it to use two graphics cards, it's not necessary. The onboard ATI chip is fine, and because it's onboard, I need much less cooling and power -- hence only going for a 500W PSU. In fact, I can probably get away with a 400W PSU. Whatever I build is going to be so much faster than my current machine, it doesn't really matter too much what processor I put in it. To be honest, getting the right monitor is more important, and I also need to invest money in a new version of Adobe Creative Suite so I can't spend everything on the hardware.

If I ever decide on a super gaming rig, I'll build that from scratch so that it's fit for that purpose. Which means going through this whole exercise again, but with higher spec components :)

The parts for the new machine should arrive tomorrow. I can build it on saturday. The problem is that I still haven't decided on a screen, so it will be pretty useless until I get that sorted! ;)
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

led is still new. if the cost is too high, like above $300 US, you may just want to get just one monitor for now, and use your old one too. as for the integrated video card. i have never had much luck with ATI components. they may have improved themselves somewhat to be comparable to the gforce archetecture. i hope it all goes together nicely without any snags.
i had much the same decision troubles as you did. but since my son wanted a gaming machine, i went with the gaming machine that really cost a bundle $2900. CAN, but i should not need a new one for 5 years "hopefully" you are right about the monitor. 16:9 really gives the extra space while working on graphics. i've done more with the graphics ever since i got a new one, just made it all the more easy. windows 7 helps out alot in that area as well.
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by sucinum »

Gambit37 wrote:The onboard ATI chip is fine, and because it's onboard, I need much less cooling and power -- hence only going for a 500W PSU. In fact, I can probably get away with a 400W PSU.
You can surely get away with 400W, maybe even with less. I have a 450W PS and can't exhaust it above 80%, so it's always running at its finest - and that's with a real GPU and a quad core. Still paid 80 bucks for it, because if there's one thing which shouldn't break, it's the power supply.
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

Woohoo, all the parts turned up. The case is lovely, a glossy black. I'm a bit concerned though -- the CPU heatsink and fan combo is so bloody huge I don't think it's going to fit in the case!!!

I'm really looking forward to setting this up. I went for as many "silent" parts as possible so it will be great to finally get a quiet office. My current PC makes a right old bloody racket!
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

Aw, cock it. It looks like this CPU cooler/fan I bought isn't going to work. It's the wrong orientation so it would be blowing warm air into the PSU instead of out the back of the computer. Really annoyed now :(
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Jan »

Aww. :( I wanted to say "congratulations" after reading your first message, but this is really d'oh! :(

Is it the cooler for £29.78 you wrote above? It's not that cheap. :( But perhaps it's possible to exchange it for the right one somehow?

Anyway, congratulations for buying the rest of the things. :D
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

Yeah, this is the cooler I bought: Zalman CNPS10X-Quiet

But it turns out I'd need something like this, which is rotated 90 degrees on it's mounting: Zalman CNPS9900-NT

This isn't noted anywhere in the documentation and it appears to be a big problem with AM3 socketed boards / cooler combos. At least now I know what to look for. A real shame: I can't build this until next week now and I was really excited to get it up and running this weekend. Waaah! :( :(
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

Hmmm, I just discovered something interesting:

http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/produc ... kama-angle

This suggests that having a fan blowing up towards the PSU fan is actually a good thing! Everything else I've read suggests you should be having the CPU fan blowing towards the rear case fan. Perhaps I can use my purchase after all ! Does anyone know anything about this stuff and can advise? I asked on the Overlcockers forum but no answer yet.

Cheers :)
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

sorry gambit37, i don't have any answers that would help you there. i personaly skipped by the fan, used liquid cooling, which is not much more quiet since the pump also makes noise,not as much, but still noise just the same. take your time gambit37.
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Re: Need a new PC, but not sure of best option

Post by Gambit37 »

No problem. Two people on the OC forums said it didn't make a lot of difference and I could mount it rotated. I'd love to just go ahead and do this, but I'm a bit wary of doing something that is different from what I've seen in *every* picture of a PC build that I've seen recently.
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