Removal of cloning

Custom dungeons for DM/CSB/DM2 on PC, Amiga, Atari ST and any other platforms.
Forum rules
Please read the Forum rules and policies before posting.
Post Reply
User avatar
beowuuf
Archmastiff
Posts: 20687
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 2:00 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK

Removal of cloning

Post by beowuuf »

The removal of cloning from DM (applicable for convertign dungeons to CSB4win or RTC):

In the interests of removing this practise, here is a list of reasons to do it. I've deleted whether I think the problem is solved or not)
Anything I have forgotten? Do designers think these aren't important, or are solved for their prefered platforms?

a) Saving objects to circumvent object counts
b) multiple tile functions

- teleporters affecting objects differently, or having alternate destinations
- teleporters in strange places (pits, alcoves/wall objects, doors etc)

c) activating wall/floor objects despite limitations

- opening different texts/objects on the same tile
- activating text/wall object while not triggering teleporter/pit/fake wall
- activating the same trigger on multiple levels

d) placing items in strange ways

- objects chested into chests/monsters in real time
- objects shared between levels (omni-present alcove for storage)

e) spell effects generated for looks (poison clouds and explosions that don't damage)

f) Creating a local effect on monster death

- Monster 'dropping' a teleporter or monster damage tile (cloned door)
- spell effect (as e) )

g) misc mechanics (individual cases)

- destroying something innactive using spells.
The spell passing over a cloned tile is teleported to the original tile with monsters (the clones list starts after those creatures). So the spell still appears to explode at the object/ wall/pit, but is actually damaging the monsters - monster death, through loss or dropped objects, can then generate an effect.


Other bugs used as features:

1) Unused tile type - created invisible floor area
2) Large monsters given small creature positions for invisibility
3) NPC - if you check a party mirror without selecting, then later ressurect a set of party bones for that position then a 'ghost' is created with the name - you cannot access their inventory unless you properly that that champion later or over-write the position

Things cloning can't do:

Do a) for parties
Do complex monster things without threatening the engine stability
Was unable to (permenantly) kill off ian_scho (Haynuus), Ameena, oh_brother (Westian), money (Falkor), raixel (Petal) and Lord_Bones (Aurek) in the DM D&D game Time's Champions!

CONGRATULATIONS TO THOSE WHO MADE THE GAME WHAT IT WAS - GREAT!
User avatar
PicturesInTheDark
Arch Master
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:47 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by PicturesInTheDark »

Impressive list. Just out of curiosity, how did you learn all that? Results from making your own dungeon and looking at the effects? Or is it to be found in the code?

And: How to avoid it? Check with the list each time you build something in a new dungeon? I'm asking out of practical reasons, because I think I would not notice what the problem was for example with non-damaging clouds if I had not read your post.

Regards, PitD
User avatar
beowuuf
Archmastiff
Posts: 20687
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 2:00 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK

Post by beowuuf »

Either self-inflicted, because i have many ideas, just never the dungeons to show for them, or from seeing genius ideas like the live monster chesting from zyx : )
Some of the above are demonstrated in the team dungeon, and mildew was a big one for cloning effects for both count and mechanics

This list was to make sure, from Paul/GEorge, or others who have requested fixes for these exact work arounds, that these effects could be done without resorting to tricks in the various platforms (CSB4win, RTC and DMJ), or weren't important. It also to highlight where conversion problems are coming from in converting dungeons to RTC or CSB4win for peopel like yourself who have tried it
So as you say, you wouldn't have realised that a non-damaging spell effect is the result of a cloned tile between the graphic tile, and another tile somewhere else that is the target of a spell shooter

Actuially, the more I think of it the more I think the team dungeon has pretty much all of these on display!
Was unable to (permenantly) kill off ian_scho (Haynuus), Ameena, oh_brother (Westian), money (Falkor), raixel (Petal) and Lord_Bones (Aurek) in the DM D&D game Time's Champions!

CONGRATULATIONS TO THOSE WHO MADE THE GAME WHAT IT WAS - GREAT!
User avatar
PicturesInTheDark
Arch Master
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:47 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by PicturesInTheDark »

Speaking of which... any chance to see it in CSBwin including the graphics now that Zyx demonstrated that graphics can be adjusted quite brilliantly?

I still have the Alpha version somewhere... but never got very far without the graphics... they are looking good in DM for PC... but again.. the key movement problem for me!

BTW: You got mail ;o)

Regards, PitD
User avatar
beowuuf
Archmastiff
Posts: 20687
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 2:00 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK

Post by beowuuf »

The graphics.dat is not functional in the team dungeon, unlike conflux II, merely for looks - so you can play without : )
And it needs to be finished first before it can be converted finally to csb4win for release, but there may be no harm in someone converting it (in xtreme expert mode) to see how it plays at the moment : )

mail: got it, rpelied to it : )
Was unable to (permenantly) kill off ian_scho (Haynuus), Ameena, oh_brother (Westian), money (Falkor), raixel (Petal) and Lord_Bones (Aurek) in the DM D&D game Time's Champions!

CONGRATULATIONS TO THOSE WHO MADE THE GAME WHAT IT WAS - GREAT!
User avatar
PicturesInTheDark
Arch Master
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:47 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by PicturesInTheDark »

Well the extreme expert mode might be fun... I think I'll give it a try at some point. The problem with cloning is: can all the twists you can apply to a dungeon by cloning be achieved otherwise? Or is it still the only resort in some cases?

Regards, PitD
User avatar
beowuuf
Archmastiff
Posts: 20687
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 2:00 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK

Post by beowuuf »

lol, i didn't want to answer my own question because i could be wrong : )
i am sure that there is no easy way to do things with texts - triggering of multiple ones, triggering of ones on special tiles...but even then, i could be wrong (I'm waiting to see what zyx does to work around some of the thigns he's encountered)
i also don't think the monster effects (live chesting, complex item dropping) are possible

Multiple teleporter function is already possible, for example - teleporter trains for multiple destinations, and RTC can just have multiple items on the sane square. I think Paul mentioned spare object places that could be devoted for whatever - so dual action teleporters cou.d be voted on for one of the spaces...

extreme expoert mode - i just meant when converting, remember i nthe options to tick EVERYTHING!
Was unable to (permenantly) kill off ian_scho (Haynuus), Ameena, oh_brother (Westian), money (Falkor), raixel (Petal) and Lord_Bones (Aurek) in the DM D&D game Time's Champions!

CONGRATULATIONS TO THOSE WHO MADE THE GAME WHAT IT WAS - GREAT!
User avatar
PicturesInTheDark
Arch Master
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:47 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by PicturesInTheDark »

I'm using all the ticks in the options already as a standard ;o)

Maybe some of the problems can be adressed with the DSA functionality, but since this is still very much untested so far we might encounter new problems. My point being: since you already made the effort of putting the potential problems nicely in a list it would be a shame not to try and solve them one by one or see how they can be avoided right from the start if possible.

Regards, PitD
User avatar
beowuuf
Archmastiff
Posts: 20687
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 2:00 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK

Post by beowuuf »

also, i think if i answer my own question, people will be all 'ah, then its ok' when i haven't used CSBuild/RTC enough to know if these problems are actually circumvented, or if provisions are made, like some DSA thigns, as you say they are untested
i want people who've tried it to comment : )

If there's any big push to convert all the current dungeons such as you were doing, or conversion to RTC, then these are going to crop up in at least mildrew, enfers and dm:alt - and possibly others, since it was a good way of circumventing Dmute object limits
And I know sphenx did a few effects like that for fun in some of his releases - i forget how he did the multi-funcitoning knight...
Was unable to (permenantly) kill off ian_scho (Haynuus), Ameena, oh_brother (Westian), money (Falkor), raixel (Petal) and Lord_Bones (Aurek) in the DM D&D game Time's Champions!

CONGRATULATIONS TO THOSE WHO MADE THE GAME WHAT IT WAS - GREAT!
User avatar
PicturesInTheDark
Arch Master
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:47 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by PicturesInTheDark »

Hmm. I prefer to have dungeons who do not crash, no matter if with or without clones. My knowledge of the various effects is second-hand since I did not make an own dungeon yet but the idea from my point is to ease the time for the creator (not having to look for nasty side effects if possible) as well as the player/tester (not having to ask for new updates) if possible. However that can be achieved best is fine with me. If we all learn something about the reasons how and why in the process, even better.

Regards, PitD
Post Reply