DMT 2 - Design

[Rasmus]

I decided to start a new topic because the problem is rather large and i think it will have many ideas..
In DMT 1 I wasn't completly satisfied with how I handled the actions and the spell runes.

The problem is that the mouse are used for navigating the view, and can therefore not be used to click on runes or actions.
I'm a little bit tired on using quickcommands for predefined spells and actions, so I ask if anyone else have some good idea on how I can alter the system so that I can press runes and actions while I'm running thought the dungeons.
I was wondering, maybe the the number tangents 1-6 can decide the runes and space cast them, but what about multible actions?

Anyone got any fresh ideas?

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It depends on what you want. What is your aim.

How should the players move through the dungeon?
step movement with 90° turning, smooth transition/free look/free movement but no up/down (like doom)

What should the player be able to do?

What should your game be like?
is it more action - paced , strategy or interactive movie like(ok ok, I guess it is action oriented )
Game components, like switches. How would they work, how will you make these consistant.
What elements will your dm clone have.
less than in original dm?/ more than in original dm?/buttons: in dm you had 3 types : gem holes, big switches and tiny switches.

Will you stay faithful to the dm-original?
4 champions/one champion

multiple actions per item/one action per item

spell system _ rune system/ spellsystem - icon system(like wow)

/inventory yes no etc.

There are confilcts when trying to combine one with the other, as you noted.
I think you have to answer questions like these beforehand to make yourself clear, where the road is going and what restrictions you get.
Trade one feature in to get another. I cannot really make a suggestion when I do not know what you are aiming at, game wise.
I can only guess that you want to make a 3d version of dm, but that quite sums it up.
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I would probably make the game step move- based with 90° views, so you can use the keyboard for moving around.
Keyboard will not work with super smooth movement if you do not use both hands on the keyboard(alt for straving left right)

Space(or "i") could open up inventory, maybe there is space left on the screen for a quick bag inventory spot where you shove all the collected stuff into firstplace, then later divide it accordingly to the champions. (drag and drop, select multiple and drop)
With the right mouse button free (because "i" or space is used for inv)
you can now use rmouse for something.(dm used rmouse for 'inv - dungeon view' swapping)
keyboard-use has made room for the mousepointer to act on a plane in front of the dungeon view.
....................
well, I stop here, because maybe you do not want 90° and then this all is for the trash bin, really :O

[Rasmus]

Thanks for your respons
Nope, I don't want 90 degrees turning, it should be free and moved with help of the mouse.
The mouse are already restricted to this and can not be used to move a arrow, except of in inventory mode.
I still want multiple actions like "swing", "chop" and "parry" to each weapon.
I want to be able to be inside a battle still use runes one by one and finally cast the spell.
I will only have one character.
How the switches and such works inside the dungeon are no problem, if I mark a switch or simular I will only activate the switch and not attack with my weapons.

Well, if I get this to work I will increase the battle strategy and not only press the mousebutton or some tangent when batteling..

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if you have only one character, it gets much easier.
in knights of the old republic, you could cycle through 3 attack modes with the middle mouse.
the stance of the yedi you played would shift accordingly(holding the lightsabre to the side, behind your head and above or something different, you get the idea).
So pressing the middle mouse, mmouse would result in swing then chop then parry.
then swing again.
for spells maybe use a radial menue, this should be transparent
activated by the rightmouse button rmouse. Some shooters did that.
while in that menue mode (got there by pressing rmouse or holding rmouse, leaving would be releasing rmouse or pressing rmouse again)
ok, while in that menue mode with the radial aligned runes, you would select the desired runes by moving the mouse pointer or mouse cursor to the direction of the desired rune. (if you had only 4 runes, you would select(if you used 360° for your radial menue, which I would not recommend) you would select with 4 runes North direction rune A , South or East or West. You get the idea, I hope.
the menue should be less powerful than looking around the gameworld, that means: If you want to move, the menue will disappear or be highly transparent.
The menu has options that are needed:
the down ward way, I would use for cast spell.
you also need backspace(cancel rune) and the runes. Then there should be an indication what you already casted.
2 options:
A: like dm, a line where the cast runes are being displayed or :
B: several circles that get bigger, either to the top of the screen or to the bottom of the screen.
for a lo oh ven you would first select lo then it gets highlighted, another row appears (bigger circle around the existing)
and you then select oh rune. Then finally same procedure , ven.
This means you would have 4 circles that are like a onion skin lying above or below each other.
ok, well that´s about it.

[Rasmus]

I didn't quiet get the onion ring circles, maybe you could give draw a fast picture of it if posible. I agree with the middle mouse swaping beetween action. But I am abit worried about the hold down rightbutton to choose runes. I think I tried that in DMT 1 and got annoyed about not beeing able to look around when choosing the runes. Another thing is that I had to create an extra runebar for the inventory or simular. It got abit to complicated for the player..
What do you think of a solid runebar somewhere on the screen that I can use in the inventory and outside, but when I'm outside I could have some short command for choosing the runes. Maybe the runebar can move to the center of the screen automaticly when holding the right mousebutton and back again when releasing it, maybe that feels more natural.
And what about using the middle mouse scroll button to navigate between the runes and the right mousebutton to choose them. But still, that would maybe make it weird if both the "erase rune" and "cast spell" button are with them. It may not give the launching spell effect to the player...

ps. I don't want to make it clear that one way is better than the other, I'm just brainstorming and later on I / we can decide what would work best!

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ps. I don't want to make it clear that one way is better than the other, I'm just brainstorming and later on I / we can decide what would work best!

of course!

tried that in DMT 1 and got annoyed about not beeing able to look around when choosing the runes

I believe it would be cool to focus on a point , like a monster when casting runes . Does not necessarily have to be a
disadvantage. I did not test out DMT 1, so I do not know what the problem was, really.

if you wanted,
you could still move around with the keyboard keys , even turn, the sight(where the mouse pointer is/where the character is looking atm) would be fixed, maybe would intelligently move to a position that is appropriate.
(center if looking at walking monster, or a lock mode where you always look at e.g. a monster that you targeted first)

the onion skins are basically 4 menues consiting of the 4 rune sets, that are radially positioned around the cursor and not square , like a normal menue.
I cannot right now make a picture, this has to wait I am afraid..but it is essentially the side menue moved to the cursor, with tree - like structure. A picture is in order, I will scribble something the next days.

[Rasmus]

ps. I don't want to make it clear that one way is better than the other, I'm just brainstorming and later on I / we can decide what would work best!

Haha, i meant that I wanted to MAKE IT CLEAR

I guess I know what you mean. Four onion skins with four rune sets, and that the skin with the active runes are enlarged.
In inventory mode the skin could always be moved up to the top left corner for easy use.
This would work. I don't know how the creature locking would work out. I edmit that it sounds nice in theory, but will it be ennoying or confusing? What if I want to run away from a group of monsters and at the same time cast fireshield or something like that. Then it the effect would be opposite if I somehow happens to target a monster... But I agree that I also have the felling that navigating thought the runes only can be done with the mouse.

I like the union idea, I think it's simple and the player will easely see where to press and be prepered for what it is that will come up.

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I edmit that it sounds nice in theory, but will it be ennoying or confusing?

of course it (targetting or locking) is annoying. It should probably be soft selection - targetting only.
So it should be easy to break out of the locking mechanism and not being forced into it until you press x again.
It should feel natural..

In a way that it focusses near the monster until something more urgent happens. Until you break the focussing,
be it accidentially or on purpose. Locking should be highly fragile. Sometimes, as I see it the spells should not really
target a single monster. Targetting should only be a slight hint at where the projectile or spell is going to fly through in a straight line.
Focussing is needed (you can focus along the perspective lines or underlying grid, whatever)
because when you do not have the mouse to look around, because you select actions or spellrunes - there has
to be a way to nevertheless run around and see what is going on. If you want you could say that dm had a focus of view, too.
It focussed on the middle of the dungeon view always. What you try to add here , is to have sometimes free look with the mouse.
Targetting would be cool, if you fight against a flying creature and need to cast a fireball in the direction of this creature.
Maybe the locking of the view can be parted into "Sky" and "Horizon".

for radial menue, something like this:
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/22 ... _super.jpg

Possibly the player could still look around freely with the cursor pointer, but if you press rmouse the screen gets locked where it is, or moved
into position: sky , position_horizon/ground(predefined positions).
you can release the lock always by letting the rmouse go(not pressing anymore)

if you press rmouse then, menue gets activated, the mouse would be used to navigate the menue.
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The menue, with transparency on and stuff like that, could feel too sci fi like...just as a side note.
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I am just thinking: maybe it would be possible to only have freelook if you press rmouse, and if not have the mouse be like
in original dm. that is vice versa to the above approach.
there then should be a way to cast spells and attacks while in freelook mode, too. anyway that is it for now.

if you have first concepts , please keep us informed

[Rasmus]

You have given me alot to think about.. I think I have the first concepts clear for me. Just have to try it out, but that may take a while.
I was thinking something like this:
Runebar as you proposed, like a (union). And that it move to center view when holding right mousebutton. Otherwise the runebar are in one of the corners.
I think the locking method shouldn't affect the view, insted it should effect a cross pointer on the screen. So that fireballs etc. can be launched in other angels than only straight forward..

I will keep in touch about the progress and thanks for all your help!

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you´re welcome. take your time and i am eager to see how it all turned out. thanks