Charging money to play custom dungeons?

[Jgames]

Taking this opportunity, i would like to suggest one thing; Could the community here, create dungeons, and sell them for a price?, that is, i am willing to pay for good dungeons (with either RTC or DM pc version). This way, we all could have quality DM games.

[beowuuf]

As for the 'community' selling dungeons - not really. Somethign funny happens when you introduce money to a creative process. Sudden'y the creative person 'owes' somethign to the person who bought it. When all dungeons are a labour of love, that simply must be undertaken around about a real life. And what compensation should someone like Adamski or zyx give back if a dungeon has a bug?

Plus, how much should such a small community charge? The actual true value of the work would place the real price far beyond reasonable for each individual member. Not to mention distribution of funds - all dungens tend to borrow graphics, ideas, and also rely on the clone engine under them. That's far more peopel to compensate. And thats' assuming some copyrighted material (such as the whole DM graphic sets and dungeon, creatures, etc themselves) are not being used.


If you want more dungeons, I'm afraid we'll always be at the 'mercy' of the creative flow of those willing to build thigns because they want to, who we are lucky enough to have share their work. Trying to make it a commercial exchange is probably doomed.

If someone does want to ever build a clone or dungeon looking for donations, as long as they have stripped out all copyrighted material, they can always try. Sites liek Kickstarter make it easy. I don't think a concerted effort to put a price - and thus force deadlines, workload, expectations, and bug fixing demands on any designer - will yield any results thoguh. Quite the reverse, probably.

[Gambit37]

I completely agree with everything Beo said about charging for dungeons: it's just not an option.

However, it would be entirely possible to develop a custom DM style game from scratch, with it's own unique graphics, that could be sold for money. Both DSB and RTC could be made commercial games if they removed all the copyrighted DM assets...

[Jgames]

I see the implications thx;
Let it be a competition with prizes then, something like a yearly competition with 5 dungeons winning.
Some retro machines have their gaming competition, where the winning teams gets money prizes and the games are distributed for free.
Example (msx games competition)
http://msxdev.msxblue.com/?page_id=5
What do you dungeon masters think?

[Paul Stevens]

I spent about 1000 hours getting CSBwin to work.
Some additional hours - say 1000 - on CSBuild and
updates to make Conflux work.

Zyx has spent some time making conflux work.
I have no idea but will say 1000 hours to be
extremely conservative.

OK. 3000 hours. I expect we should get about
50 dollars per hour. Say $150,000.

Here is what we can do.......We will accept you
as our agent. You pay us 1/2 upfront to keep
us alive as we build the dungeon....$75000.
As the cash comes flowing in, you will get 2/3 and
we will get 1/3. But this is negotiable. Make
us an offer.

[Jgames]

sadly, i am poor man, wish i had $75000, i would donate it eventually (lies)
But i can contribute around $5 or $10 for a good dungeon, and if say 200 people buy Zyx's dungeon then he would pocket $2000 which is not a lot, but better than nothing.

[Trantor]

I totally agree that everything we do here should be kept without any monetary interest. This community is so great because we all share a common deep love for DM that is not tarnished by any form of financial interest. As soon as money comes in, love for the game is not the driving force behind anything creative that we make happen, and that can't be good.

[Gambit37]

Nobody here builds dungeons because they want to be paid for it, they do it for fun, learning, creativity and all sorts of other reasons. But not money. There is no commercial incentive in building dungeons for a 20+ year old game which is no longer published.

If a dungeon designer did charge for their dungeon, and charged a fair price representing the amount of time invested in that dungeon, the price of the dungeon would be much higher than anyone would be willing to pay for it (as Paul S has demonstrated). And there definitely aren't 200 people who would be willing to buy a dungeon for an old game. You're looking at the hardcore on this site which is at best 20 or so people.

If you truly want to be paid for game development (of any sort), then either create and release your own commercial game, or work for a company that makes games.

[beowuuf]

Yeah, Paul's breakdown shows exactly how much work would need to be compensated.

AS an observation, GG did actually put a donation suggestion on DMute. It gave nothign extra, just a siggested 'registration' fee. I think he said less than 10 people ever did that. And DMute was far less devisive 'back in the day' than the various clones engines, etc that are around just now. I don't think anyone has ever blasted GG for having that registeration comment in DMute. However it's telling he did not put that in RTC (to my knowledge)

Anyway, as I suggested earlier, if anyone did every want donations for working on a dungeon, I would recommend kickstarter as the means. I would also recommend the 'ransom' model that some RPG writers have started to use. Basically, the idea is that you set a reasonable total donation you'd be willing to release the work for. If you get that amount, you release the thing for free. It seems to work well for drumming up genuine supporters (who you can set up rewards for, even if they are silly thigns) and yet still ensure that you don'#t have to worry about no one playign the thing, nor people 'pirating' it.

It might be an incentive. Three months working o nthe dungeon in the background, and if you don't get your donations, you keep working as and when you can, and if there are sufficient donations, you get enough of a kick to do all the finishing touches that are annoying, and have a legitimate reason to release instead of surrender to feature creep.

Anyway, I don't think the community is the right size to support even this. And certainly, not with enough regularity to actually encourage rather than stifle dungeon creation (why bother making one while someone else is, siphoning all the money away).

Thoguh as Paul reminds us of the true cost of the creativity we get for free and take for granted, can I just say a gigantic 'THANK YOU@ to anyone who has had a creative impulse, created something amazing, and shared it with us?

[Jgames]

Don't get me wrong, i am not advocating commercial software vs free soft like Win/Linux type of things.
I just see that over the years, a lot of free games made by communities, either takes years to accomplish (around 8 years is common), or are done but the quality and finish touches are not good.
By making "donations" towards the dungeon authors as in here, we could eventually get better dungeons, with better details, and maybe also official walkthroughts.
This i think will benefit both (gamers and dungeon authors)
Damn, i played Sofia's Reactor more than Risen, or a pile of games i bought without playing more than hour in them.

[Sophia]

Anyone who thinks they can make money selling something using the DSB engine is:
1. crazy
2. welcome to try, without having to pay me a cent.

Note that I said "the DSB engine" because the DM graphics are another matter that will have to be sorted out.

[beowuuf]

I'm still don't think the donations that this community could assemble would be any form of incentive. I don't think they would anything more than a nice gesture, rather than an actual reimbursement (trust me, lots of people like Conflux or Tower of Champions, yet I really can't imagine zyx nor Adamskigetting 200 donations, certainly not of $20. And certainly, I cannot imagine the community managing to give both that amount, and certainyl tthey couldn't then go on to give anythign to the other designers who have produced work on engines, or dungeons, or other projects.)

I'm not sure why a thing someone hasn't got enough passion for to finish for fun, with no expectations, will suddenly get finished if it becomes an enforced endeavour with money on the line.

Maybe donations of time? It always seems like dungeons need playtesters, or even if a released dungeon is played, eventually, many people arent' vocal, or son't stick with it. Perhaps we need to start making donation pledges, offering x numbers of hours per day / week for x days / weeks at either a) beta, or b) release, and a promise to review.

That seems to be a more meaningful donation that would let peopel knwo their creations would get an audience. Certainly it can be more meaningful to a creative endeavour than a small donation.

[beowuuf]

I don't think jgames is saying 'make money', he really is just saying 'have donations as an incentive to get more peopel committing to their creations' and perhaps also getting a little bit more professional.

So sophia, how much of a donation drive would get you to commit to creating Reactor II under DSB?

[Ameena]

I think the best incentive for people to finish dungeons on here is the (hopefully positive) feedback they'll get from people who play through their creation. That and probably the feeling of accomplishment that comes from actually finishing the building of the thing in the first place .

[beowuuf]

Yeah, I think a hard time bank. I knoiw I used to play alot of dungeons, and now hardly play any of the new ones - usually some of the small ones, and usually only able to do it for a few days in a row. Perhaps a commitment to an hour a day would actually get me to finsih them

[Gambit37]

Actually, if I were paid to build custom dungeons rather than websites, I would jump at the chance. But I'm speaking of it as a fulltime job: I certainly wouldn't build dungeons for money if the money was a few small donations from 5 people, that's not going to put food on the table now is it?

[Adamo]

If someone likes custom dungeons, it would be better to donate something for the mainteance of this forum and Ency. This great forum exist already 10 years on payable server (= it works well, has no lags, it`s protected, plus it doesn`t have annoying commercials) only due to the Cow`s kindness (he put his own hardworked money to pay for the site mainteance, and I don`t think it wasn`t much). We better don`t think about earning on dungeons, cause it might end very bad.

[Hajo]

I think many artists and developers are already happy if people actually notice their work. In these days of everybody, including extremely skilled people, being on the internet and creating things, mostly for free, it is hard enough to have ones work recognized in between all the other works.

Also, I second the former posters that it would be a terribly bad idea trying to make money out of the work of others (the engine developers and former dungeon designers, if you build on their efforts).

[Gambit37]

I think many artists and developers are already happy if people actually notice their work.

But artists would be even happier if people *paid* for their work. Most artists have to do other jobs to make a living; there are very few who make a living directly from their art alone.

[Zyx]

Currently our community is (mostly) based on freely and openly giving to the community, and reciprocal sharing. It's an incredible warm community. Any project related to money shouldn't corrupt that.
I think symbolically donating as a thank you or encouragement would be a boost. Donation can be postcard, money, time, drawing, anything participative. Recipients shouldn't expect donations, and donors shouldn't expect return or rights.

I don't think DM-like games are obsolete. On mobile, Iphones and other small portable devices, they're particulary adapted.

I think it would be possible to carefully design a lucrative project where:
- everyone can participate
- the shares of benefits are clear for everyone
- we, as a community, hold the rights

An example:
- Have a debate and pool about which engines could be used for our commercial purposes, what licence the owner would agree to (I propose a Creative Commons Licence), would it be open source or not, and what share of benefit the engine should represent (to be distributed among the developers)
- Have a debate and pool about which graphics and sounds we could use for our commercial purposes, what licence the owners would agree to (I propose a Creative Commons Licence), and what share of benefit they should represent (to be distributed among the graphic and sound designers)
- Have a debate and pool about dungeon designing, etc., and what share of benefit the dungeon should represent
- Have a debate and pool about distribution, who takes care of it, and what share of benefit the it should represent.

If there is a clear consensus, and will, and skills, and understanding of the tasks, then we may start licencing, producing and distributing.
Then for each dungeon sold (let's suppose a pay-to-download site), we share the benefits, for example:
- 33% for the engine/conversion/adaptation to be distributed among the developers (it's up to them to have reached an agreement on the distribution of their share)
- 33% for graphics/sounds creators (proportional to the number of graphics/sounds use in the dungeon)
- 33% for the dungeon designer
- 1% for the maintenance of the site.

To avoid to much financial investment, we can build a pay-to-download site. To avoid to much pressure from the buyers, we could sell the game 1 euro.

Oh well, I don't know if it's a good idea, even if it's doable.

[Rasmus]

I agree with the no money policy..
Even if it took me more than 1000 hours to complete DMT 1 with its own graphic, I didn't even think about selling it.
First of all I don't think I would have gotten the warm welcome that I got when signing up here trying to sell something.
Secondly this forum is like a big family sharing ideas and dungeons, and I don't think it would have been the same way if people was trying to earn money of eachother.
But I would like a donation box where the dungeon creators and the once creating the engine could get some donations.. I would gladly give away some cash if the dungeon are really good and alot of work was behind it.
This would be really good for those creating the engine, often they only create dungeons like the original dm and csb, and therefore only get played when new dungeons are used. A 50 / 50 donation policy would be good thing here I think (and ofcourse some money to keep the forum running).

[Jgames]

I agree with Rasmus, i would also give money to Dungeon authors and creators.
The donation box is a good idea.
There also an important thing, the dugeon authors must provide an official manual (in PDF or similar, containing story, hints, and most importantly a walktrought with maps)

[Ameena]

What? Why? DM and CSB didn't come with walkthroughs and maps - not in their original manuals. Yeah, guides were brought out separately, but it's hardly a requirement that a game must have some kind of written document on how to beat it. And maybe not everyone wants to write a backstory for their dungeon either.
Personally, I'm not too keen on someone telling me what they think I "should" do as part of the thing I'm creating because I feel like it. If I make a dungeon, I'll put into it what I want, not what someone else thinks should be there .

[beowuuf]

And so the entitlement begins! Not only do they have to produce a dungeon, they must actually sink further time into the not fun documentation process, AND produce a spoiler ruining all their hard work for people that can't be bothered to put in the time to play it bnefore they get considered for a donation? Why is their own work not enough? Why can't the community play the game and produce the maps and walkthroughs themselves like any other game?

[Paul Stevens]

authors must provide an official manual

There also must be some sort of money-back
guarantee that the game is as described and
will not crash or have dead-ends -- without
having to provide a lot of paperwork and
traces as proof. Then perhaps I would 'donate'
my $10.

[Gambit37]

^ Quite!

I guess this discussion is another example of how "the masses" think that something free has no value. Luckily, the masses on this forum have a little more insight than that.

[Paul Stevens]

I think maybe my problem is that receiving a
one-hundred dollar donation is almost an insult.
If you were to offer me $7500, I would say "Thanks
but no thanks -- I quit working for money eleven
years ago. But I would appreciate a detailed and
thoughtful review."

Other authors obviously feel differently because
I see that some ask for donations.

[Bit]

Pfft - all we need is a connection from the coin slots to paypal and the inscription 'enter at your own risc'.
Perhaps add a 'three-in-a-row' subgame at the slot too. And a voice that whispers 'your death brings new life' when you die.

No really, I'm tired to get phone calls of my provider to rent(!) another safety software (should they be safe by default - and by law?). Not that I say that the theme of the topic is absolutely wrong or right - a lot of good arguments have been written, but it's always the wrong people that get the money.

[Zyx]

You can't expect receiving 100$ from a gamer. At least, that's well beyond my expectations - though I had pleasant surprises in my life from mankind. But you could receive 1000 donations of 10$.
Besides, I think participation is even more important that monetary retribution. In my case, I like the way Conflux was done because it involved dozens of artists and betatesters before and dozens of competitors, mappers, hinters, tale tellers and bug reporters after. I couldn't have done it alone and most participants injected something and got something bigger in return, me included. That's quite an experience and I wish we could generalize this level of interaction.

[Gambit37]

I like the way Conflux was done because it involved dozens of artists and betatesters before and dozens of competitors, mappers, hinters, tale tellers and bug reporters after... I wish we could generalize this level of interaction.

We can. We setup a game development company and do it for real