Ultimate training.

[thec]

Hey. First off I want to tell you how much use I've had from this forum the last few days while exploring dungeon master. I've been playing this game now and then from it's released (was the 3rd game I ever played, and I played it back in 1987 or 1988 the first time). Even if I had a few consoles and am I hobby graphics programmer (demoscene programming) I don't play that many games but DM along with Elite and Phantasie III has always been favorites I've came back to.

Even if I have played it so many times in the past, I actually have never completed the game. I have alyways got stuck on the lower levels because the lack of training. Hence I'm training my characters and I've read some tricks and tips in these forums and on dmweb.free.fr which has helped massivly. Though I can't find suggestions for ultimate training, but just that you should be attacked (or have character in the grid next to you) and preferably be on the lower levels. I have yet to find answers to how people actually train, so I'll post my experiences first and hope that you will give me hints on how to improve.

I have 4 characters which are basicly adept fighters, expert ninjas, adept/expert priests and the fighters are expert wizards while the magic guys are 2nd, 3rd level of wizardry. I practice fighting with swoards using the fastest attack (swing, slash, jab), ninjas by punching. Priests by using the darken spell since that doesn't require potions and wizards with fireballs, light etc. I use level 4 or 6 (4 because it works the fastest, 444 for fireball for instance). But, questions:

Question 1:
I've read how the basic skillset works with hidden skills etc, but it doesn't seem to me that it would be any help to the TOTAL skill (NEOPHYTE NINJA for instance) by practicing different hidden skills. An EXP point is an EXP point to the basic skill no matter which hidden skill is practiced. True or false? Of course the hidden skill "parry" can be useful to learn, but that's not what I'm trying to ask.

Question 2:
When experience is calculated, does it matter if:
*Jab is used instead of thrust. Will I be able to perform more experience "per minute" with jab than with thrust?
* I use lower grade spells instead of higher rated ones?
* Which spells are being cast? Is a fireball more effective for learning than creating the ful light for instance?


If you want to share your way of training I'd be delighted!

Thanks guys. Even if you don't have answers for these two, I still had lots and lots of help from you already!

[thec]

Btw, the reason for me trying maximize the basic skill rather than the hidden ones are (except bragging rights) so they get as much health/stamina/mana as possible.

[Ameena]

First of all, welcome to the forum .
At the levels your characters are, that's fine for completing DM - I can never be arsed with training and I'm normally around Adept/Expert in most skills by the time I reach the end of the game. However, for those who do train, they use the Screamer Room (on Level 4, the one with the Purple Worms) early on and the Rat Room (Level 9) later, though the latter is preferable anyway 'cause you get more exp the lower down in the dungeon you are. And recently (a week or two ago, I think it was), a newcomer to the forum suggested yet another place, way down on Level 13, training with a Vorpal Blade against a particular Fire Elemental hidden away in some safe corner, since the different attacks on that weapon mean you can get Fighter and Wizard levels from the same weapon (Jab is Fighter...or is it Ninja...while Disrupt is Wizard, I think), and the Fire Elemental can be respawed quickly.
Now...as for your questions, I'm not enough into the mechanics to be able to answer the first question but I think I can have a go at the second - if Jab and Thrust both work on the same skill (Fighter), then I would presume that whichever attack is fastest (Jab, I'm pretty sure) would be the best to use since you get more attempts at levelling it up in any given amount of time since it refreshes quicker than the other attack.
As for spellcasting exp...I think casting higher-level spells will give you more exp. Casting stuff that you only just have the skill to cast (and sometimes gives you the "...needs more practice") message is best, 'cause you get exp for these as well. I'm not entirely sure, but I think certain runes may give you more exp...other than the Power Runes (Lo-Mon) of course. But I mean, a spell containing more runes will give you more exp than a spell with less, I'd've thought, so for example Vi alone gives a small amount of exp (though you get more if you cast it with Um than with Lo, and so on), but Vi Bro gives more exp and Vi Bro Ros (which might not be an actual potion but I can't remember so just pretend for the moment that it is ) gives even more. And then Mon Vi Bro Ros gives more exp than Lo Vi Bro Ros, because you used a better Power Rune.
Something like that, anyway . Don't worry - I expect someone who has more of a clue of the mechanics than me will be along shortly to re-explain all that with some accuracy and correctness .

[thec]

Ameena: thanks for your reply. I was more interested in the quantity vs quality. That is, many spells or high level spells... but in anyway I take your advice thankfully. I'm in the squeeker room practicing so far because I really wanna kick some serious butt when I get going and the multiplier is of course better in the rat room but it's not that big of a diference. I'll get down soon though because soon I can't get arsed to practice anymor here... I have a hell of a patience when it comes to tasks like practicing

[Ameena]

Well, you have more patience with it than me - I can never be arsed to train. I just havea quick training session on Ninja skills when I get down to, like, level 10 or so, where neither of my characters has any levels in it so I just grab a boulder and repeatedly chuck it until I'm levelled up enough for it to travel a square away (so I have to move to pick it up), at which point I switch to the other character and repeat the process. Then I carry on with the game .

[beowuuf]

Yes, welcome to the forums!

Actually, if you look elsewhere (I forget the thread, they were showing ioff their trained guys) someone has rightly pointed out that the area in level 12 with the constantly spawning fire elemental is the better place for training. maximum level depth, and in infinitely spawning foe to maximise the monster experience bonus no matter what you are doing.

As with Ameena, I don't train normally. I did it once when I first thoght I would be getting CSb, and wanted to maximise my DM characters fr that. Plus see what was at the limit of the master levels. Ah,the days before internet Someone else who knows the maths better might be able to help, I haen't really looked through the technical documentation side.

[thec]

beowulf: Thanks. the downside to the fire elemental is that you constantly have to cast fire protection shields and in general be ready... in the squeeker and rat room you can take a break with nothing worrying you. I suppose I'll change my mind when I try it

[beowuuf]

I believe the monster bonus carries even if you aren't right beside them. And as for fire protection shields - best priest levels The area below the rorating pits of level 12 should also be free of other critters

I always found the walking backwards and forwards to generate more monsters bugged me in the rat area, and the same is true with the screams (though I think it triggers closer)

[thec]

This is how far I've come in about 3 days of playing... hardcode lvl 4 squeek generator training Can't wait to conqueror the tombs!

Sorry for the tacky screenshot couldn't bother to make a better one... the inventory isn't in order either.... just take it for the stats.

[Jan]

Cool, nice stats. I never have the nerves for too much training. And, wow, another lover of oldies-but-goldies music (*)! Welcome to the forums!

(*) Well, I think Janis Joplin looked better, but meh.

[thec]

Well it was more a diss to boris being so tiny... no offense to the awesome Janis Joplin tho.

[Vytel]

... And recently (a week or two ago, I think it was), a newcomer to the forum suggested yet another place, way down on Level 13, training with a Vorpal Blade against a particular Fire Elemental hidden away in some safe corner, since the different attacks on that weapon mean you can get Fighter and Wizard levels from the same weapon (Jab is Fighter...or is it Ninja...while Disrupt is Wizard, I think), and the Fire Elemental can be respawed quickly.

Correct! You can gain both fighter and wizard levels with the Vorpal. Actually to gain fighter levels you can jab the flame with the rapier also (or punch it to gain ninja levels). As you can imagine it won't do it any harm but you'll gain the same xp. Personally, I think that this way the whole thing goes faster because the game doesn't lose time displaying numbers.

I believe the monster bonus carries even if you aren't right beside them. And as for fire protection shields - best priest levels The area below the rorating pits of level 12 should also be free of other critters

On Amiga version 3.6, in order to benefit from the monster bonus you have to stand in front of it because it has to attack you.
Also referring to weapon attacks, to get the bonus you have to target an enemy. I give an example: standing next to my flame-friend facing the wall, you need to jab 10 times to become neophyte fighter but only 5 if you jab facing the flame.

the downside to the fire elemental is that you constantly have to cast fire protection shields and in general be ready... in the squeeker and rat room you can take a break with nothing worrying you.

Yes, but training there you can have archmasters in weeks, not months
Anyway, welcome to the forum

Very happy new year to everybody

Vytel

[thec]

yeah, I'm cruising down the levels atm and will for sure try that trick. thanks Vytel.

[Lord_BoNes]

First off, welcome to the DM forum.

When it comes to XP gained by spellcasting...
I'm pretty sure that it goes upon the amount of mana used to actually cast each rune for the given spell (in other words, the more expensive the runes, the more generous the XP). Meaning that the higher level spells and the one's that require more runes to cast will be your best bet.
And as Ameena said, casting spells that basically have a 50/50 chance to cast also give you more XP (EG: a neophyte wizard casting a LO fireball... once you go up a level you never fail to cast it). I believe that there's a bonus in there somewhere for "pushing the limits of your abilities, while still being actually able to succeed".

[thec]

For my late levels I've run the mana potion alot since it seems a bit hard even for experienced priests to cast and I'm up to << master level now so I guess it worked...

[Maven]

How much experience you get for casting a spell depends on five things:

• The level of the spell
• The power of the spell
• Whether the spell succeeds or fails
• The level of the dungeon
• How long it has been since you have been attacked.

For the exact numbers, see the post here:
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 39#p105339

The thread is 6 pages long, but it tells more about each of those factors. It has some decent information about hidden skills and how they work and if they are even worth worrying about as well.

Here is the page that talks about Spells and which level they are and how much mana they take.
http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/195

I found that the YA (Stamina) potion gives by far the most Priest experience/mana. It is a level 2 spell and costs very little mana.
For Wizard experience it is the Oh Ven (Poison Cloud) spell. Although the simple light spell comes close.
For Ninja experience, climbing the rope is the fastest.

[thec]

Hey Maven thanks for the reply.

I've tried the rope trick down on level 11 or 12 but nothing seemed to happen and a lot of stamina was lost. Of course you should have your characters then supply with stamina potions, but that has to be taken into account. Thanks for the hints about using YA and FUL/OH+VEN spells! This is kinda was I was after, seems quantity wins

[Maven]

Yeah, you lose Stamina, and if there isn't a pit to climb into you don't actually go down. However, don't let that fool you, the experience is there. It's a pretty useless hidden skill, but the general experience makes up for it. And if you're still raising Priest levels as well, the Ya potions aren't wasted.

You should be using stat-raising potions as well. Especially the Dain potions for Wisdom, but the Vitality potions will help with the Stamina regen, and Dexterity potions and Strength potions help fighting abilities.

Read the post about potions for more info.
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... p?p=103661

[aster]

When gaining skill levels there is a sort of randomness to the increase you get in stats and health points, right?

So for those who are really into hardcode training, do you save often and then sometimes reload just before advancing a level to try and get different/better stats?

[beowuuf]

Yeah, there was even a term for that, forget what is was exactly.

[aster]

Yeah, there was even a term for that, forget what is was exactly.

Thanks. Is there is min/max amount that you can get, or is it always the same but with the distribution being different?

Is there some sort of list on how much you should go for at each level to make the most of each advancement?

[beowuuf]

The DM Encyclopaedia had the details, I think there is a spread depending on some factors. You could work it out form that.

[aster]

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find anything in the encyclopedia technical files about how many skill/health points can be gained with each level advance...

[beowuuf]

Darn, I would swear that table exists, but I guess its some research done by someone esle. Can't find it on any obvious threads. I'd suggest be happy with abump of twoin your base stats. I forget any range for health/stamina/mana. You could always experiment and feed the figures to Christophe

Sorry that wasn'y more help!

[aster]

I can find a table with xp granted for all sorts of different actions, but nothing about how many skill/health points one can get (min/max/average?) when advancing up a level.

Maybe it's burried in there somewhere, but I've also been unable to dig it out...

[oh_brother]

I don't recall seeing a table, but maybe the people who made clones (e.g. George Gilbert or Sophia) would have done research in order to mimic the effect. Then again maybe they just worked it out to look a bit similar to what is observed in DM.

I found that one point was disappointing, two was the minimum I would be satisfied with (I never reloaded and tried again though, I don't have the patience).

[Maven]

Here's the table:

http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 86#p105198

Intuitively, it's in a thread called "Leveling and stats". It has just been so long it's on page two.

[beowuuf]

Aha! I did check some of your thread, Maven, just only found ones about spellcasting, etc. Many thanks! Maybe Christophe can assimilate some of these experimental findings?