This game is awesome (a new player's perspectve)

[Leon]

So, I've been looking for a really good first-person RPG to sink my teeth into for a while now. I grew up on JRPGs, but ever since I played Shadowgate as a kid, I always wanted to play a real first-person western RPG. I've bought a slew of classic and not-as-classic CRPGs over the last year or so and always found them lacking something.

I was always left unsatisfied.

I'd heard about Dungeon Master, but had no idea of how to obtain a copy legally, and to be honest, I kind of brushed it off because it looked really dated.

Oh, what a fool I was!

So I got a hold of one of these fan clones - really great stuff here - after reading a post by Gambit saying that Wayne was okay with them.

I am just blown away. I am so impressed with this game's design that I actually felt the need to sign up to these forums and express my elation.

Suddenly, the game I'd been searching for for twenty some-odd years found me!

I want to talk about the game's design. It's just brilliant on so many levels.

First of all: There are no character classes. No stats you need to allocate, which means no min/maxing that has been a plague among CRPGs for 20 years now.

I was astonished by the character selection as I walked the Hall of Champions. There are so many characters that there are simply no need for "classes", and being able to rename the characters is a major plus. This is how it SHOULD be done!

This is such a good idea because it means it's impossible to "mess up" your character and be weaker. The power-gaming elements are kept to a bare minimum here, and I love that! You select which characters suit you best and you get right into the game. No need to fuss over comparisons of build X versus build Y, and how if you don't have build X you've made some kind of critical mistake and will have a more difficult time with the game.

Sometimes having too many options can be as oppressive as having none, yeah? Well, Dungeon Master gives me just enough options to wow me without stressing me out. I love it.

Now, onto the game's level design and difficulty.

The difficulty curve is perfect. The game really eases you into the labyrinth by being fairly linear at first. The dungeon seems to gradually get more and more complex and nonlinear the further you go, but it does so at such a slow pace that I felt confident and comfortable playing the game, even though I didn't read a guide and didn't even know who I had recruited into my party besides Iaido, who is quite clearly a fighter of some sort. That's beautiful.

The level design is so well done that it just blows me away. It's fun, it's logical, it doesn't seem to throw any obtuse nonsense in your path and expect you to just know what kind of logic the developers used when they made puzzle X.

The game is relatively simplistic, but it doesn't feel like it as you play it. It's excellent.

You can see where other CRPGs went wrong after playing this game. It's become so obvious to me now why I don't like many other first-person CRPGs. They just were not designed well compared to this game.

The level design and character generation system will make or break a game like this, and Dungeon Master nailed both.

You can even see this game's influence on Shadowgate.

I'm a modern gamer through and through, and I'm impressed at how well this game holds up today. It's brilliant. If I could shake the hands of its developers, I would, and I would thank them for teaching me how to make a good game.

Ahem. Sorry for gushing.

-Leon

[beowuuf]

Please gush, it's why we're in a forum dedicated to a 25 year old game, after all


You're right, I hadn't really thought of the fact that while experience does boost you in four areas, these aren't really classes in the classic sense, they are just the names of areas to be good in. The 'multi-classing' without any effort/comment drawn to it is great. I also like thjat you get experience, not from killing things, but just from doing what makes you better in that area. Swing a sword or throw an item or cast a spell and that's how you level up. seems obvious, but many systems focus on rewards for a goals/combat and not just rewarding doing the thing and getting better at it.


Anyway, welcome to the forums!

[Ameena]

Hey, welcome to the forum . That was a cool first post, and no worries about going on about how cool you think DM is - if none of us agreed with you there wouldn't have been a forum for you to join in the first place .
It'll be interesting to see what you think of CSB once you're done with DM. Which version are you using? RTC, DSB, CSBWin? Or some other one that I've forgotten?

[Leon]

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I said a lot of that after being caught up in the excitement, but I stand by it!

@Beowuuf: Yeah, it's really funny how ahead of its time this game was. I think RPGs really need to take a step back. I'm an aspiring (and I use that term loosely) game developer (and I use that term very loosely - cue crowd laughter), and so I'm going back through all the classics so that I can better understand video games on the whole. I'm really surprised that some of these older games did things so much better. More times than not, I've learned that the further back you go in a genre, the better it gets.

Case in point: Darklands has what I would consider the "first" Baldur's Gate-esque battle system, and I feel it does it better than Baldur's Gate did.

Good design really makes the game, and there's very much a science to it.

One of the games I studied intensely was the original Resident Evil: Director's Cut. I learned that the game's flow and level design, even its enemy design, was very scientific! The game is actually a glorified survival simulator that has more in common with the Oregon Trail than it does with horror games today. A lot of what people criticized about this game's design was deliberate and put in there for a purpose, to reach a specific audience, and to emphasize the "survival" aspects of survival horror. For instance, people considered backtracking to be a problem, but if you look at it like this: Your save rooms are your campsights, and the mansion is your home; the mansion is a jungle and the zombies and other baddies represent all of the threats within that jungle, it becomes clear that the backtracking is an integral part of the survival; we setup a home and we take control of the surrounding lands. This is what Resident Evil was all about. The "horror" aspects were there to induce a sense of real danger into the player, so that they didn't just play it, they survived it.

You'd be surprised at how deliberate these game developers can be in their designs. That's why I was gushing more than anything else. I was acknowledging the genius that goes into these games.

One day, hopefully I'll be able to make my own first-person dungeon crawler and put what I'm learning now to use.

I wish I would shut the heck up! Sorry.

@Ameena: I was playing um... this one from the front page of the DM Encyclopedia. But I don't really care for how slow the mouse movement is, so I will probably look for another. Any recommendations?!

[Jan]

Welcome to the forums, Leon, and thanks for sharing your views. You started quite late with DM - but it's better later than never.

As Ameena suggested, Dungeon Master is just a "starter" - if you want something that would really blow you away, try Chaos Strikes Back, a sequel to DM, using the same system and graphics, but a zillion times harder. Chaos Strikes Back (CSB) is really the game of the games, the king of them, a true masterpiece!

[Balthus]

When the game was released it was on a single 3 1/4 floppy disk that totaled just over 1 meg. Granted in '87 1 meg was massive, but think how precise the codes had to be to make the game work and look as good as it did. Unlike today, game developers back then had to code extremely tight.
CSB may be a challenge for you if you take it on. It is completely non-linear and you can actually get to the end in hundreds of different ways.
Try DM2. It was released in the early 90s.
Perhaps someone can clarify something. Was it Delos? Or was it Chaos? I could never figure out which of the two names Dragoth said.

[Paul Stevens]

But I don't really care for how slow the mouse movement is

I coded CSBwin so if the mouse response is slow, it
is my fault. The code comes from the original
Atari ST. The mouse cursor is done within the
game code, not on top of it. Therefore the mouse
cursor only gets updated when the game window
gets updated and the Atari only did that about
six times per second. After all, it was a 8Mhz
machine!!!

I don't remember anyone else mentioning such a thing.
Is is slow in linear motion? Or is there a latency in
starting/stopping? Perhaps it can be improved.
Perhaps it has been improved!!! What version are
you using?

It may be that people don't complain about it because
most of us use the keyboard for all the attacks, motion,
and spell-casting. We only use the mouse for manipulating
objects.

[Jan]

I've never ever witnessed a "slow mouse movement" in CSBWin. I was actually quite puzzled by that Leon's sentence too - perhaps we misunderstand it?

[Leon]

Ooh, I certainly will try CSB! Thanks!

I have a feeling I'm going to have to buy some graph paper soon...

Hi Paul.

I see what you mean! That explains why the mouse feels weird to me!

It isn't that it's slow, I guess, it's that it's a bit choppy? I'm using v12.100. Is there a newer version?

I actually stop noticing it the more I play, but it doesn't really feel right. It *feels* like there's latency, but there really isn't, the mouse movement just isn't very smooth, and so it jumps from one place to the next.

Your explanation helps me understand why, though. I did actually use the mouse for almost everything when I played, which is probably why I noticed it more.

That said, I really like how easily everything works. Just click the icon and the game pops up, no hassles. It's wonderful.

[Balthus]

I use the mouse for everything except movement. Maybe you could try upping your mouse sensitivity.

[Ameena]

Oh, btw, be sure to let us know if you manage to die in any horrible/embarrassing ways - we love hearing about that stuff (well, I do ), as well as any other fun times you have during DM (and, later, CSB and other dungeons if you play them too) .

[ian_scho]

Thanks for sharing your experience and emotion, Leon.

[Balthus]

How about stupid deaths? For me, it usually happened like this

Yay, I killed the dragon, now to rest and regain health and mana before the final assault on Chaos. I'm done playing for now. Preps two Mon fireballs. Turns towards the wall and cast both. Party dies. Turn off game.
Pick up game at a later date and time. Load game. Alright, game has loaded and I'm ready to........Gaaaaaaaaaaaah......... I'm four levels back from where I ended last time I played.......oh, hangs head in shame, I forgot to save my game.

I can't even begin to imagine the number of times I've done that.

Or casting a fireball down a long hall, chasing it down and catching up to it. Or poison bolts or lightning bolts, which ever, it always ended up with the same screaming death of my party.

[Leon]

Well, the only funny experience I've had was near the end of my game time last night.

First, the characters I chose at the start were Iaido, Chewbacca, some kid and some girl whom I never used. Clearly, I had no idea what I was doing.

So I'm going through what I can only assume are the very early parts of the dungeon, Iaido and Chewbacca hacking away at anything that moves. Chewbacca is wearing pants.

Up to this point, dungeon crawling has been a relaxed, leisurely experience with no real threats of any description. Then I come across this gate and I see what looks like a group of four mummies behind it. As the gate rises and the mummies approach, I think to myself, "Oh, how hard could they possibly b- oh my god help me!"

And that's when I realized Iaido isn't a tank.

Or I suck.

One of the two.

So the party explodes because the mummies looked at us funny - that is, everyone but the girl in the back whose name I forget now - and so I have her kick them, but it's to no avail, as beneath the mummies' wrappings is not decaying flesh, but what I can only imagine is some sort of hard metal shell that is specifically designed to repel any and all attacks.

She dies. The end.

I come on here to rant and rave about how great the game is.

[Balthus]

If you want two decent tanks for DM go with Sonja Shedevil and Stamm Bladecaster. Both start with decent weapons and Stamm comes with armor, good armor. Gothmog and Mophus should round that party out nicely.
I've always felt that there is one major drawback to DM. That is the ninja class. The only bonus that I could figure out for the ninja is that you are able to recover faster from throwing stuff and kicking. Either than that, I have never seen a decent use for the ninjas.
The kid sounds like Tiggy.

A warning. Tiggy Tamal, Wuuf the Bika and Gothmog. While these are, in my opinion, the best wizards DM has, their stamina drops rapidly. Which in turn lowers their food level quickly.

[beowuuf]

Tank is a relative term in DM, it's always better to be moving in the game rather than standing toe to toe. IF you have people with good priest levels and a few flasks, you can get to the stage where you can stand there against some nasty creatures, which feels good, but movement is the way to go!

Ninjas actually benefit from accuracy and avoiding blows and some weapons are tailored to them. Realistically they do feel like the secondary class, then again they are free health and stamina for your back guys to start with, and your front guys might find some tough opponents are actually easier to punch rapidly than slowly wear down with weapon blows!


And consider not taking the journeymen. Levelling up, like other games, has ever increasing experience goals. And you get stats each time you level. So a reincarnated or low level character can get stats faster at the beginning of the game than a journeyman. Up to you if you want to start with some more spells/attack options, but usually it's better to take the hit earlier then get a tougher character who is journeyman anyway reasonably quickly

[Ameena]

Lol, I've done that too, with the running-into-own-fireball thing, though only since I started playing DM on a downloaded version about ten years ago. Back on the Atari, we only used the mouse for everything - no wonder it took months to finish the game (oh yeah, and I was probably about five at the time ).
I'd agree with Wuffy that reincarnating is probably the better option in terms of ending up with higher stats. Also, you get to rename your characters that way. Reincarnating someone will wipe whatever skill levels (Fighter, Wizard, etc) they have, but will leave their stats as they are. So you can regain those early skill levels fairly quickly and get extra stat bonuses on top, since certain stats go up every time you gain a skill level.
On the subject of Ninja levels, don't they grant extra Anti-Fire as well? My Ninja training normally consists of getting down to about Level 9 or something with no levels at all, then having my first character repeatedly chuck something heavy, like a boulder, so that it lands directly at my feet. That way I don't have to move to pick it up - once I start having to do that (Journeyman level I think), I move to the next character and start again, and so on.
And yeah, tanking stuff isn't usually too effective in DM. Have you played Legend of Grimrock (released last month, tile-based dungeon crawler inspired by DM...which I still haven't finished 'cause I keep playing Minecraft, aarrrgh)? It's like that - keep moving or the mobs will probably squish you pretty quick (apart from crappy weak stuff like Screamers) .

[Leon]

Yeah, I always use hit and run tactics in these types of RPGs, but I honestly get so overcome with apathy that I sometimes go, "eh, it's only a game over."

I have not played Legend of Grimrock, but I hope to at some point!

I haven't even had the time to take another stab at DM, to tell you the truth.

I'm pretty much a tank in all games, though. The big hulking survivalist Ranger/Warrior. Give me strong muscles and a combat knife and I'm rarin' to go. Oh, is that a spear headed for our wizard? Don't worry - I'll get that.

Twelve arrows stickin' out of my back and I'm still swinging my trusty ol' two-hander. The wizard makes some off-color comment about my lack of finesse, and then I kindly remind him of the mental fortitude required to still be fighting after being hit by twelve arrows, while I pull my sword out of kill #357 and run to protect him.

Yeap.

So when I play this game, I'll be looking for that Half-Orc Fighter/Ranger with 19 Strength - or something analogous.

[beowuuf]

Halk or Stamm are definitely your guys then. Hissssa and Daroou (chewbacca) have good initial health with some magic to tide you over too.

[izzlorg]

Oh, btw, be sure to let us know if you manage to die in any horrible/embarrassing ways - we love hearing about that stuff (well, I do ), as well as any other fun times you have during DM (and, later, CSB and other dungeons if you play them too) .

well facing a wall and casting mon fireballs was a great stress relief...

played the day game was released, was first person anyone at the local Atari ST store (The Floppy Wizard - Houston, TX) to finish.

Regarding the shrieker / screamer room ... was there in the original version, I leveled all of my chars to max levels in there, great source of food too. by leveling in that room, the later monsters such as the knights, were easier to kill. I remember the first time I trapped chaos... was epic. So many hours spent on that game, loved it so much. the pressure plate puzzles were a lot of fun, and just the right difficulty.

To anyone who said they had a pirated version ... I call BS! FTL games (oids and dm) were uncracked for years. The "cracked" versions would bug out a couple of levels before the dragon.

I always played with the monsters ... wuuf the bika, gothmof, Hissa and chewie... char selection honestly didnt really matter. I 2 manned it after a few months, harder, but not by much, esp if you used the screamer room to level up. I guess that's why I play Horde on WoW.

Wish I still had my old list of spells including the poison flasks, i spent hours trying every possible combination, the 1st rune was power, so the number of permutations was relatively limited.

I had gotten out of the ST by the time of CSB... You all know about Steem and the 800K multi game packs from cracker groups like Automation, Cynix, Medway boys ... pretty cool loaders. 800 disk or so of 1-8 games per... might be worth a look..

BTW - interesting tip, get to the dragon, and go back up to the entrance of the 1st level. not sure if you had to make it that far, it's where I was when I went back up.

[Leon]

Halk and Stamm it is!

Thanks, Beowuuf, everyone.

I still haven't had the opportunity to take this game for a second spin.

The Guardian trapped me in some backwards world called Pagan and I'm struggling to find a way to acquire a weapon without stealing one...

Yeah, I like that game.

Will our hero ever get back to Dungeon Master!? Tune in next time for...!

Nobody cares...

[beowuuf]

Aww, no, it's always cool to hear about new adventures in the dungeons we know and love!


And welcome izzlorg, thatnks for sharing! As for going back to the start, it doens't trigger after the dragon, you need to go back before the dragon. Shocking but fun easter egg hinted at in the manual though!

[Ameena]

Pagan! Yay, I've played that game myself quite a lot in the past. Good fun and I can actually remember the intro off by heart, though I won't bore you by quoting it here since you've clearly only just watched it. Omg the world in Pagan is huge and there's loads that you don't even have to visit in order to complete the game. There's also a sneaky way to get some easy money without killing anything or getting caught stealing . I can remember when I first played that game, saving the game (or loading it) would take at least a couple of minutes. Nowadays, playing it on DOSBox, it's instant .